More hybrid vehicle news

[charrison]

GM Hybrid bus

"The parallel hybrid electric system is the most efficient hybrid architecture available today," said Larry Dewey, president of Allison Transmission. "In addition to bringing the benefits of hybrid electric technology to commercial vehicles, the EP System is helping establish hybrid technologies as effective, practical and commercially viable. This system stands ready to revolutionize transportation as we know it."

Allison Transmission's EP System offers a range of benefits. The system can be easily adapted to fit into existing vehicle platforms and delivers about 60 percent better fuel economy than the conventional diesel systems used in urban transit buses. Buses equipped with the EP System produce much lower hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions than conventional diesel buses, lowering particulate emissions (tiny pieces of soot and dust) by 90 percent and nitrogen oxide (NOX ) emissions by 50 percent. Buses equipped with the Allison Electric Drives system also deliver 50 percent better acceleration than a bus equipped with a conventional diesel powertrain.

Normal busses of this type get 3.5mpg, these will get 5.5mpg. This is a fuel savings of $27,000 per year per bus. According to GM it will take 7 years for the added hybrid expense to pay for it self. Seattle is currently planning to replace their bus fleet with these.

More evidence that the big 3 are not behind on hybrid tech.


Linkage

The Seattle area's metropolitan bus line has ordered 213 New Flyer buses that use the Allison hybrid being produced in Plant 15 in Indianapolis.

...

"Replacing the 13,000 buses operating in the nine largest transit markets in the United States with our hybrid technology would result in annual savings of more than 40 million gallons of fuel, equivalent to more than half a million small hybrid passenger vehicles," said GM powertrain head Tom Stephens.

 

[XZeroII]

WOOT!

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Nice links - it's good to see the progress that is being made....now if ethynol would become more widespread and better yet - biodiesel we could well on our way to lessening our dependance on foreign oil.

The part I liked best was that portion that dealt with the replacement of 13K buses - which would save 40M gallons of fuel a year.

CkG

 

[sandorski]

Sounds good. As long as SUV owners don't migrate to the Buses.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I believe Business Week had an article last month about hybrid fleet replacement by the major shipping companies . . . they were primarily discussing foreign automakers.

"Replacing the 13,000 buses operating in the nine largest transit markets in the United States with our hybrid technology would result in annual savings of more than 40 million gallons of fuel, equivalent to more than half a million small hybrid passenger vehicles," said GM powertrain head Tom Stephens.

If US automakers were producing (and selling) hybrids at the same rate as Toyota then half a million small hybrids would already be on the market. Granted if I had to guess GM is comparing this future bus fleet to the smallest hybrid available (Honda Insight) that only seats two people. By 4th quarter 2004, Honda and Toyota/Lexus will offer three hybrid vehicles each. GM/Ford/leftover Daimler Chrysler will collectively offer a raincheck.

No matter how you spin it . . . domestic automakers are still choking on Nippon Inc's exhaust . . . albeit much cleaner exhaust.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I believe Business Week had an article last month about hybrid fleet replacement by the major shipping companies . . . they were primarily discussing foreign automakers.

"Replacing the 13,000 buses operating in the nine largest transit markets in the United States with our hybrid technology would result in annual savings of more than 40 million gallons of fuel, equivalent to more than half a million small hybrid passenger vehicles," said GM powertrain head Tom Stephens.

If US automakers were producing (and selling) hybrids at the same rate as Toyota then half a million small hybrids would already be on the market. Granted if I had to guess GM is comparing this future bus fleet to the smallest hybrid available (Honda Insight) that only seats two people. By 4th quarter 2004, Honda and Toyota/Lexus will offer three hybrid vehicles each. GM/Ford/leftover Daimler Chrysler will collectively offer a raincheck.

No matter how you spin it . . . domestic automakers are still choking on Nippon Inc's exhaust . . . albeit much cleaner exhaust.

I think they are just shooting at a slightly different market.

 

[sMiLeYz]

That's awesome.

 

[dmcowen674]

It's a start.

Nevermind the big three. Go Allison. I bet they are what prodded GM to do this.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's a start.

Nevermind the big three. Go Allison. I bet they are what prodded GM to do this.

GM is doing quite of RnD in the area....

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

GM playing catch up . . . I wonder what different market they are after . . .

GM to Offer 5 Hybrid-Electric Models By 2007
First GM hybrid to appear in 2004 with Prius-like Saturn Vue sedan to follow in 2005.

GM is presenting several versions of the technology. The most advanced, and most like the Prius, will come in 2005, when the company will offer a hybrid version of the 2006 Saturn Vue with average gas mileage of nearly 40 miles a gallon, compared with average mileage as high as 25 for the nonhybrid versions, people briefed on the plan said.

 

[KenGr]

It's always good to see progress. However, I would like to see the "7 year payback" calculation for these buses. I did a quick calc assuming that Seattle can buy diesel fuel in bulk for these buses but still pays $1.50 a gallon. Using the difference in mileage, I found that these buses have to travel close to 200,000 miles per year to save the quoted $27,000 per year. I then assumed that the buses operate for 16 hours a day, every day of the year. They would have to average about 30 to 35 mph to do this. My understanding is that most city buses average more like 10 to 15 mph (or even less, considering down time and turnaround time.

The reason there aren't more hybrids on the street is not because they aren't for sale, it's because very few people will actually save money by buying them. Gasoline needs to be around $3.00 per gallon before it makes sense but they aren't even selling like hotcakes in Japan with gas prices much higher.

On a positive note, there is rising interest in "plug-in" hybrids. By increasing the battery size a bit, you can use a plug in recharger and never turn the gasoline engine on unless you are driving more than 20 or 30 miles. For many people, this will save much more money than the current hybrids.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Ford hybrid . . . made in Japan?

Ford Motor Co.'s decision to enlist the services of Japan's Aisin AW Co. to develop the gas-electric hybrid powertrain for the special high-fuel economy/low-emission version of the Ford Escape sport utility vehicle (SUV) due out in 2003 will allow the automaker to cash in on the expertise of the Toyota Motor Corp. affiliate.

Ford is paying Aisin to develop a powertrain similar to the one used by Toyota in its volume-produced Prius hybrid electric vehicle (HEV). Aisin's technological experience--the surprisingly successful Prius has been in circulation since 1997--also will keep the engineering costs for Ford's HEV propulsion system design relatively low. Toyota, which has a 40-percent stake in Aisin, probably also likes the Ford-Aisin deal because it draws more attention to the propulsion system in the Prius and will help spread the Prius-centered HEV technology beyond Japan.

Now this sounds like American technology that migh be worth the price of admission . . .

Ford has its own HEV propulsion system technology, and by all indications it's a good one. The Prodigy, introduced in 2000 as a product of Ford's work in the government-industry Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV), represents the latest publicly shown form of Ford's technology, but the Prodigy would be much too expensive for most people's budgets.

At the heart of the Prodigy's propulsion system for 80-miles-per-gallon fuel economy is Ford's DIATA (Direct Injection and Through-bolt Assembly) small diesel engine. The car also makes use of an automatic-shift manual transmission with hydraulically controlled actuators. Neither the engine nor transmission is in production at Ford. The car has two cooling and two battery systems, and a custom-designed electronic vehicle system controller. An aluminum body, magnesium transmission case, lightweight plastic and carbon composite battery tub, aluminum-intensive chassis, titanium exhaust system, metal matrix composite oil pan and adjustable magnesium engine mounts with titanium bolts are examples of some unusual applications for lightweight materials in the car.

 

[KenGr]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's a start.

Nevermind the big three. Go Allison. I bet they are what prodded GM to do this.

Duh.... Allison Transmission is a division of GM.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: KenGr

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's a start.

Nevermind the big three. Go Allison. I bet they are what prodded GM to do this.

Duh.... Allison Transmission is a division of GM.

Thanks Kengr, didn't know GM bought them out but not surprised.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
GM playing catch up . . . I wonder what different market they are after . . .

GM to Offer 5 Hybrid-Electric Models By 2007
First GM hybrid to appear in 2004 with Prius-like Saturn Vue sedan to follow in 2005.

GM is presenting several versions of the technology. The most advanced, and most like the Prius, will come in 2005, when the company will offer a hybrid version of the 2006 Saturn Vue with average gas mileage of nearly 40 miles a gallon, compared with average mileage as high as 25 for the nonhybrid versions, people briefed on the plan said.

GM is coming out with a hybrid truck next year. It is going to have 110 outlets on the inside and out. I am sure contractors are going to be snatching this one up.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

My bad . . . I thought we were talking about hybrid vehicles that matter. But hey if GM is looking to steal sales from the Super Duty line from Ford . . . then more power to 'em.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
My bad . . . I thought we were talking about hybrid vehicles that matter. But hey if GM is looking to steal sales from the Super Duty line from Ford . . . then more power to 'em.

I was talking about hybrid vehicles.


linkage

DETROIT (May 22, 2001) ? You could forgive the customer for thinking of it as a 285-horsepower portable generator on wheels. GM's parallel hybrid pickup truck can help power a construction site or campground with its pair of 110-volt electrical outlets.

But it's also a fully capable V-8 powered pickup truck that can haul and tow just as much as its rugged gasoline counterpart. It just happens to get 10-15 percent better fuel economy and have these power outlets.

"This is a hybrid with a twist," said Tom Stephens, vice president, GM Vehicle Integration. "Unlike our competitors, who are looking to use the electric motor as a power assist on a small powertrain and giving up some utility to accomplish that, we give you all the acceleration, towing and hauling capability you've come to expect by using a truck V-8 engine. The energy captured through regenerative braking and being able to shut off the engine at idle, improves fuel economy by up to 15 percent."

...

Based on the popular GMT-800 full-sized pickup, known to consumers as the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra, the hybrid truck features a 5.3-liter VORTEC V-8 engine, the same as the conventional versions of the truck. The hybrid propulsion package will be available as an option on GM's full-sized pickups beginning in 2004. Pricing is still being determined, although it is expected to be competitive.

....


"We believe hybrids are going to make the most sense in higher fuel consumption vehicles, and that includes pickup trucks," Stephens explained. "If you do the math, you can see that we can actually save significantly more fuel converting a 20 mpg vehicle into a hybrid than a 30 mpg vehicle, especially if it's a vehicle that sells in high volumes, not a niche vehicle."

 

[Spencer278]

the problem with hybrids is that assuming they do save money the people that care about saving that amount of money can't really afford a new car

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Spencer278
the problem with hybrids is that assuming they do save money the people that care about saving that amount of money can't really afford a new car

At this point yes - but the mission isn't only money - it's environmental and oil dependance too We definately need to make hybrid mainstream for all 3 of those reasons

CkG

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Spencer278
the problem with hybrids is that assuming they do save money the people that care about saving that amount of money can't really afford a new car

If hybrid technology is successfull, it will find its way to the entire market.

 

[ReiAyanami]

the real question is: where are they hiding the water powered car?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

"If you do the math, you can see that we can actually save significantly more fuel converting a 20 mpg vehicle into a hybrid than a 30 mpg vehicle, especially if it's a vehicle that sells in high volumes, not a niche vehicle."

I wouldn't call the Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Highlander, or Lexus RX330 niche vehicles. The latest Prius is selling quite well . . . though Honda may put the Insight on ice since it has a dedicated assembly line.

I did not intend to hijack your thread . . . the original description of a heavy duty pickup truck serving as a power strip . . . is a niche vehicle . . . with a likely near term volume far less than the Insight. Heavy duty hybrids (delivery trucks/buses) make sense as companies and governments replace their fleets . . . but much of the technology that is ready for primetime is not coming from MI . . . although they are making a little noise.

On the consumer market . . . the domestics are quite lacking. I wish I could make plans to replace the wife's LS8 with a RWDdiesel6/AWD electric hybrid from Wixom. Unfortunately, my children (unborn that is) will be driving that vehicle. If I want something close it will likely come from Acura/Lexus. That's not America-bashing it's just the truth.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

"If you do the math, you can see that we can actually save significantly more fuel converting a 20 mpg vehicle into a hybrid than a 30 mpg vehicle, especially if it's a vehicle that sells in high volumes, not a niche vehicle."

I wouldn't call the Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Highlander, or Lexus RX330 niche vehicles. The latest Prius is selling quite well . . . though Honda may put the Insight on ice since it has a dedicated assembly line.

I did not intend to hijack your thread . . . the original description of a heavy duty pickup truck serving as a power strip . . . is a niche vehicle . . . with a likely near term volume far less than the Insight. Heavy duty hybrids (delivery trucks/buses) make sense as companies and governments replace their fleets . . . but much of the technology that is ready for primetime is not coming from MI . . . although they are making a little noise.

On the consumer market . . . the domestics are quite lacking. I wish I could make plans to replace the wife's LS8 with a RWDdiesel6/AWD electric hybrid from Wixom. Unfortunately, my children (unborn that is) will be driving that vehicle. If I want something close it will likely come from Acura/Lexus. That's not America-bashing it's just the truth.

Well considering trucks are #1 sellers, I dont think you classify trucks as niche.
The GM guy on radio this afternoon said they were looking into hybrids technology for big rigs as well.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Powerstrip truck != hybrid

Powerstrip truck = niche vehicle

Who knows if American consumers will buy superior trucks from Toyota/Nissan . . . opinion not fact . . . personally I like the new F-150. But none of the American manufacturers are even close to putting an American buillt hybrid drivetrain into a truck or SUV. Nippon Inc will beat America to market but people will still buy Escapes over CR-V/RAV5 . . . unless of course the Japanese are allowed to dominate the market before the Big 2.5 get their collective act together.

IMHO, only Volvo may provide competition for putting a hybrid drivetrain in a semi . . . but that's assuming Honda/Toyota technology is not scalable. If that assumption is false then all bets are off.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Powerstrip truck != hybrid

Powerstrip truck = niche vehicle

Who knows if American consumers will buy superior trucks from Toyota/Nissan . . . opinion not fact . . . personally I like the new F-150. But none of the American manufacturers are even close to putting an American buillt hybrid drivetrain into a truck or SUV. Nippon Inc will beat America to market but people will still buy Escapes over CR-V/RAV5 . . . unless of course the Japanese are allowed to dominate the market before the Big 2.5 get their collective act together.

IMHO, only Volvo may provide competition for putting a hybrid drivetrain in a semi . . . but that's assuming Honda/Toyota technology is not scalable. If that assumption is false then all bets are off.

So why is this truck not a hybrid? I am curious to why you think it is not.