More dominant: Kobe or Tim Duncan?

[tHa ShIzNiT]

Sactoking? Sacramento Kings?

Easily one of my all time favorite teams was the Kings with Bibby, Divac, Webber, Christie, Jackson, Peja. Those were some of the most brilliant display of offense ever seen in the nba. The passing was a thing of beauty.

yeah that was great passing back then. those guys had played with each other for a long time at a certain point...everyone knew where all 4 other guys were gonna be at any given time.

 

[edro]

Don't care, just wanna watch Game 6.

 

[Ayrahvon]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/
http://www.82games.com

LOL, 82games.com's "Simple Stats" has Duncan and Parker over Kobe - http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM

They supposedly also upgraded www.nba.com/stats to be a better reference for fans.

Thanks for the link. Wow Duncan has been insane in the playoffs. 4th best in win shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

 

[SP33Demon]

Thanks for the link. Wow Duncan has been insane in the playoffs. 4th best in win shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

Yeah, he's even better than Wilt. That's nuts.

 

[SP33Demon]

Obviously irrelevant to my point.

You're right, talking about rings and DeMarcus Ware is incredibly irrelevant because he will never get one.

 

[dougp]

You're right, talking about rings and DeMarcus Ware is incredibly irrelevant because he will never get one.

Hey now, keep the Cowboy insults out of the thread.

 

[Red Storm]

Duncan's scoring Since 2005-2006:

18.6
20.0
19.3
19.3
17.9
13.4
15.4
17.8

Average of 17.7 points per game.

I'm sorry but that's not dominant at all. It's consistent, but not dominant. Only once in the past 8 years has he reached 20 ppg.

Kobe's average during the same span: 28.7 points per game.

 

[dbk]

I think more dominant: Kobe.. Duncan - more historical, generational.. I would want Kobe for that final shot but 50 yrs later Duncan will more remembered and celebrated due to his longetivity, consistency, no-drama nature of his career, the RINGS, and the fact that he is a big man. Who else do you have in this era besides Shaq and Duncan?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Duncan's scoring Since 2005-2006:

18.6
20.0
19.3
19.3
17.9
13.4
15.4
17.8

I'm sorry but that's not dominant at all. It's consistent, but not dominant. Only once in the past 8 years has he reached 20 ppg.

Points is a bonus with a big man. Stats dont account for altered shots that results in misses, the guys that won't drive because they are afraid of getting swatted, the seals or picks that get guys easy layups, etc.. An offensive rebound can be just as demoralizing as a dunk.

 

[darkewaffle]

I think more dominant: Kobe.. Duncan - more historical, generational.. I would want Kobe for that final shot but 50 yrs later Duncan will more remembered and celebrated due to his longetivity, consistency, no-drama nature of his career, the RINGS, and the fact that he is a big man. Who else do you have in this era besides Shaq and Duncan?

Mutombo at least gets a mention, though he doesn't have the offensive prowess. But Duncan and Shaq's careers both overlapped for 5+ years with Ewing/Olajuwon/Malone/Robinson/Ming. Guess it depends how you split up the eras and how important you really think rings are to an individual's legacy. To me, rings are valuable no doubt, but I think that's ultimately more about the team than the player.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I think more dominant: Kobe.. Duncan - more historical, generational.. I would want Kobe for that final shot but 50 yrs later Duncan will more remembered and celebrated due to his longetivity, consistency, no-drama nature of his career, the RINGS, and the fact that he is a big man. Who else do you have in this era besides Shaq and Duncan?

Dirk. Yes he's not the traditional big man. He basically changed the way the nba views a big man and what they can do though. Should definitely be considered among the greats IMO.

 

[Red Storm]

Points is a bonus with a big man. Stats dont account for altered shots that results in misses, the guys that won't drive because they are afraid of getting swatted, the seals or picks that get guys easy layups, etc.. An offensive rebound can be just as demoralizing as a dunk.

Points are a "bonus"?

They play different positions so there's some obvious differences in the expectations of their stats. Duncan should by nature average more boards and blocks, just as Kobe should average more steals and assists. I'd say a big man has to average ~25 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocks to be considered dominant, which Duncan did for a good while, but not the last 8 years. And for guards, I think they need to average at least ~25 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists to be considered dominant.

Duncan was a lot better in his first 8 years than his 2nd 8 years. Kobe does not have that same falloff, he's kept it up which is more impressive, hence why I think Kobe has been the more dominant player overall.

 

[ProchargeMe]

Tim Duncan has always been a good player and is definitely solid, but Kobe has been overall more dominant. I'd rather watch a Kobe highlight than duncan any day, he's just so much more versatile.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Points are a "bonus"?

They play different positions so there's some obvious differences in the expectations of their stats. Duncan should by nature average more boards and blocks, just as Kobe should average more steals and assists. I'd say a big man has to average ~25 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocks to be considered dominant, which Duncan did for a good while, but not the last 8 years. And for guards, I think they need to average at least ~25 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists to be considered dominant. Duncan was a lot better in his first 8 years than his 2nd 8 years.

25pts and 5 assists for a pg? You even watch basketball? Id much rather have 15 pts and 10 assists from my pg. To me the prototypical pg is Jason Kidd. Points who cares? Give me the lockdown D, the insane court vision, hands are strong as anyone in the nba, and a knack for rebounding, strips, and steals. Also dude could read a passing lane better than anyone. Dude couldn't move last year and was still getting steals by reading the lanes.

 

[Red Storm]

25pts and 5 assists for a pg? You even watch basketball? Id much rather have 15 pts and 10 assists from my pg. To me the prototypical pg is Jason Kidd. Points who cares? Give me the lockdown D, the insane court vision, hands are strong as anyone in the nba, and a knack for rebounding, strips, and steals. Also dude could read a passing lane better than anyone. Dude couldn't move last year and was still getting steals by reading the lanes.

Kobe is not a point guard, do you watch basketball?

Duncan has always averaged the same amount of steals for his entire career: Less than 1 per game.

Look, it's really simple. Duncan's numbers declined in the 2nd half of his career, Kobe's did not. Declining stats are not synonymous with dominant.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Kobe is not a point guard, do you watch basketball?

Duncan has always averaged the same amount of steals for his entire career: Less than 1 per game.

Look, it's really simple. Duncan's numbers declined in the 2nd half of his career, Kobe's did not. Declining stats are not synonymous with dominant.

I thought you said you want 25/5/5 from a pg. My bad.

I still put more value in Duncan's points when you combine it with all of the other intangibles.

 

[SP33Demon]

Duncan's scoring Since 2005-2006:

18.6
20.0
19.3
19.3
17.9
13.4
15.4
17.8

Average of 17.7 points per game.

I'm sorry but that's not dominant at all. It's consistent, but not dominant. Only once in the past 8 years has he reached 20 ppg.

Kobe's average during the same span: 28.7 points per game.

Um, rebounds? blocks? You can't just look at points.

 

[dougp]

Kobe is not a point guard, do you watch basketball?

Duncan has always averaged the same amount of steals for his entire career: Less than 1 per game.

Look, it's really simple. Duncan's numbers declined in the 2nd half of his career, Kobe's did not. Declining stats are not synonymous with dominant.

Duncan's minutes went down, as well as plays being called for him - there was a transition to Parker that you need to account for in his career. Kobe never had anyone that he transitioned the team to. Duncan's per/36 has remained consistent since coming into the league.

 

[Red Storm]

Um, rebounds? blocks? You can't just look at points.

Steals and assists too.

Duncan's rebounds and blocks fall in line with what you expect from a good big man, and Kobe's rebounds, assists and steals fall in line with what you expect from a good guard. It's the points that show a big differential. Duncan's numbers start falling off half way through his career while Kobe keeps it up. That right there ends the debate.

Duncan's minutes went down, as well as plays being called for him - there was a transition to Parker that you need to account for in his career. Kobe never had anyone that he transitioned the team to. Duncan's per/36 has remained consistent since coming into the league.

And does that sound like something you do with a dominant player? No, not at all. His usage went down because not only was he no longer dominant, he wasn't even the best player on his own team anymore.

That's proof enough of who has been the more dominate player.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Kobe just increases shot volume the older he gets. He's definitely not the same player he was.

 

[Red Storm]

Kobe just increases shot volume the older he gets. He's definitely not the same player he was.

Again, not true. Go look it up. This past year was one of his best.

 

[SP33Demon]

Steals and assists too.

Duncan's rebounds and blocks fall in line with what you expect from a good big man, and Kobe's rebounds, assists and steals fall in line with what you expect from a good guard. It's the points that show a big differential. Duncan's numbers start falling off half way through his career while Kobe keeps it up. That right there ends the debate.



And does that sound like something you do with a dominant player? No, not at all. His usage went down because not only was he no longer dominant, he wasn't even the best player on his own team anymore.

That's proof enough of who has been the more dominate player.

Ok let's get some mathematical proof instead of "oh TDs numbers went down and Kobe's stayed where they were at".

Let's get some more metrics to evaluate the two:

Win shares (Active players):
Duncan 2nd, Kobe 4th
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_active.html

ELO ratings (All time):
Duncan 7th, Kobe 78th
ELO ratings (Active players):
Duncan 2nd, Kobe 19th
http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi#ratings

Defensive Win Shares:
Duncan 5th All time, 1st Active
Kobe 46th All time, 11th Active
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

Offensive Win Shares:
Kobe 9th All time, 1st Active
Duncan 28th All time, 8th Active

Player Efficiency Rating (Active Players):
Duncan 4th, Kobe 7th
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_active.html

Kobe is handily beaten in just about all advanced statistical basketball measures except Offensive Win Shares, but Duncan is 1st in Defensive Win Shares. However, Kobe is only 9th all time in OWS while Duncan is 5th all time in DWS, so Duncan's career body of work has done more than Kobe from a holistic, historic perspective.

 

[Insomniator]

Kobe just increases shot volume the older he gets. He's definitely not the same player he was.

Completely false. Watch the games, hell look at the stats.

Kobe has played at an elite level for longer than Duncan, but if there was some sure fire equation to define most dominant I have a feeling Duncan would win.

A great big man that can play the 4 or 5 probably always effects the game more than a guard.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Points are a "bonus"?

They play different positions so there's some obvious differences in the expectations of their stats. Duncan should by nature average more boards and blocks, just as Kobe should average more steals and assists. I'd say a big man has to average ~25 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocks to be considered dominant, which Duncan did for a good while, but not the last 8 years. And for guards, I think they need to average at least ~25 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists to be considered dominant.

Duncan was a lot better in his first 8 years than his 2nd 8 years. Kobe does not have that same falloff, he's kept it up which is more impressive, hence why I think Kobe has been the more dominant player overall.

They play in different systems...Kobe basically got to run the show, took whatever shots he wanted good, bad, or ugly. Pop doesn't like that garbage fly. He knows he has other scorers during the the Duncan era (Robinson, Parker, Ginobli) so he would not tolerate bad shot selection. Kobe on the other hand has cart blanche to do anything he pleases. Part of Duncan's dominance is directly related to his savvy and decision making.

 

[W.C. Nimoy]

Most Dominant: Duncan
Greatest peak value: Duncan
Skills/all round game (no weaknesses): Kobe
Ultimate Legacy/resume: too close to call atm