More examples of good ole Unions doing their best

[sonz70]

Check out Vacation days in other countries, the regular 14-21 that we get is among the lowest.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Unions were vital, and positive in their day. but like most other things... it has become corrupt and greedy. It is more about "how much can I get, not matter what" than it is about being fair to and protecting the workers.

Some like the Building Trade Unions still are.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: Armitage

Originally posted by: ironwing
Go unions! The monied side likes to cast this type of thing as greedy workers doing in their own companies and that is hogwash. Corporations exist to make money. If the companies agree to the contract terms it is because they can make more by doing so than not. The minute the company decides that it can make more by dumping the contract it will. Only one way for the workers to find their true worth to the company: push it.

If it was a free labor market, I'd agree with you. But it's not. Unions are to powerful and the companies don't have the cash reserves to break them. So instead, they'll just keep shipping the jobs overseas every chance they get.

According to the article, even the lowest US plants have 36 days off a year. WTF? I think I'm doing pretty good at 15 days - I think I hit 20 days at the 7 year point if I stay at the same company. And that's it. I don't think there is anywhere in my career field where I could get to 36 days a year. One company I used to work for, you could get to 30 days after about 25 years. Alot of people in proffesional fields start at 10 days a year, sometimes only 5.

So form a union and find out how much you are really worth to your employer instead of complaining about other workers who did and discovered they were worth a lot.

Actually, my company has a proffesional union. But it's a free labor market, so there is very little they can do. In practice, the fact that the industry is vital & competative does alot more for our salary & benefits then that union ever has. If any company falls behind the industry in wages & benefits they will have trouble recruiting & retaining people. We get paid very well and have excellent benefits. But then, they are highly skilled positions.

 

[sonz70]

Table 1
Legally Mandated Paid Leave in Europe and United States, 2000




Austria

30 days

Denmark

30 days

Finland

30 days

France

30 days

Spain

30 days

Luxembourg

25 days

Sweden

25 days

Germany

24 days

Belgium
4 weeks


Greece
4 weeks


Ireland
4 weeks


Netherlands
4 weeks


United Kingdom
4 weeks


Italy

4 weeks

Portugal

22 days

European Union
4 weeks


Canada 3)
2 weeks


United States
0 weeks
0 days

Its from a website that is down right now, though I cashed it for this study

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:-6n...try+comparison&hl=en&start=1&client=ig

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: Armitage

Originally posted by: ironwing
Go unions! The monied side likes to cast this type of thing as greedy workers doing in their own companies and that is hogwash. Corporations exist to make money. If the companies agree to the contract terms it is because they can make more by doing so than not. The minute the company decides that it can make more by dumping the contract it will. Only one way for the workers to find their true worth to the company: push it.

If it was a free labor market, I'd agree with you. But it's not. Unions are to powerful and the companies don't have the cash reserves to break them. So instead, they'll just keep shipping the jobs overseas every chance they get.

According to the article, even the lowest US plants have 36 days off a year. WTF? I think I'm doing pretty good at 15 days - I think I hit 20 days at the 7 year point if I stay at the same company. And that's it. I don't think there is anywhere in my career field where I could get to 36 days a year. One company I used to work for, you could get to 30 days after about 25 years. Alot of people in proffesional fields start at 10 days a year, sometimes only 5.

So form a union and find out how much you are really worth to your employer instead of complaining about other workers who did and discovered they were worth a lot.

There is more to it than that. Even though closed shops are technically illegal in non right to work states you will still be required to pay union dues to work in a union shop. The only way a company can choose not to enter collective bargaining is to move operations to a right to work state. In that situation your ideas do apply since both parties now have the freedom to choose.

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: DearQT

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: DearQT

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: Triumph
i dislike unions, but this is in canada so i don't care.

yea but if the candian unions get more benefits, then the US autoworkers will push for more as well

That's a slippery slope argument. Maybe you should make the connection rather than making such leap in your argument. How do you know that the US autoworkers would do the same? Is there reasonable expectation? If so, what are they?

"The negotiations are being watched closely because they will set the tone for talks next year with the United Auto Workers in the United States, where Detroit automakers are seeking relief from soaring health care and other costs."

not a huge leap....

It may not be a huge leap, but it still is a leap because the article says the following:

"Canadian workers already get more time off than their U.S. counterparts. GM, Ford and Chrysler also want to reduce retiree benefits expenses to cut North American operating costs.

The negotiations are being watched closely because they will set the tone for talks next year with the United Auto Workers in the United States, where Detroit automakers are seeking relief from soaring health care and other costs."

"Given that the dynamics of the industry at all three companies are much different in Canada than they are in the U.S., our bargaining has to be based on the contribution that our members and their families have made to the success of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler,' he said."

"Because of the additional time off enjoyed by Canadian workers, the operating costs of GM, Ford and Chrysler are 6 to 8 percent higher in Canada, compared to Big Three operations in the United States, independent auto analyst Dennis DesRosiers said."

I don't think any of the paragraphs/statements suggest unreasonable or luxurious demands from US auto workers as, arguably, the Canadians' requests. And even the article does not suggest that the US auto workers will suddenly demand more if the Canadians get what they want. It only suggests that they might be successful, more aggressive or persuasive, at least, at getting what they already sought from the automakers.

Congratulations, you took multiple paragraphs to say what I already said in one sentence. If the candians get more benefits, its likely that the US unions will push for more benefits as well. Anything else to add to the discussion or are you just going to disagree with my statements and then reprove them over multiple paragraphs?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Take this thread to P&N and get BBond and 1EZduzit in on this. :laugh:

 

[Deeko]

Unions are BS.

We aren't allowed to do any work on our house, because while its ours, its legally owned by Drexel, and Drexel has a union contract. We weren't even allowed to rent a wetvac when the carpets got stained. It took them MONTHS to finally get around to doing it,

I would never watch the show, but I remember Real World Philly almost got canceled because MTV was going to hire non-union workers. The union threatened to heckle and picket the cameras everywhere they want, and basically barricade the street around the house the entire time it was filming.

Unions are so necessary though.

 

[Kalbi]

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah the Auto union is one of the biggest scumbag unions around.

though not sure wich is worse. the Auto union or teacher's union.

all unions are evil.

 

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: DearQT

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: DearQT

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: Triumph
i dislike unions, but this is in canada so i don't care.

yea but if the candian unions get more benefits, then the US autoworkers will push for more as well

That's a slippery slope argument. Maybe you should make the connection rather than making such leap in your argument. How do you know that the US autoworkers would do the same? Is there reasonable expectation? If so, what are they?

"The negotiations are being watched closely because they will set the tone for talks next year with the United Auto Workers in the United States, where Detroit automakers are seeking relief from soaring health care and other costs."

not a huge leap....

It may not be a huge leap, but it still is a leap because the article says the following:

"Canadian workers already get more time off than their U.S. counterparts. GM, Ford and Chrysler also want to reduce retiree benefits expenses to cut North American operating costs.

The negotiations are being watched closely because they will set the tone for talks next year with the United Auto Workers in the United States, where Detroit automakers are seeking relief from soaring health care and other costs."

"Given that the dynamics of the industry at all three companies are much different in Canada than they are in the U.S., our bargaining has to be based on the contribution that our members and their families have made to the success of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler,' he said."

"Because of the additional time off enjoyed by Canadian workers, the operating costs of GM, Ford and Chrysler are 6 to 8 percent higher in Canada, compared to Big Three operations in the United States, independent auto analyst Dennis DesRosiers said."

I don't think any of the paragraphs/statements suggest unreasonable or luxurious demands from US auto workers as, arguably, the Canadians' requests. And even the article does not suggest that the US auto workers will suddenly demand more if the Canadians get what they want. It only suggests that they might be successful, more aggressive or persuasive, at least, at getting what they already sought from the automakers.

Congratulations, you took multiple paragraphs to say what I already said in one sentence. If the candians get more benefits, its likely that the US unions will push for more benefits as well. Anything else to add to the discussion or are you just going to disagree with my statements and then reprove them over multiple paragraphs?

:roll:

You know what you said is different! You said if the Canadians get more benefits, then the US auto unions will push for more benefits. That's logically equivalent to saying that if the US auto workers' union do not push for more benefits, then the Canadians did not get more benefits. You didn't even speculate. You affirmed it. Why have you suddenly changed it to a speculation by saying "likely"? :roll:

Again, I point out that the US auto workers' union already have intent on what they want to bring to the negotiating table. Evidently, it's not the same as the demands of the Canadian auto workers' union. And there's no evidence to reasonably expect that the demands would suddenly increase upon the success of the Canadians. However, it is reasonable to think that they might reduce their demands if the Canadians' demands fail. And they would be at the upper hand in bargaining power in the event that the Canadians' auto union succeed; however, that in no way suggests demand for an increase in benefits of what is already being sought.

 

[Squisher]

They can ask for anything they want, but will they get it?

Although, many auto companies, foreign and domestic, are turning to Canada for many of they manufacturing needs. They're doing this for the same reasons many auto companies are turning away from the US and Mexico, that is, the lack of skilled or trainable people.

Many auto company jobs require little skill, but I think many of you would be surprised to find out what it takes to a quality part to today's demanding standards. Many factory jobs take years to learn fully.

Anyone can take a machine that is running perfectly and make good parts it is when you have to work around the inadequacies of the machine that is not up to snuff is when skill is really shown.

But I digress, I have no doubt though that all of us in the auto industry will be required to make concessions in the coming days, just less so in Canada.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Squisher
They can ask for anything they want, but will they get it?

Although, many auto companies, foreign and domestic, are turning to Canada for many of they manufacturing needs. They're doing this for the same reasons many auto companies are turning away from the US and Mexico, that is, the lack of skilled or trainable people.

Many auto company jobs require little skill, but I think many of you would be surprised to find out what it takes to a quality part to today's demanding standards. Many factory jobs take years to learn fully.

Anyone can take a machine that is running perfectly and make good parts it is when you have to work around the inadequacies of the machine that is not up to snuff is when skill is really shown.

But I digress, I have no doubt though that all of us in the auto industry will be required to make concessions in the coming days, just less so in Canada.

if they don't get it they strike. so nothing gets done.

they have the power to destroy the company from within. don't fool yourself thinking that if they get told no then they will continue to work.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: Triumph
i dislike unions, but this is in canada so i don't care.

yea but if the candian unions get more benefits, then the US autoworkers will push for more as well

Fire em and replace em with Mexicans

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: Triumph
i dislike unions, but this is in canada so i don't care.

yea but if the candian unions get more benefits, then the US autoworkers will push for more as well

Fire em and replace em with Mexicans

That's what my post was about. The Mexican experiment isn't working quite as planned. If you build a business model where the jobs are highly unskilled or everybody in the facility can do everyone else's job then it might work. But, in your normal auto assembly line this is not the case.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
I wonder how many of those days off are due to plant shutdowns? Right now, all of the big 3 here in Windsor (automotive capital of Canada) are on shutdown with the exception of skilled trades workers and maintenance staff. It's either two or three weeks...

It's called "retooling," and it happens for 2 weeks twice a year. Usually in late June/early July and then the last 2 weeks of December.

Modern unions are a form of legal coercive monopoly. They have a product, labor, and they force a monopoly in the sale of that product. I am not opposed to unions, but I am opposed to the current corrupt monopolistic makeup of unions.