more future proof nvidia 5900 ultra or ati 9800 pro?

[BFG10K]

You are correct, using my logic having RAM that exceeds the amount that can be used by your applications and empty hard drive space is of little value.

So remove it then; what are you still doing here, posting on a rig that is still reporting spare RAM and HD space? And for that matter remove all of your unused PCI slots and drive bays and downgrade your power supply to the exact wattage your rig needs and not a single watt more.

Let's say that Sweeney tells us Unreal 4, eta 2006, is going to have transparent boxes in the game the only cards with Feature X can render.

Except there already are PS 2.0 games out now which show significant performance advantages on ATi's cards. My issue with this whole thing is that ATi's advantage is being downplayed with simpleton comments coming from people that have suddenly developed a "you don't need more than 640KB RAM" mentality. It's like going back to the Voodoo3 days of "you don't need 32 bit colour" and denying that 32 bit colour provides any benefit.

Just because you have a phobia against technological progress that doesn't imply that vendors who don't have no advantages over other vendors.

Six months, and many games, later- no PS2 in sight.

No PS 2.0 in sight? What on earth are you talking about?

 

[BFG10K]

i still maintian there is no such thing as "future proof"..

Which is why we all know that a Radeon 7000 will last just as long as a 9800XT will in the next generation of games.

 

[jim1976]

It's not only inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment.
It's a constant denial and distortion of facts and an attempt to underestimate the efforts of a company, that for years was way behind Nvidia but tried hard and reached the top.
Some ppl talk about hardware components and especially video cards, like they had their first experience yesterday...
Noone expected this line of DX9 cards to perform extraordinary, yet we should respect the fact that ATI has the performance and IQ crown in most of the cases, with a significant difference from the second.
What did you expect? 100fps in a dx9 game with AA and AF enabled? Cmon be realistic.

We should always base our conclusions and opinions on todays hardware capabilities, and not on 2morrows "Dream" gpus.
And YES, noone is able to predict the future but you can have a pretty good idea of what each current card will perform.

I don't care if some of you think that I'm a fanboy. I know that I'm not and I would say the exact same thing about this futureproof debate between ATI-NVIDIA vice versa.

One last word. We are PC owners and ALL of us are paying special attention in small things like the difference between ps1.1 and ps2.0. Especially those who upgrade constantly...
I myself upgrade every second generation, so I want the best perf/price and futureproof gpu available there.
Otherwise we can always leave our PCs and take an XBOX or a PS2 to play games, and don't have to worry about these.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
but then it is just as easy to turn that around and say that the unwillingness to accept the concept of futureproof as a relative term is a blatant sign of one's inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment. 😉

lol, relative to what?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

i still maintian there is no such thing as "future proof"..

Which is why we all know that a Radeon 7000 will last just as long as a 9800XT will in the next generation of games.

again, and apple to orange comparison. we are talking "current generation", not 3 generations ago...

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: jim1976
It's not only inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment.
It's a constant denial and distortion of facts and an attempt to underestimate the efforts of a company, that for years was way behind Nvidia but tried hard and reached the top.
Some ppl talk about hardware components and especially video cards, like they had their first experience yesterday...
Noone expected this line of DX9 cards to perform extraordinary, yet we should respect the fact that ATI has the performance and IQ crown in most of the cases, with a significant difference from the second.
What did you expect? 100fps in a dx9 game with AA and AF enabled? Cmon be realistic.

We should always base our conclusions and opinions on todays hardware capabilities, and not on 2morrows "Dream" gpus.
And YES, noone is able to predict the future but you can have a pretty good idea of what each current card will perform.

I don't care if some of you think that I'm a fanboy. I know that I'm not and I would say the exact same thing about this futureproof debate between ATI-NVIDIA vice versa.

One last word. We are PC owners and ALL of us are paying special attention in small things like the difference between ps1.1 and ps2.0. Especially those who upgrade constantly...
I myself upgrade every second generation, so I want the best perf/price and futureproof gpu available there.
Otherwise we can always leave our PCs and take an XBOX or a PS2 to play games, and don't have to worry about these.

i agree with much of what you say, so the only thing i will comment on is, I myself upgrade every second generation, so I want the best perf/price and futureproof gpu available there" by saying if there were such a thing as "future proof" you wouldn't need to upgrade every other gen 🙂

to think the current cards, regardless of whether you like ati or nvidia, will last significantly longer than the other is far fetched, and really determined more by how low you set your standards on what "acceptable performce" is. i mean, there ARE people still running gf4 mx (a gf 2gpu!), but come on, is that card any more "future proof" than any other card of the gf2 generation?

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: jim1976
It's not only inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment.
It's a constant denial and distortion of facts and an attempt to underestimate the efforts of a company, that for years was way behind Nvidia but tried hard and reached the top.
Some ppl talk about hardware components and especially video cards, like they had their first experience yesterday...
Noone expected this line of DX9 cards to perform extraordinary, yet we should respect the fact that ATI has the performance and IQ crown in most of the cases, with a significant difference from the second.
What did you expect? 100fps in a dx9 game with AA and AF enabled? Cmon be realistic.

We should always base our conclusions and opinions on todays hardware capabilities, and not on 2morrows "Dream" gpus.
And YES, noone is able to predict the future but you can have a pretty good idea of what each current card will perform.

I don't care if some of you think that I'm a fanboy. I know that I'm not and I would say the exact same thing about this futureproof debate between ATI-NVIDIA vice versa.

One last word. We are PC owners and ALL of us are paying special attention in small things like the difference between ps1.1 and ps2.0. Especially those who upgrade constantly...
I myself upgrade every second generation, so I want the best perf/price and futureproof gpu available there.
Otherwise we can always leave our PCs and take an XBOX or a PS2 to play games, and don't have to worry about these.

i agree with much of what you say, so the only thing i will comment on is, I myself upgrade every second generation, so I want the best perf/price and futureproof gpu available there" by saying if there were such a thing as "future proof" you wouldn't need to upgrade every other gen 🙂

to think the current cards, regardless of whether you like ati or nvidia, will last significantly longer than the other is far fetched, and really determined more by how low you set your standards on what "acceptable performce" is. i mean, there ARE people still running gf4 mx (a gf 2gpu!), but come on, is that card any more "future proof" than any other card of the gf2 generation?

But you seem to miss my point here. When I say futureproof I'm talking about 12-18 months approximately.
It's not like we are talkin about after three years from now. It would be totally unrealistic, since we are talking about a technological sector that is constantly and rapidly changing.
So even for this period of 12-18 months ALL OF US should care for the best high end gpu available now.
So your comment on the gf2-gf4 is not applicable IMHO.
It's not only for ppl that cannnot afford or simply don't want to spend money all the time for a new gpu.
It's also for those ppl who upgrade constantly, because it gives the the satisfaction of making the wiser choice.
That is applied of course only if you care for your money and you don't spare them just for fun.

 

[Shamrock]

Nothing is "futureproof"...people have the wording wrong...it should be "which card is more future RESISTANT

Just like the buildings in Califronia were "earthquake proof" when they werent the architects had to change it to "earthquake resistant".

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: jim1976
But you seem to miss my point here. When I say futureproof I'm talking about 12-18 months approximately.
It's not like we are talkin about after three years from now. It would be totally unrealistic, since we are talking about a technological sector that is constantly and rapidly changing.
So even for this period of 12-18 months ALL OF US should care for the best high end gpu available now.
So your comment on the gf2-gf4 is not applicable IMHO.
It's not only for ppl that cannnot afford or simply don't want to spend money all the time for a new gpu.
It's also for those ppl who upgrade constantly, because it gives the the satisfaction of making the wiser choice.
That is applied of course only if you care for your money and you don't spare them just for fun.

no, i don't miss your point; i think you miss mine & you're getting kind of off-track.. the subject is whether the 5900 or 9800 is more "future proof" than the other..

your 12-18 mo. is actually a reasonable time, and my point is neither the 5900 or 9800 will be obsolete with that time, and splitting hairs over which is more future proof is futile as neither will really outlast the other by a significant amount of time imo.

the gf2 comment is simply to make a point that "acceptable" performace is purely a subjective term, and many have lower standards than others. like i said, some are still using their gf4mx ;p

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
but then it is just as easy to turn that around and say that the unwillingness to accept the concept of futureproof as a relative term is a blatant sign of one's inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment. 😉

lol, relative to what?

not relative to what, a relative term:

2. Arising from relation; resulting from connection with, or reference to, something else; not absolute.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
but then it is just as easy to turn that around and say that the unwillingness to accept the concept of futureproof as a relative term is a blatant sign of one's inability to reach a state of emotional fulfillment. 😉

lol, relative to what?

not relative to what, a relative term:

2. Arising from relation; resulting from connection with, or reference to, something else; not absolute.

now that you know what "relative" means, i'll ask again.. relative to what?

 

[videoclone]

Geforce is better then the Radeon always has been always will be the radeon is a wast of money !

 

[kylebisme]

i have known what relative means for quite some time. i was simply pointing out to you the dictionary definition of "relative term" as you obviously don't understand the concept; if you did, you wouldn't be asking your question.

 

[Keysplayr]

You guys sure take the fun out of gaming.

 

[Acanthus]

Wow you guys are seriously stupid.

Dictionaries and technicalities arent needed here. Both cards will suck in the future. Period. End of story. You will not be playing games made in 2005 on this hardware with AA+AF. Its simple logic.

Cain is right.

God...

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
i have known what relative means for quite some time. i was simply pointing out to you the dictionary definition of "relative term" as you obviously don't understand the concept; if you did, you wouldn't be asking your question.

no you were being smug as you were left with no other answer apparently.. perhaps desperate even?

in order for any concept to be "relative", it has to be compared to something. you trumpet the term "relativity", however it is absolutely meaningless unless you have a standard in which to measure it against, and you offer nothing. so this line of reasoning you are taking this discussion is meaningless. let's get back to the matter at hand, shall we?

 

[CaiNaM]

you know.. all this talk of "future proof" and ati's superiority in dx9.. why doesn't anyone ever mention or discuss gunmetal?

GunMetal is a synthetic DirectX 9.0 benchmark based on a real-world engine.
Stresses the GPU's fill-rate and pixel / vertex shader performance in gaming.
We test using the Benchmark One, the average FPS score is recorded

GunMetal appears to work great on nVidia-class hardware, as the GeForceFX series has performance leads in all categories. In these tests, we see the GeForceFX 5900XT giving a higher level of performance compared to the Radeon 9800XT. Of course, this appears to be a rare circumstance, as the majority of other benchmarks have shown the Radeon 9800-series to be a much better performer. Nevertheless, the 5900XT gives very solid numbers in this game / benchmark.

is there a reason why ati hardware doesn't seem to fare well in gunmetal? is it simply a matter of nv drivers being optimized for a "synthetic" benchmark?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
i have known what relative means for quite some time. i was simply pointing out to you the dictionary definition of "relative term" as you obviously don't understand the concept; if you did, you wouldn't be asking your question.

no you were being smug as you were left with no other answer apparently.. perhaps desperate even?

in order for any concept to be "relative", it has to be compared to something. you trumpet the term "relativity", however it is absolutely meaningless unless you have a standard in which to measure it against, and you offer nothing. so this line of reasoning you are taking this discussion is meaningless. let's get back to the matter at hand, shall we?

use of futureproof as a relative term:

a is not as futureproof as b

use of futureproof as an absolute term:

b is futureproof

when we speak of futureproof in pc hardware, we are not talking in absulutes but rahter as a relative concept. understood?

as for gunmetal, where are you geting your info from? from what i have seen ati and nvidia are pretty close when it comes to that benchmark. nvidia is bound to get some favortism in the codeing though as it was designed for xbox, it is a twimtbp title and it doesn't use any ps2.0 shaders.

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: jim1976
But you seem to miss my point here. When I say futureproof I'm talking about 12-18 months approximately.
It's not like we are talkin about after three years from now. It would be totally unrealistic, since we are talking about a technological sector that is constantly and rapidly changing.
So even for this period of 12-18 months ALL OF US should care for the best high end gpu available now.
So your comment on the gf2-gf4 is not applicable IMHO.
It's not only for ppl that cannnot afford or simply don't want to spend money all the time for a new gpu.
It's also for those ppl who upgrade constantly, because it gives the the satisfaction of making the wiser choice.
That is applied of course only if you care for your money and you don't spare them just for fun.

no, i don't miss your point; i think you miss mine & you're getting kind of off-track.. the subject is whether the 5900 or 9800 is more "future proof" than the other..

your 12-18 mo. is actually a reasonable time, and my point is neither the 5900 or 9800 will be obsolete with that time, and splitting hairs over which is more future proof is futile as neither will really outlast the other by a significant amount of time imo.

the gf2 comment is simply to make a point that "acceptable" performace is purely a subjective term, and many have lower standards than others. like i said, some are still using their gf4mx ;p

We can argue about this for hours, and quite frankly I will not do this, simply because we have a different perspective on this one.
Last word. If you want a high end card that you paid so much money for it, to:

1. Perform in most of the cases worse than the competitor's high end card
2. Don't use the ps2.0 because it's bringing A HIGH END CARD TO ITS KNEES, and instead use a mixed codepath
3. Has lower IQ in some cases (debatable though I admit)

then that's fine with me, believe what you want. I wouldn't though.
And suppose the new Nvidia series perform well in dx9, what will Nvidia do for this line that is problematic?
You think that it would care for the problems that they will most probably have, and always care for it?
Let's wait and see, because I don't think so.

 

[Pete]

I think GunMetal was developed on nV hardware or funded by nV itself. It also uses PS1.1 and VS2.0, IIRC, not exactly a typical "DX9" combo. It probably performs better on nV hardware simply because of a lot of optimizations, but who really knows in this crazy world. 😉

 

[CaiNaM]

snowso your answer should have been "relative to ati's 9800pro" 😛

but doesn't add anything to what's already been said...

as for gunmetal, where are you geting your info from? from what i have seen ati and nvidia are pretty close when it comes to that benchmark. nvidia is bound to get some favortism in the codeing though as it was designed for xbox, it is a twimtbp title and it doesn't use any ps2.0 shaders.

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/print_content.asp?id=gffx5900xt&cookie%5Ftest=1

jim

Last word.

good, cause you're simply regurtitating the same things already stated in this thread several times.

If you want a high end card that you paid so much money for it, to:

1. Perform in most of the cases worse than the competitor's high end card

so should i be pissed at ati for those cases where my nv card outperforms it?

2. Don't use the ps2.0 because it's bringing A HIGH END CARD TO ITS KNEES, and instead use a mixed codepath

the mixed codepath, while a poor decision, doesn't bother me. they've already shown considerable performance improvements in later driver revsions, tho still noticeably lacking in some instances to ati's. as far as instances of ps1.1 instead of ps2, many "examples" show little, if any differences in IQ, tho i have seen a few examples where ps2.0 was visibly "doing more" and it showed. whether you like what it was doing or not is subjective, but again a noticeable difference. unfortunately at this point, the rather limited "far cry" demo is really the only thing to base this on. at any rate, the difference in shader quality, while inferiror to ati, will hardly cause anyone to toss their video card away.

3. Has lower IQ in some cases (debatable though I admit)

yes, but it works both ways.. there is one instance i've seen where ps2 shader (imo) makes a noticeable difference for the better: http://members.shaw.ca/spiritwalker/pics/dx9diff.html

the other thing noticeably lacking in any of these points is that the 5900 in most cases overclock to near 5950u speeds and up.. while it remains comptetive at stock speed, overclocked it certainly matches and exceeds the 9800pro in many instances.

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
snowso your answer should have been "relative to ati's 9800pro" 😛

but doesn't add anything to what's already been said...

as for gunmetal, where are you geting your info from? from what i have seen ati and nvidia are pretty close when it comes to that benchmark. nvidia is bound to get some favortism in the codeing though as it was designed for xbox, it is a twimtbp title and it doesn't use any ps2.0 shaders.

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/print_content.asp?id=gffx5900xt&cookie%5Ftest=1

jim

Last word.

good, cause you're simply regurtitating the same things already stated in this thread several times.

If you want a high end card that you paid so much money for it, to:

1. Perform in most of the cases worse than the competitor's high end card

so should i be pissed at ati for those cases where my nv card outperforms it?

2. Don't use the ps2.0 because it's bringing A HIGH END CARD TO ITS KNEES, and instead use a mixed codepath

the mixed codepath, while a poor decision, doesn't bother me. they've already shown considerable performance improvements in later driver revsions, tho still noticeably lacking in some instances to ati's. as far as instances of ps1.1 instead of ps2, many "examples" show little, if any differences in IQ, tho i have seen a few examples where ps2.0 was visibly "doing more" and it showed. whether you like what it was doing or not is subjective, but again a noticeable difference. unfortunately at this point, the rather limited "far cry" demo is really the only thing to base this on. at any rate, the difference in shader quality, while inferiror to ati, will hardly cause anyone to toss their video card away.

3. Has lower IQ in some cases (debatable though I admit)

yes, but it works both ways.. there is one instance i've seen where ps2 shader (imo) makes a noticeable difference for the better: http://members.shaw.ca/spiritwalker/pics/dx9diff.html

the other thing noticeably lacking in any of these points is that the 5900 in most cases overclock to near 5950u speeds and up.. while it remains comptetive at stock speed, overclocked it certainly matches and exceeds the 9800pro in many instances.

So you don't care maybe for the only game (FAR CRY), that actually shows real difference between ps2 and ps1.1 and probably an example of future games?
Oh, about your O/C statement, I have to say that the first card that reached 10,000 points in 3dmark03 was an o/c hercules 9800xt. Of course it's the matter of creditability of 3dmark03, but this could be saying something to you.
Good cards with excellent cooling, always have great o/c capabilities.

And you didn't answer me on the issue with the future drivers

 

[CaiNaM]

So you don't care maybe for the only game (FAR CRY), that actually shows real difference between ps2 and ps1.1 and probably an example of future games?

don't care for? not sure I understand that.

as for being an "example of future games"? no, not as an absolute judgement. i mean, if we used halo for an example of "future games" we would have assumed the 9800pro was crap. however that was not the case, as it's apparent there are coding issues.

Oh, about your O/C statement, I have to say that the first card that reached 10,000 points in 3dmark03 was an o/c hercules 9800xt. Of course it's the matter of creditability of 3dmark03, but this could be saying something to you.
Good cards with excellent cooling, always have great o/c capabilities.

that's cool and all, but i don't see how that's relevant. first, it's one synthetic benchmark, second i don't know when that happened (ati already admitted driver specifically optimized for 3dm, apoligized, and promised not to in the future) and third, but certainly not last, that's an xt, with unknown cooling from a manufacturer discountinuing their products...... the 5900, which is the topic of this discussion, will achieve those speeds w/ stock cooling.

which brings up another point.. in your ranting about "high end cards" and all that, remember we are not even discussing the flagship parts, rather cards avail online for $160-$200.

And you didn't answer me on the issue with the future drivers

i'm not sure.. i don't have a crystal ball. precisely the reason it's my opinion you can't predict the "futureproofness" of these cards, even if there was such a thing. based on the past, nvidia has a great history w/ drivers and product support, however that's not necessarily an indication of what the future will hold. i mean, who could have predicted the disappointment that was the 5800 based on nv's previous track record of fast hardware?

my personal opinion is that, at least in the short term, the 3dfx acquisition hurt nv more than helped. delayed product launch, disappointing hardware, questionable engineering decisions (can you say custom codepaths?), etc. tthen to take the "questionable" engineering thing further, the whole "ps1.1 is as good as ps2" sound alot like "16 bit color is as good as 32bit color".... no, i am not above slamming nv where they have it coming. at any rate, this was partially rectified with the release of the 59xx series, but hardly enough to restore full confidence.

oh, btw.. you lied about the "last word" thing. welcome back 🙂

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

So you don't care maybe for the only game (FAR CRY), that actually shows real difference between ps2 and ps1.1 and probably an example of future games?

don't care for? not sure I understand that.

as for being an "example of future games"? no, not as an absolute judgement. i mean, if we used halo for an example of "future games" we would have assumed the 9800pro was crap. however that was not the case, as it's apparent there are coding issues.

Oh, about your O/C statement, I have to say that the first card that reached 10,000 points in 3dmark03 was an o/c hercules 9800xt. Of course it's the matter of creditability of 3dmark03, but this could be saying something to you.
Good cards with excellent cooling, always have great o/c capabilities.

that's cool and all, but i don't see how that's relevant. first, it's one synthetic benchmark, second i don't know when that happened (ati already admitted driver specifically optimized for 3dm, apoligized, and promised not to in the future) and third, but certainly not last, that's an xt, with unknown cooling from a manufacturer discountinuing their products...... the 5900, which is the topic of this discussion, will achieve those speeds w/ stock cooling.

which brings up another point.. in your ranting about "high end cards" and all that, remember we are not even discussing the flagship parts, rather cards avail online for $160-$200.

And you didn't answer me on the issue with the future drivers

i'm not sure.. i don't have a crystal ball. precisely the reason it's my opinion you can't predict the "futureproofness" of these cards, even if there was such a thing. based on the past, nvidia has a great history w/ drivers and product support, however that's not necessarily an indication of what the future will hold. i mean, who could have predicted the disappointment that was the 5800 based on nv's previous track record of fast hardware?

my personal opinion is that, at least in the short term, the 3dfx acquisition hurt nv more than helped. delayed product launch, disappointing hardware, questionable engineering decisions (can you say custom codepaths?), etc. tthen to take the "questionable" engineering thing further, the whole "ps1.1 is as good as ps2" sound alot like "16 bit color is as good as 32bit color".... no, i am not above slamming nv where they have it coming. at any rate, this was partially rectified with the release of the 59xx series, but hardly enough to restore full confidence.

oh, btw.. you lied about the "last word" thing. welcome back 🙂

Well I can't help myself since you're such an openminded person. 🙂

Anyway, did you honestly used Halo as an indicator for future games?
The game IMO sucked big time regarding graphics and source code, it had only excellent gameplay and AI.
Far cry though, shows remarkable capabilities of dx9, and can help as an indicator for future games.
This is not absolute or sure, it's an indicator.
And that is what we are doing here hypothesizing, based on some indications, don't why?
That is a game that we have waited to see differences.

As for the drivers issues, you said it yourself. It's hard to restore confidence and rely on a company, when mistakes like that were made. Even if this company is the great Nvidia.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

which brings up another point.. in your ranting about "high end cards" and all that, remember we are not even discussing the flagship parts, rather cards avail online for $160-$200.

lol, no we are not; but no wonder butting heads so much as you don't even understand the topic. 🙂