More interesting Rambus stuff...

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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...not on a technical level, but on a government level.

Everyone remembers when Rambus was found guilty of fraud in a Virgina court by Judge Payne, and ordered to pay millions in legal fees. As a result of that trial, the FTC launched a lawsuit against Rambus quoting this fraud verdict.

However, when Rambus appealed, the verdict was completely overturned. Of special note, Judge Randall Rader actually said that Rambus "disclosed far more than they were legally obligated to disclose" and noted that other JEDEC participants (such as IBM and Hewlett-Packard) were actually more guilty of non-disclosure than Rambus was (they COMPLETELY refused to divulge patent information that might be pertinent to SDRAM).

As a result of this complete reversal, the FTC changed its lawsuit basis against Rambus from fraud to "willful document destruction", stemming from their late-90's document retention program. Since Rambus had NEVER had a document retention program, they had amassed several hundred TONS of paperwork that needed to be sorted and removed (including junk office faxes and printed emailed jokes).

However, In the FTC's pre-trial court briefs though, they are still bringing up fraudulent non-disclosure practices as part of their case against Rambus. This case is interesting because it appears that the FTC case is being fueled and driven by Micron, who has retained legal counsel consisting mostly of former and current Federal Trade Commission employees (initially posted at congress.org's website, but is no longer there. However, it is still in Google's cache.

The big thing about this trial is the actual destructiveness it could potentially have to any open standards process. Everyone in this forum appears to love their really cheap DDR, even if it is costing the memory manufacturing industry billions in lost revenue. Rambus has asserted that it is the rightful owner of SDRAM and DDR technology (which has been acknowledged by Federal Circuit judge Randall Rader, the #1 undisputed authority on US Patent law, and teaches the subject at George Washington University. He is also a co-author of "Patent Law", a textbook used at over 40 law schools.

Now, I think it's safe to say that the MAJORITY of people have the impression that Rambus is "guilty as charged", even though the #1 patent law authority has taken Rambus' side in a well-documented case. It's also obvious that companies like Micron, Infineon and Hynix all have billions of dollars at stake if Rambus wins their cases against them. But what Judge Rader has asserted in his ruling in Rambus' favor is that open standards committees like JEDEC must make their policies CLEAR and ENFORCEABLE to the point where they can hold up in court. JEDEC failed to do so, which is what has allowed this case to proceed.

Of course, now you have the FTC badgering Rambus about "good faith" practices that could inevitably strip them of their patent rights. The big problem here is that the FTC has the power to rule in any way they choose, even if there's prior law that states they're wrong. This has often branded the FTC as a "kangaroo court", making them Judge, Jury and Executioner in the majority of its cases. It's rare that the FTC actually finds a company "not guilty" after launching a lawsuit against them. Most of their cases must be won on appeal, when it enters a "real" court of law (such as the federal circuit which ALREADY ruled in Rambus' favor).

So why is this case so important? Well, let's think about it from the 2 possible outcomes:

What if Rambus wins?

Of the 11 or so companies that manufacture SDRAM and DDR, 8 of them already pay Rambus royalties. The are 3 that do not: Micron (the 2nd largest memory manufacturer, a US company - plays 2nd fiddle to Samsung, the world's largest), Hynix (3nd largest memory manufacturer, formerly known as Hyundai) and Infineon (4th largest, formerly known as Siemens). The collective royalties they will eventually owe on SDRAM alone is nearly $1 billion dollars. If you look at the current state of these 3 companies, you'll see that each is losing millions of dollars per quarter because of the fierceness of the DRAM market, and with very good reason.

When the big thing was "Y2K", everyone in the 90's was in a furor to upgrade their systems. These systems needed ram, and the resulting demand for new memory products made it possible for everyone to make a huge profit. However, now that this demand has waned as a result of the world not blowing up, the memory market itself has far too many players, and each is trying to undercut the other. This causes memory manufacturers to sell products below their own cost in an effort to drive out the competition by forcing them to sink or swim.

It is in these companies interest (though not their BEST interest) to fight Rambus, as paying a $1B fee in back royalties at a time when they're already losing a billion or more per year has the capability of bankrupting any (or ALL) of these companies. The big problem here is that these memory manufacturers are now losing in court, and being forced to appeal. However, if they take this all the way to the supreme court and LOSE (assuming the Supreme court agrees to hear the case), they will be responsible for paying "treble damages", which awards them a TRIPLE royalty rate of an astounding 10.5% on DDR.

So, at this point it would be safe to say that Micron would be done for. They will likely go bankrupt anyway, since they are currently in a position of selling the shirt on their back to stay in business. Hynix is already being fed money by the korean government in an effort to keep them alive. If they lose in court, they will likely not be able to get any additional funding. They're already seeing huge a huge exodus of their top executives, because after all - the first rats to jump off a sinking ship are always the best swimmers.

The only survivor of these 3 memory manufacturers would be Infineon, since their huge parent company (Siemens) would have the funds to pay up. They also have the option of just canning Infineon altogether and just writing 'em down as a business loss.

Of course, this would also mean that Rambus essentially controls the entire memory market until someone can develop technology that outdoes what Rambus technology already does WITHOUT infringing on their patents.

But the bottom line is: Open standards would survive. Why? Because companies would still have incentive to participate in them WITHOUT losing their patent rights. The most important thing a technology company has is their innovation, and their innovation can still be protected by patent law.

But what if Rambus ultimately loses?

If the FTC's verdict is upheld, what would this mean to open standards? While the answer isn't potentially devastating on a financial level to the big dram companies like Infineon/Micron/Hynix (for them it would be one less bill payment to worry about), it would mean no royalties on SDRAM and DDR for Rambus. This wouldn't KILL Rambus per se, as they still have future technologies like Redwood and Yellowstone. However, if these technologies aren't accepted on a mass market scale, Rambus will remain a small 200 person company with some interesting technology, and not much more. Kind of like what they are now.

But the blow this would deal to the Open Standards world would be devastating.

This case has the potential to raise a critical precedent. That precedent being [/i]"If you participate in a standards setting organization, and don't divulge everything about technologies when you participate - INCLUDING all patent CLAIMS on your technology, you will lose ALL rights to those patents, AND be responsible for legal fees in the process."[/i]

But what about the flipside? What if you DO divulge all your information about a technology an open standards committee is trying to implement? With this precedent set, it would mean that they could, but the company who developed this technology would NOT be able to collect royalties on it.

So tell me, what large-scale innovative technology company is going to participate in a standards setting body if it has the potential to strip them of their intellectual property rights whether they divulge those patents or not? None of them. It isn't worth the risk, since their intellectual property is the ONE thing they have to compete with. Do you think Intel is going to participate in an open standards setting if AMD can simply run to the FTC and claim that their participation in an open standards body has invalidated their right to collect royalties on their patents?

NO WAY!

Rambus losing this case has the potential to completely kill the open standards process by subverting the way patent laws protect a company's innovations.

This is all a very interesting turn of events for Rambus....
 

TonyB

Senior member
May 31, 2001
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how about samsung, wouldnt they survive too?

edit: oh nevermind they already pay royalties to rambus!
 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Yep, they would survive as they have for this long. They have always paid Rambus royalties on SDRAM and DDR, and they're also a Rambus manufacturer. The only other Rambus manufacturer is Elpida - which is interesting as there's been rumors around Theinquirer.net about Intel wanting to invest in them.

Whether it's true or not (and what the ultimate purpose of this investment would be) is a mystery.
 

emjem

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Apr 7, 2000
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Here's the other side of the story for those who care:

WASHINGTON, April 30 (Reuters) - U.S. antitrust enforcers opened their case against technology company Rambus on Wednesday, telling a federal judge Rambus had used a campaign of deception to illegally monopolize key computer chip technologies.

Attorneys for the Federal Trade Commission told Judge McGuire that Rambus duped the industry into adopting its own patented computer chip technology as a standard.

As a result, the FTC attorneys argued, Rambus is in a position to reap billions of dollars from computer chip manufacturers such as Micron Technology and Korea's Hynix Semiconductor.

"We are here because Rambus simply refused to play by the rules," said FTC Deputy Competition Director Sean Royall. "Rambus seeks to cling to a potential fortune in royalties that it acquired not through competition, but through deception."

Rambus's attorney countered the accusations, telling the judge that computer chip makers were to blame for the dispute because they had tried to expropriate Rambus's superior technology.

"We're here because Rambus wants fair compensation for (its) inventions," Rambus attorney Gregory Stone said.

At issue is technology used for computer memory. In 1990 Rambus filed for a patent for a new memory technology called RDRAM. But it subsequently became a member of an industry group called JEDEC, which was trying to agree on standards for another memory technology called SDRAM.

FTC lawyers came to the hearing armed with confidential notes written by Rambus's outside patent attorney. They cited a half dozen instances in the mid-1990s in which they said the company had secretly applied to amend its RDRAM patent to cover technologies that JEDEC was considering for SDRAM.

The notes show that on three occasions Rambus's own lawyers had advised it "to stop doing what it was doing" and resign from the standard-setting group, known as JEDEC, Royall told the judge.

Normally Rambus could withhold such notes from the FTC by citing attorney-client privilege. But a judge presiding earlier in the case decided to waive the company's attorney-client privilege because of evidence that it had destroyed key documents in the case.

Royall said that decision had given the agency "an unusual degree of visibility" into the inner workings of Rambus.

He also listed instances in which he said Rambus executives had misled JEDEC officials when they asked if the company had patented key technologies.

In one 1994 memo, Royall said, a Rambus executive advised others not to disclose that it held a key patent that a Korean chip maker had asked about.

"Let's not rock the boat. Let's not let the cat out of the bag," he said.

Rambus has maintained that it never did anything to violate JEDEC's rules.

Stone, Rambus's lawyer, said the rules governing JEDEC did not require the company to disclose patents that it had applied for but had not yet been awarded.

Stone said there was evidence that chip makers actually knew about Rambus's patents, but that they decided to use the company's superior technologies anyway, hoping they could get them overturned later.

You have to know that there's SOME reason that the industry is pissed off at Rambus -- and it ain't because they have to pay royalties!!!

Rambus may get the FTC's evidence disallowed with LEGAL technicality, but IMO the truth of the issue is precisely stated with "FTC lawyers came to the hearing armed with confidential notes written by Rambus's outside patent attorney. They cited a half dozen instances in the mid-1990s in which they said the company had secretly applied to amend its RDRAM patent to cover technologies that JEDEC was considering for SDRAM".
 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: emjem
Here's the other side of the story for those who care:

You have to know that there's SOME reason that the industry is pissed off at Rambus -- and it ain't because they have to pay royalties!!!

Rambus may get the FTC's evidence disallowed with LEGAL technicality, but IMO the truth of the issue is precisely stated with "FTC lawyers came to the hearing armed with confidential notes written by Rambus's outside patent attorney. They cited a half dozen instances in the mid-1990s in which they said the company had secretly applied to amend its RDRAM patent to cover technologies that JEDEC was considering for SDRAM".

The industry should have embraced Rambus. Rather, they tried to ruin them because they didn't want to pay royalties.

The fact is though, Rambus is 100% within its rights to amend their patent claims, and there's nothing illegal about it. In fact, patent law encourages you to do so. My usual example is that of "Tums" being used as an antiacid and also as a calcium supplement, those are 2 "patent claims" that Tums has, but it was only after the big whoop-de-do about Osteoporosis that tums filed for their patent amendment and they were PERFECTLY in their right to do so. Funny, I didn't see any other stomach remedy companies colluding against Tums to force them out of the market :)

The basic issue with Rambus' IP is that they did so under an open standards organization (JEDEC). Of course this is meaningless when that open standards organization doesn't have sufficient policy to prevent Rambus from amending patent claims out of their own stupidity.

This mess is *JEDEC'S* doing, not Rambus, and you guys are all rooting for an open standards committee that allowed this to happen. I fail to see the logic in that.

There's several "sides" to this story. There's also documentation that Rambus is armed with that proves the major memory manufacturers colluded against Rambus to prevent RDRAM's adoption. They have these documents for the trial when it's their turn at bat. Some are from MELCO (which is "Mitsubishi Electronics Corp") and some came RIGHT from infineon (the "Deadly Menace" memo, that shows openly that JEDEC members KNEW about Rambus' patents - which completely dispels the entire "Rambus amended their patents to cover SDRAM" joke. If you read the pre-trial motions, you'll see that Complaint Counsel wanted to have that evidence quashed. They even cited a current DOJ investigation into Micron and other major memory manufacturers for collusion behavior.

Of course, with all the misappropriated hate towards Rambus making the news, the DOJ investigation sees very little press :) I guess you gotta have more than 200 employees to make the media rounds. :)
 

grant2

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May 23, 2001
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Ice9 it's always an interesting read when you get into the rambus threads :)

If Rambus was altering its patents to cover ideas generated within JEDEC, and gets away with it, *THAT* is what will destroy the future of open standards.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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They cited a half dozen instances in the mid-1990s in which they said the company had secretly applied to amend its RDRAM patent to cover technologies that JEDEC was considering for SDRAM".
My thoughts:
1) It is virtually impossible to get an unamended patent. Every patent I've been remotely involved with (or knew people involved with) were always sent back for amendments. It is a rule of thumb that it takes 2 to 3 revisions to get accepted. So ammending something isn't illegal - it is virtually required.
2) Now the key hinges on what was amended. If I invent something and claim in a patent that it does X and Z. Then later someone discovers that MY INVENTION also does Y, then I can ammend my patent to say it does X, Y, and Z.
3) However if MY INVENTION must be significantly altered in a new and non-trivial manner to perform Y - then the person or company that came up with that new and non-trivial alteration gets to patent Y.
4) So did JEDEC create new and non-trivial modifications to Rambus's invention? That is what the court must decide. From what I've read, the changes seem quite trivial and thus they remain fully Rambus's invention.

For example suppose I invent a great new cell phone that can send phone messages instantly to anyone anywhere on Earth. Then NASA takes my cell phone high into the atmosphere and it works there. Does NASA own the right to the patent for outerspace use? No, since that is not a new and non-trivial change in the way my cell phone was used. What if an organization changes the color of my cell phone, is that no longer my invention? Again no, since that is a trivial change. But what if they add lots of circuitry that reduces noise in the background, then who's invention is it? Both. I have the patent on the cell phone, and someone else will have the patent on the modifications. Notice I still have part ownership...

In your opinion: Were JEDEC's changes new? Were they non-trivial? Did they include parts of Rambus's already patentable (and filed for) ideas?
 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: grant2
Ice9 it's always an interesting read when you get into the rambus threads :)

If Rambus was altering its patents to cover ideas generated within JEDEC, and gets away with it, *THAT* is what will destroy the future of open standards.

Again, you probably don't understand how patent law works. The patents that Rambus applied for in 1990 HAVE NOT CHANGED on a technical level AT ALL. To this day, it remains identical to the 1990 filing.

Like I said, you CANNOT change the technical aspect of a patent, ONLY the claims for what it can do. Like I said, Tums can be used to treat heartburn, AND it can also be a calcium supplement. However, the patented formula that is "tums" *CANNOT* be changed unless an entirely new patent is issued.

Originally posted by: dullard

1) It is virtually impossible to get an unamended patent. Every patent I've been remotely involved with (or knew people involved with) were always sent back for amendments. It is a rule of thumb that it takes 2 to 3 revisions to get accepted. So ammending something isn't illegal - it is virtually required.

Right, and in Rambus' case the USPTO told Rambus that they needed to break the original '703 into multiple patents because there were "too many identifiable inventions" in the original filing. Which they did so.

2) Now the key hinges on what was amended. If I invent something and claim in a patent that it does X and Z. Then later someone discovers that MY INVENTION also does Y, then I can ammend my patent to say it does X, Y, and Z.

Which is exactly what Rambus did, and it was 100% within the law, according to Judge Rader. This has already been ruled upon by the federal circuit. This is why the FTC had to change their charge to "Willful document destruction". That's a reach :)

3) However if MY INVENTION must be significantly altered in a new and non-trivial manner to perform Y - then the person or company that came up with that new and non-trivial alteration gets to patent Y.

Right. So here's what JEDEC did:

They used Synchronous control (just like the 1990 RDRAM patent stated)
They used a 2 bank design like RDRAM.
4-fold internal data bus like in RDRAM
4 Word register at the data output like in RDRAM...
Low level interface like in RDRAM...

But gee, they left off the proprietary Rambus control protocol. I guess JEDEC thought that if they just left off this piece, they could call it their own and have a "public domain RDRAM", only name it "SDRAM".

4) So did JEDEC create new and non-trivial modifications to Rambus's invention? That is what the court must decide. From what I've read, the changes seem quite trivial and thus they remain fully Rambus's invention.

A REASONABLE court will see that Rambus is being infringed upon just as Rader has. However, the FTC is NOT a reasonable court. It's a Kangaroo court that doesn't even really KNOW what it's getting itself into.

For example suppose I invent a great new cell phone that can send phone messages instantly to anyone anywhere on Earth. Then NASA takes my cell phone high into the atmosphere and it works there. Does NASA own the right to the patent for outerspace use? No, since that is not a new and non-trivial change in the way my cell phone was used. What if an organization changes the color of my cell phone, is that no longer my invention? Again no, since that is a trivial change. But what if they add lots of circuitry that reduces noise in the background, then who's invention is it? Both. I have the patent on the cell phone, and someone else will have the patent on the modifications. Notice I still have part ownership...

All excellent examples.

In your opinion: Were JEDEC's changes new? Were they non-trivial? Did they include parts of Rambus's already patentable (and filed for) ideas?

The modifications that JEDEC made to the RDRAM spec were all trivial. All they did was use as much of Rambus' technology as they could in nearly ALL aspects with the exception of the multiplexed bus and the proprietary control protocol. They hedged their bets that they could cause enough trouble legally for this tiny company by tying them up in litigation for years, and hope they'd just go away. After all, they *DID* participate in this open standards body, right? It sure is easy to make Rambus LOOK guilty.

But luckily, Rambus decided to stick it out and fight. And even MORE luckily, they didn't stop innovating. They've earned themselves a steady revenue stream to get them through this mess (though I honestly think it'll be at least 3 years before they see a penny of royalties out of SDRAM or DDR).

Thus far, Infineon, Micron and Hynix have failed to be profitable. In fact, 2 of the 3 are in dire trouble. Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of idiots.
 

Cerb

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Aug 26, 2000
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...I keep hearing these companies are selling at a loss. How much of a loss? What is the cost of manufacture, assembly and distribution for Crucial (making their own), Samsung (making their own), Kingston (assembling), etc. per DIMM (or average per 1000 or 10,000)?
Micron/Crucial has had a few other problems than just the RAM.
Infineon and Hynix (well, and Micron) did not pay the royalties...but why? Can a 3 to 4% royalty be *that* harmful? I can't imagine major OEMs going with lesser RAM, even if it is a bit more expensive, given the quality assurance.

IMO, if a company is willing to share its technology with an open standards group, all companies involved should have an agreement before the devulging of technology to deal with royalties, one-time fees, etc.
Excessive litigation is never a good thing to have, as Intel and Rambus have shown, since it tarnishes the public image regardless of who is right or wrong.
 

Compddd

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Jul 5, 2000
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Rambus is a superior memory type compared to DDR is it not? More bandwidth and huge scalability right?
 

ElFenix

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and heres what rambus did: they didn't abide by the contract when they entered the JEDEC body.
 

Erasmus-X

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Using this logic, well-established open standards such as OpenGL would have been gobbled up by industry giants long ago and we'd start seeing patents on API's, bringing the cost of bleeding-edge video cards to even more ridiculous level.

I understand that business is business, but what Rambus is doing is simply out of plain white-collar greed. Do you see Rambus actually embracing the technology they get into lawsuits to have full control over? Nope, they want to sell you RDRAM because they truly believe that it's far superior to SDRAM, and can therefore mark it up more.

The only reason they even started this mess to begin with was because of slower than projected initial sales of RDRAM. When the first Pentium 4-based machines hit the market, there was only ONE chipset that supported the processor at the time (the Intel i850), and it required RDRAM. So guess what? Smart consumers were still buying Pentium 3 and Athlon machines configured with SDRAM because they were only marginally slower if anything (in fact, the first run of Pentium 4 chips were slower clock-for-clock than Pentium 3's!), and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than new Pentium 4 systems. In fact, only large OEM's still market RDRAM solutions in their flagship products. And those systems make up for a very small minority of what they actually end up selling.

Though Rambus had been keeping its eye on proposed JEDEC standards since the early 90's (and applying for patents in the process), they really didn't take significant legal action UNTIL they realized that their product was a financial failure (how convenient...). So now that Rambus is pissed off, they do the old-fashioned American thing and SUE people. They figured that if they can't sell RDRAM in the quantities they want to, they can charge other memory manufacturers royalties on open technology that they ABUSED for personal gain. Most memory manufacturers gave in to this to prevent business disaster on their ends. Some will call this selling out to the man, but hey, we all have to get by. Micron, Hynix, and other large memory manufacturers are suffering big-time!

Rambus, Inc. are a bunch of bullies. I have nothing against their RDRAM technology (it's actually quite superb, but it needs to be within the reach of an average consumer, which would consequently lead to widespread industry acceptance......if that would had all happened things would be a LOT different); only their business practices. I never thought I'd catch myself saying this, but they're worse than Microsoft.

 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Cerb
...I keep hearing these companies are selling at a loss. How much of a loss? What is the cost of manufacture, assembly and distribution for Crucial (making their own), Samsung (making their own), Kingston (assembling), etc. per DIMM (or average per 1000 or 10,000)?
Micron/Crucial has had a few other problems than just the RAM.
Infineon and Hynix (well, and Micron) did not pay the royalties...but why? Can a 3 to 4% royalty be *that* harmful? I can't imagine major OEMs going with lesser RAM, even if it is a bit more expensive, given the quality assurance.

A 3 to 4% royalty is never harmful to these companies because they simply pass that cost on to the customer. And no one is going to complain about a 4% increase on a $30-$150 item. Micron last quarter lost nearly $1B, and haven't been profitable since DDR's inception. The reason they're not profitable has nothing to do with Rambus. It has to do with every memory manufacturer trying to drive each other out of business. Rambus is happily immune to that, since they don't actually manufacture anything.

IMO, if a company is willing to share its technology with an open standards group, all companies involved should have an agreement before the devulging of technology to deal with royalties, one-time fees, etc.
Excessive litigation is never a good thing to have, as Intel and Rambus have shown, since it tarnishes the public image regardless of who is right or wrong.

Agreed. The problem Rambus had in the early 90's with JEDEC is that they were a tiny company of maybe 10 people, and needed partners and friends in the business. At the time they felt that this was a good thing to do to strengthen their ties to the semiconductor industry - something they needed because they didn't actually manufacture memory themselves. In the end, the ONLY recourse Rambus had was to sue, since the members of JEDEC were stealing their property outright. When Rambus finally figured out what they were doing (cherry-picking their patents), they bailed out of JEDEC.
 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
and heres what rambus did: they didn't abide by the contract when they entered the JEDEC body.

There was no contract, and no duty to disclose.
 

Ice9

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Erasmus-X
Using this logic, well-established open standards such as OpenGL would have been gobbled up by industry giants long ago and we'd start seeing patents on API's, bringing the cost of bleeding-edge video cards to even more ridiculous level.

And using this logic, it would have been entirely possible if these API's were not made public domain by SGI. They *INTENTIONALLY* made these API's public domain in the interest of *gasp* selling more SGI hardware that was capable of very fast OpenGL.

I understand that business is business, but what Rambus is doing is simply out of plain white-collar greed. Do you see Rambus actually embracing the technology they get into lawsuits to have full control over? Nope, they want to sell you RDRAM because they truly believe that it's far superior to SDRAM, and can therefore mark it up more.

But that isn't the case in the least. Rambus is a 180 person company and is hardly a "white collar" organization like Micron. Also, Rambus can't sell you RDRAM. That has to be done by the memory manufacturers. Of course, RDRAM has always been superior to SDRAM, but the memory manufacturers colluded to keep Rambus out of the market. Rambus even priced the royalties lower for RDRAM over DDR and SDRAM (1.5% versus 3%).

The only reason they even started this mess to begin with was because of slower than projected initial sales of RDRAM. When the first Pentium 4-based machines hit the market, there was only ONE chipset that supported the processor at the time (the Intel i850), and it required RDRAM. So guess what? Smart consumers were still buying Pentium 3 and Athlon machines configured with SDRAM because they were only marginally slower if anything (in fact, the first run of Pentium 4 chips were slower clock-for-clock than Pentium 3's!), and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than new Pentium 4 systems. In fact, only large OEM's still market RDRAM solutions in their flagship products. And those systems make up for a very small minority of what they actually end up selling.

Completely false. The P4 sold like hotcakes right out of the gate. Dell's own Dimension 8200 and 8250 were their top selling P4 machine, and it always had RDRAM. Rambus' earnings were sharply higher at the introduction of the P4, but the cost of RDRAM was $1200 per 128MB coming out of the memory manufacturers (and Rambus only saw 1.5% of manufacturing cost). It had nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing the stuff. It had nothing to do with the cost of refabbing their plants since intel financed that. It had to do with the memory manufacturers colluding to keep the price high so it would kill its adoption. There's a DOJ investigation going on about that as we speak.

Though Rambus had been keeping its eye on proposed JEDEC standards since the early 90's (and applying for patents in the process), they really didn't take significant legal action UNTIL they realized that their product was a financial failure (how convenient...).

Again, this is impossible with Patent law. The patents that have been in dispute were filed for in 1990. That has NOT changed. Ever. Not one iota. The patents in question were ALL patents that the memory manufacturers knew about because they all signed NDA's with Rambus back in the late 80's-early 90's timeframe. They were all cherry-picked by JEDEC in 1992+ when they were invited to join the consortium. Your statement is 100% untrue and documented as such.

I also fail to see how you can consider RDRAM a financial failure when they have been completely profitable with it. Look at Rambus' earnings. Positive earnings quarter after quarter after quarter. How about your beloved non-RDRAM-manufacturing companies? All are losing money because they're selling their wares at a loss. Rambus' biggest and best friend, Samsung, is happily making a healthy profit while everyone else falls through the floor. You can't tell me that RDRAM is "expensive" because it's priced to sell at a profit. Maybe you feel that's completely out of line since you're used to paying less than manufacturing cost for DDR, but in the long run it will be the profitable companies that survive.

So now that Rambus is pissed off, they do the old-fashioned American thing and SUE people. They figured that if they can't sell RDRAM in the quantities they want to, they can charge other memory manufacturers royalties on open technology that they ABUSED for personal gain. Most memory manufacturers gave in to this to prevent business disaster on their ends. Some will call this selling out to the man, but hey, we all have to get by. Micron, Hynix, and other large memory manufacturers are suffering big-time!

Most of the above is also 100% false, since all semiconductor companies live and die by their intellectual property. Look at each one of these companies patent portfolios. Also, Rambus does not sell RDRAM as you are implying. They cannot make any kind of reasonable expectation as to how much RDRAM can sell in the marketplace when memory manufacturers are colluding to keep it from selling. Memory manufacturers are NOT suffering because of Rambus' lawsuits as you are also implying.

Rambus, Inc. are a bunch of bullies. I have nothing against their RDRAM technology (it's actually quite superb, but it needs to be within the reach of an average consumer, which would consequently lead to widespread industry acceptance......if that would had all happened things would be a LOT different); only their business practices. I never thought I'd catch myself saying this, but they're worse than Microsoft.

I'm always impressed how a small innovative company seeking to protect its inventions is looked upon as a bully, particularly when it's their patents that are the only thing they have to make money with. :) But hey, your post is long on theinquirer.net/vanshardware drivel, but seriously short on actual fact. Rambus isn't the one who's being the bully here. It's the memory manufacturers who feel they should be free to use Rambus' technology without paying for it.
 

Slammy1

Platinum Member
Apr 8, 2003
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In my limited patent experience (I authored 4 patents) the idea is you try to cover as much ground as possible in a patent. You really can't blame Rambus for what's been standard practice since the patent office's inception. My first was a work around for another patent, although I wasn't aware of the original patent until the patent attorney did a search and found it. It's a big money maker for the company I was working for, and seems to be standard practice for technology (note: my background is chemical research). Technology is a funny business, and when your throw lawyers in it just muddies already murky waters.
 

NOX

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
4,077
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Ice9,

That is great information, very informative!

Though I don't know of any numbers, I believe Rambus has been and is very profitable! Isn't the Sony PS2, the most selling game console ever use RDRAM? Also, isn't the Sony PS3 suppose to use Rambus?s Yellowstone technology?
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
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0
Originally posted by: NOX
Ice9,

That is great information, very informative!

Though I don't know of any numbers, I believe Rambus has been and is very profitable! Isn't the Sony PS2, the most selling game console ever use RDRAM? Also, isn't the Sony PS3 suppose to use Rambus?s Yellowstone technology?

Yes to both. PS2 uses RDRAM, and PS3 will use both Redwood and Yellowstone. It'll also be in any device that will use "Cell" technology, which IBM and Toshiba both plan on using.