More dick moves and it's not even political- United Airlines

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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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The funny thing is, "the customer is always right" is an expression that many companies adhered to (and many still do, but IMO less than before) for quite some time, and while there are some obvious flaws in that philosophy, there are a shitload more flaws in the idea that the customer is never right.

You pay for a service, you expect it to be delivered. If it hasn't been delivered, you demand it. It really is as simple as that.

Furthermore, if this guy hadn't acted like this, then United would still feel that their method of operation was correct.

It's best if all parties did the right thing.

In this case, United made the mistake of not accounting for their internal seat requirements, and instead of paying (extra) for that mistake took it out on passengers. Fortunately we have a fair enough court system which'll hopefully make things right.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
They settled for an undisclosed amount in 17 days, but somewhere somehow someone is still arguing that it was Dao who broke the law and UAL was completely in the right..
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
They settled for an undisclosed amount in 17 days, but somewhere somehow someone is still arguing that it was Dao who broke the law and UAL was completely in the right..


I'm sure those folks will be along any minute to admit they were mistaken OR turn it around and say something about the PC mob forced United to settle despite the facts and its just another sign of how liberals have run amuck and are destroying good American companies.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
10,914
2,061
126
They settled for an undisclosed amount in 17 days, but somewhere somehow someone is still arguing that it was Dao who broke the law and UAL was completely in the right..
Funny how most of those have stopped visiting this thread and the one in ATOT. Except for @Paladin3 who continues to insist Dao was trespassing and refusing a legal order...

In fairness UAL is paying for the C-team cop's mistake(s) but it's their own damn fault for the chain of events leading up to that. And for their apalling response in the immediate aftermath. I know all the legacy airlines are pretty much the same, but I can't see myself flying United again for a long time.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
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Funny how most of those have stopped visiting this thread and the one in ATOT. Except for @Paladin3 who continues to insist Dao was trespassing and refusing a legal order...

In fairness UAL is paying for the C-team cop's mistake(s) but it's their own damn fault for the chain of events leading up to that. And for their apalling response in the immediate aftermath. I know all the legacy airlines are pretty much the same, but I can't see myself flying United again for a long time.

Yeah, and that's the only point I was ever trying to make, and only because someone compared Dao's removal to rape. I never said it was a wise move on United's part. What they did was the exact opposite of good customer service, and they were punished for it by a drop in stock price and customer backlash. They settled quickly to get this out of the news and attempt to move on, after realizing they screwed the pooch on multiple levels.

What you folks are confusing is US law vs. good customer service. Nothing United did was actually illegal. Doctor Dao was trespassing once he refused to deplane. Businesses have the right to act stupid and treat customers like shit so long as they are not violating their civil rights. NOBODY has the right to remain on board or on the property of another person or business once they have been asked to leave, weather a paying customer or otherwise. If you refuse to leave reasonable force can be used to remove you. The only exceptions to these laws are those such as the protections afforded tenants in their home, when various legal processes must be followed before eviction.

I've only been making this ONE LITTLE POINT about US private property rights and trespass laws the whole time. I've never for a second supported what United did, and only made the point when someone compared the doc's removal to actual RAPE.

But feel free to misrepresent my comments if it makes you feel better. Reading comprehension for the MFL.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
They settled for an undisclosed amount in 17 days, but somewhere somehow someone is still arguing that it was Dao who broke the law and UAL was completely in the right..
Dao did break the law; United just broke it worse, on camera. No way could they credibly argue that giving a 69 year old doctor a concussion, broken nose, and two knocked out teeth was an appropriate level of force. Not only were they going to get terrible publicity, but if and when this went to a jury trial UAL was going to lose huge. Even under a judge, UAL was likely to lose big. Settling makes absolute sense front their point of view. They've still suffered a huge amount of PR damage - I would fly them only as an absolute last resort and they weren't even on my radar - but at least they won't be suffering intense PR damage every week for the next year.

One thing companies find it difficult to learn is that having the legal right to do a thing does not make that thing moral or smart. Hopefully, D.C. looks at this case and does something to limit the airlines' ability to throw off paying customers for their own convenience.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
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Dao did break the law; United just broke it worse, on camera. No way could they credibly argue that giving a 69 year old doctor a concussion, broken nose, and two knocked out teeth was an appropriate level of force. Not only were they going to get terrible publicity, but if and when this went to a jury trial UAL was going to lose huge. Even under a judge, UAL was likely to lose big. Settling makes absolute sense front their point of view. They've still suffered a huge amount of PR damage - I would fly them only as an absolute last resort and they weren't even on my radar - but at least they won't be suffering intense PR damage every week for the next year.

One thing companies find it difficult to learn is that having the legal right to do a thing does not make that thing moral or smart. Hopefully, D.C. looks at this case and does something to limit the airlines' ability to throw off paying customers for their own convenience.
So which legal statute - specifically - do you believe that Dao violated?
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,300
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So which legal statute - specifically - do you believe that Dao violated?
disobeying a police order.

and no, a concussion, broken nose, and two knocked out teeth is not the proper response to him disobeying.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
disobeying a police order.

and no, a concussion, broken nose, and two knocked out teeth is not the proper response to him disobeying.
Do you happen to have the Illinois statute number on that one? And to be clear, Dao was refusing to comply, not resisting. There is a difference.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,300
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Do you happen to have the Illinois statute number on that one? And to be clear, Dao was refusing to comply, not resisting. There is a difference.
don't know the statute.

ok, so dao refused to comply when ordered by police then resisted being removed?
how's that?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
don't know the statute.

ok, so dao refused to comply when ordered by police then resisted being removed?
how's that?
He didn't resist. He was knocked out cold and dragged off.

And the reason that you don't know the statute is because there isn't one. No one is required to do what a police officer says just because he says so. The officer must have sufficient and reasonable cause in order to command a citizen. And that wasn't met here. Instead, the officer chose to follow UAL's instructions without determining if they were valid before acting. No doubt he's already been reprimanded for that. The fault still lies with UAL though.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
disobeying a police order.

and no, a concussion, broken nose, and two knocked out teeth is not the proper response to him disobeying.

Was not a police officer. The guy was a security guard wearing a police jacket.

He the same right to remove a passenger as any other person has. Only to protect others from harm. AKA "Citizen's Arrest".

I am surprised Chicago PD allows security guards to wear clothing marked "police". I don't know how police forces work. We have a Sheriffs dept. I do know if a deputy catches anyone wearing a "Sheriffs Deputy" jacket they are going to have a really bad day.

.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,300
126
And the reason that you don't know the statute is because there isn't one.
No one is required to do what a police officer says just because he says so.
The officer must have sufficient and reasonable cause in order to command a citizen. And that wasn't met here.
Instead, the officer chose to follow UAL's instructions without determining if they were valid before acting.
if United said they wanted Dao off solely because he was Asian and the cop followed United's request, then yeah I see a problem.

but united wanted dao off the plane to make room for another passenger. dao didn't want to leave.
why wouldn't a cop think this wasnt reasonable?
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,300
126
Was not a police officer. The guy was a security guard wearing a police jacket.

He the same right to remove a passenger as any other person has. Only to protect others from harm. AKA "Citizen's Arrest".

I am surprised Chicago PD allows security guards to wear clothing marked "police". I don't know how police forces work. We have a Sheriffs dept. I do know if a deputy catches anyone wearing a "Sheriffs Deputy" jacket they are going to have a really bad day.

.
wha?
thought Chicago aviation pol.. security were state-certified police officers?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
if United said they wanted Dao off solely because he was Asian and the cop followed United's request, then yeah I see a problem.

but united wanted dao off the plane to make room for another passenger. dao didn't want to leave.
why wouldn't a cop think this wasnt reasonable?

Because 'make room for another passenger' isn't a legitimate reason to forcibly remove a ticketed passenger who is sitting in the seat that he paid for?
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
wha?a
thought Chicago aviation pol.. security were state-certified police officers?

Hardly, they go to a training class that CPD also goes to.

Think about how hard it is for a police officer to get fired and how long it takes. This guy got "thrown under the bus" (almost) before the ambulance carrying Dao got to the hospital.:D

.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
Because 'make room for another passenger' isn't a legitimate reason to forcibly remove a ticketed passenger who is sitting in the seat that he paid for?

I agree with you. And so does United in the contract you enter with them when you buy the ticket. Witch has a whole list of reasons to remove a passenger. Making room for someone else is not one of them.

There is nothing in the contract that allows for United to even bump someone from boarding to make room for a employee.

They have been getting away with it only because no one read the contract or because no one was willing to call them on it.

.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Yeah, and that's the only point I was ever trying to make, and only because someone compared Dao's removal to rape. I never said it was a wise move on United's part. What they did was the exact opposite of good customer service, and they were punished for it by a drop in stock price and customer backlash. They settled quickly to get this out of the news and attempt to move on, after realizing they screwed the pooch on multiple levels.

What you folks are confusing is US law vs. good customer service. Nothing United did was actually illegal. Doctor Dao was trespassing once he refused to deplane. Businesses have the right to act stupid and treat customers like shit so long as they are not violating their civil rights. NOBODY has the right to remain on board or on the property of another person or business once they have been asked to leave, weather a paying customer or otherwise. If you refuse to leave reasonable force can be used to remove you. The only exceptions to these laws are those such as the protections afforded tenants in their home, when various legal processes must be followed before eviction.

I've only been making this ONE LITTLE POINT about US private property rights and trespass laws the whole time. I've never for a second supported what United did, and only made the point when someone compared the doc's removal to actual RAPE.

But feel free to misrepresent my comments if it makes you feel better. Reading comprehension for the MFL.

He wasn't technically raped but rather badly battered by the goons United called for. You don't have any right to beat the shit of someone even if they're on your property, no matter how conservative/degenerate you are.