More constitutional right violated with signing of wiretap bill

[enthusiast24]

Repost.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...080593&highlight_key=y


Basically, Congress just passed a bill that will allow authority to eavesdrop without warrants on the international telephone calls and email messages of American citizens.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI...ml?eref=rss_topstories
http://www.democracynow.org/ar...209&mode=thread&tid=25
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...terrorism_surveillance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...4/AR2007080401744.html
Is anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.
?Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security? -Benjamin Franklin



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[ProfJohn]

Reposted for at least the forth time.

Perhaps if the thread title was different than ?Freaking Dems need to grow a pair ? we wouldn?t have this problem.

 

[heartsurgeon]

s anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.

Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)


gotta love those wacky Dimocrats.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)


gotta love those wacky Dimocrats.

No, I have to disrespect them for caving, even if I "understand" their excuses, and even if it's for only six months.

What I also don't "gotta love" is a crowing juvenile delinquent trying to shift the blame for this catastrophy away from the criminal administration that's the source of the problem.

If you're such a hotshot heart surgeon, try cutting the heart out of something a little smaller than the entire U.S. Constitution. :roll:

 

[nick1985]

So a Democrat majority congress passed a bill...yet you blame Bush

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

s anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.

Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)


gotta love those wacky Dimocrats.

What I also don't "gotta love" is a crowing juvenile delinquent trying to shift the blame for this catastrophy away from the criminal administration that's the source of the problem.

Who are you referring to as the "crowing juvenile delinquent" ?

 

[Moonbeam]

Better Red than Dead as the Republicans always say, or is it, better safe than private. After all, what do us good Americans have to hide.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: nick1985
Who are you referring to as the "crowing juvenile delinquent" ?

Gosh oh gee wilickers... I don't know. Take your choice. Are you volunteering? :laugh:

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: nick1985
Who are you referring to as the "crowing juvenile delinquent" ?

Gosh oh gee wilickers... I don't know. Take your choice. Are you volunteering? :laugh:

Well I know for a fact that such an esteemed moderator such as yourself would not use personal attacks against other members, so I know you cant be referring to someone on these boards. :laugh:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)


gotta love those wacky Dimocrats.

No, I have to disrespect them for caving, even if I "understand" their excuses, and even if it's for only six months.

What I also don't "gotta love" is a crowing juvenile delinquent trying to shift the blame for this catastrophy away from the criminal administration that's the source of the problem.

If you're such a hotshot heart surgeon, try cutting the heart out of something a little smaller than the entire U.S. Constitution. :roll:

Ever heard of the Blue Dogs? You may wish to go back and see who voted for the bill. Without bonafied Dem support, the bill would have crashed and burned regardless of Bush's desires.

I believe 41 Blue Dog Dems voted for it... DOH! that's gotta suck!

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: enthusiast24
Basically, Congress just passed a bill that will allow authority to eavesdrop without warrants on the international telephone calls and email messages of American citizens.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI...ml?eref=rss_topstories
http://www.democracynow.org/ar...209&mode=thread&tid=25
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...terrorism_surveillance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...4/AR2007080401744.html
Is anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.
?Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security? -Benjamin Franklin



----------------------------------------
Check out my website!
Cool Canvas Pop Art
Prices starting at just $24.99

Uh, this doesnt cover american citizens phone calls... Read the damn legislation...

This bill covers foreign international calls/internet activity that are routed through American telephone/data lines.

Not to mention this is just a stop gap measure, because FISA needs reauthorized. It was set to expire this year.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

s anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.

Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)


gotta love those wacky Dimocrats.

Authoritarians the whole lot of them. And we love them for it, apparently.

 

[heyheybooboo]

General Hayden's 4th Amendment

 

[heyheybooboo]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Since when did we start applying the Constitution to the actions of non-US persons outside of our borders?

It's silly to think that our survillance must end the instant that foreign communications touch our network equipment. Dont you think, just for a second, that our enemies could use that against us?

New Al Qaeda SOP: make sure all emails and calls are routed or proxied through a U.S. server, and we're golden! WOOHOO! ALLA AHKBAR!

duh.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Since when did we start applying the Constitution to the actions of non-US persons outside of our borders?

It's silly to think that our survillance must end the instant that foreign communications touch our network equipment. Dont you think, just for a second, that our enemies could use that against us?

New Al Qaeda SOP: make sure all emails and calls are routed or proxied through a U.S. server, and we're golden! WOOHOO! ALLA AHKBAR!

duh.

As I understand it, if the call originates out of the US but is inbound to a US location then they can monitor it, but if it comes from the US going to a foreign location they can't monitor it?

If that's true then anybody in the US with anything to hide would just place the call themselves, wouldn't they?

 

[heyheybooboo]

FBI admits to wiretapping wrong numbers

FBI turns to broad new wiretap method

Gonzales Was Told of FBI Violations
After Bureau Sent Reports, Attorney General Said He Knew of No Wrongdoing

Memo Reveals FBI Wiretap Violations
recently disclosed FBI memo reveals that agents illegally videotaped suspects, intercepted e-mails without court permission, recorded the wrong phone conversations, and allowed electronic surveillance operations to run beyond their legal deadline, during sensitive terrorism investigations.

FISA Court Chastises DOJ, FBI
The Court said that DOJ substituted relaxed foreign intelligence gathering wiretapping procedures to evade higher requirements for standard criminal investigations

True to its History, the F.B.I. is Still Violating Civil Liberties
the Federal Bureau of Investigation violated procedures for wiretapping and other methods of obtaining intelligence more than 100 times in the last two years

An internal audit has discovered that the FBI overstepped the mark in intercepting communication records at least 1,000 times since 2002
The figures - based on an analysis of 10 per cent of the bureau's national security investigations over the last five years - are far higher than estimates of 22 wiretap "mistakes" in a Justice Department study released as recently as March.

Home Searched In Probe of Wiretap Leak
FBI agents searched the home of a former Justice Department lawyer last week in an effort to determine who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media,


How many more do yah need, PaleHorse?

I personally wonder how you may claim to be a patriot and love America but continue to defend the NeanderCons who consistently violate the Constitution.

Gov't should be of laws rather than of men, right?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
FBI admits to wiretapping wrong numbers

FBI turns to broad new wiretap method

Gonzales Was Told of FBI Violations
After Bureau Sent Reports, Attorney General Said He Knew of No Wrongdoing

Memo Reveals FBI Wiretap Violations
recently disclosed FBI memo reveals that agents illegally videotaped suspects, intercepted e-mails without court permission, recorded the wrong phone conversations, and allowed electronic surveillance operations to run beyond their legal deadline, during sensitive terrorism investigations.

FISA Court Chastises DOJ, FBI
The Court said that DOJ substituted relaxed foreign intelligence gathering wiretapping procedures to evade higher requirements for standard criminal investigations

True to its History, the F.B.I. is Still Violating Civil Liberties
the Federal Bureau of Investigation violated procedures for wiretapping and other methods of obtaining intelligence more than 100 times in the last two years

An internal audit has discovered that the FBI overstepped the mark in intercepting communication records at least 1,000 times since 2002
The figures - based on an analysis of 10 per cent of the bureau's national security investigations over the last five years - are far higher than estimates of 22 wiretap "mistakes" in a Justice Department study released as recently as March.

Home Searched In Probe of Wiretap Leak
FBI agents searched the home of a former Justice Department lawyer last week in an effort to determine who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media,


How many more do yah need, PaleHorse?

I personally wonder how you may claim to be a patriot and love America but continue to defend the NeanderCons who consistently violate the Constitution.

Gov't should be of laws rather than of men, right?

Mistakes, abuses, and gross negligence are the very reason that FISA needed to be revised for the 21st century.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

-snip-

I think that you're maybe bundleing two seperate issues into one.

1) Is the Bill a good bill, a Constitutional bill?, and

2) Are our government agencies doing a job enforcing the bill and complying with proper parameters?

If the government agencies (e.g., FBI) are running amok, no amount amount of legislation is going to help. The problem to begin with is that they are purposely NOT following legislation. Oversight is the answer. The stuff you're linking above is an example of oversight. Apparently oversight is in place and working because they are finding problems.

To date, all the problems I've seen reported appear to be bureaucratic in nature, as opposed to willful violation of law. If they are willful, they should be prosecuted. If they are bureaucratic, measures should be put in place and training conducted to reduce mistakes (I don't say *eliminated* because zero errors are impossible to achieve).

If sufficient measures and traing are not happening, and numerous errors persist, management should be replaced because it's ineffective.

As to the Constitutionality of the wiretapping foreign-to-foreign calls, the SCOTUS ruled in 1999 (the court under Clinton) that foreigners have no 4th Amendment rights, none, even if they are in the USA visiting. I have posted links to the case twice on the forum already. I believe one link is earlier in this thread. Edit:The link is in the otehr thread on this topic

Fern

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

s anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.

Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)

Rather than just mouthing propaganda, maybe you should investigate before you spout. In fact, the White House wrote the bill. From the Washington Post:

Linky

The Democratic-controlled House last night approved legislation President Bush's intelligence advisers wrote to enhance their ability to intercept the electronic communications of foreigners without a court order.

The bill was sponsored by the Republicans, and the only substantive change the Democrats were able to get through in the rush before the August recess was the six-month sunset.

As to "they passed it," only 41 of the 227 votes for were Dems.

Don't get me wrong: I think the Democrats were spineless cowards for caving on this bill and not enforcing party discipline. They should have begun the propaganda war on this weeks ago: Create a GOOD wiretap bill (for example, increase the staffing on the FISA court to eliminate delays while leaving in place the needed oversight), then DARE the President to veto it. If he did, the albatross for the next domestic attack would have been around HIS neck.

I just pray the Dems can find some spine six months from now.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

s anybody else outraged about this? And people continue to suggest that Bush isn't continually destroying the Constitution.

Bush didn't write the Bill....the Dimocrats in Congress wrote the Bill...
AND THEY PASSED IT

The Dimocrats gave birth to this new and expanded bill (allowing Gonzales greater leeway in spying on you!!)

Rather than just mouthing propaganda, maybe you should investigate before you spout. In fact, the White House wrote the bill. From the Washington Post:

Linky

The Democratic-controlled House last night approved legislation President Bush's intelligence advisers wrote to enhance their ability to intercept the electronic communications of foreigners without a court order.

The bill was sponsored by the Republicans, and the only substantive change the Democrats were able to get through in the rush before the August recess was the six-month sunset.

As to "they passed it," only 41 of the 227 votes for were Dems.

Don't get me wrong: I think the Democrats were spineless cowards for caving on this bill and not enforcing party discipline. They should have begun the propaganda war on this weeks ago: Create a GOOD wiretap bill (for example, increase the staffing on the FISA court to eliminate delays while leaving in place the needed oversight), then DARE the President to veto it. If he did, the albatross for the next domestic attack would have been around HIS neck.

I just pray the Dems can find some spine six months from now.

I think the same 41 Blue dog Dems will be the downfall for all your hopes in dreams when the Progress Report is given to Congress in September. It's nice to know that at least 41 Democrats have resisted the Defeatist Virus plaguing our great nation!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I think the same 41 Blue dog Dems will be the downfall for all your hopes in dreams when the Progress Report is given to Congress in September. It's nice to know that at least 41 Democrats have resisted the Defeatist Virus plaguing our great nation!

Are you trying to say that opposing bills to restrict our civil liberties is defeatist? I for one would be very interested to hear your logic on this one.

Good to see you're letting the crazy peek out a little bit more these days though.