More bad news for the Religion Haters

Moonbeam

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Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World by Karen Wright

"A given religion adapts its members to their local environment, enabling them to achieve by collective action what they cannot achieve alone or even together in the absence of religion,? Wilson writes. ?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones. From an evolutionary perspective, it does not matter what you believe in, as long as that belief works to give you a selective advantage.

Harnessed to a supernatural dimension, the belief in evolution could itself evolve into a kind of religion. Witness the case of one Michael Dowd, an itinerant minister who calls himself an ?evolutionary evangelist? and preaches the ?holy trajectory? of evolution. ?I thank God for the entire 14-billion-year epic of cosmic, biological, and human emergence,? he notes on his Web site. ?Ironically, evolution gives us a more intimate and personal relationship with God because God is no longer far off, unnatural, and impotent. And it gives us a way of thinking about religion that helps us understand how and why religions are different, and how we can cooperate across ethnic and religious differences to cocreate a thriving world together. Both of these are, to my mind, really Good News.?

In imbuing science with a sense of personal meaning, Dowd resembles Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, the Jesuit priest and paleontologist who envisioned humankind and the universe evolving in the direction of a divine, infinitely complex consciousness he called the Omega Point. But the two remain an extremely rare breed: devout believers in science whose teleological claims flout the rigors of scientific verification. Unlike Dowd and Teilhard de Chardin, Wilson espouses a strictly secular enthusiasm. However much they may disagree about the ends, though, these very different Darwinian thinkers agree on the means.

?Organisms evolve, and at the end of the day, we are organisms,? Wilson says. ?You just can?t deny that.?
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Interesting, isn't it, that the one thing the Right really has right is the survival value of religion. No wonder they are going crazy with the secular and and perhaps increasingly anti-religious left. The left is out to make us less fit to survive. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
 

cubeless

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Sep 17, 2001
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but if they don't know the reason they do it does that make it invalid as a political system?

it's nice that religion gets a pat on the head from science every now and then...
 

Fenixgoon

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Jun 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: irishScott
I have no problem with religion, I have huge issues with "stupid".

</thread>

usually it's just the hardcore religious people who are the crazies. 99.999% of religious people are perfectly normal.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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I don't see how this is bad news for religion haters. There are plenty of evolutionary mechanisms about us that we don't like and try to change. A tendancy to believe in falsehoods is one of them.
 

Moonbeam

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Originally posted by: cubeless
but if they don't know the reason they do it does that make it invalid as a political system?

it's nice that religion gets a pat on the head from science every now and then...

If you are smart enough to crack a bone to get the marrow, does it matter if you know you're smart?
 

Atreus21

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Aug 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

?Ironically, evolution gives us a more intimate and personal relationship with God because God is no longer far off, unnatural, and impotent. And it gives us a way of thinking about religion that helps us understand how and why religions are different, and how we can cooperate across ethnic and religious differences to cocreate a thriving world together. Both of these are, to my mind, really Good News.?

I've always thought this as well. I don't understand some Christian's animosity towards evolution theory. For me, and I believe for thinking individuals, evolution brings God into greater focus. We have uncovered a small piece of his mechanism for the universe, and it's no surprise that it's so minutely detailed and intricate.
 

PJABBER

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The DISCOVER article that Moonbeam is quoting is worth reading in the entirety as it is a nice celebration of Darwin' contribution to thought in many arenas.

We All Live in Darwin's World

We All Live in Darwin's World

?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

by Karen Wright

From the March 2009 issue of DISCOVER, published online February 11, 2009
 

miketheidiot

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Sep 3, 2004
11,062
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
Originally posted by: irishScott
I have no problem with religion, I have huge issues with "stupid".

</thread>

usually it's just the hardcore religious people who are the crazies. 99.999% of religious people are perfectly normal.

i would say about 80%, but w/e :p
 

Moonbeam

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Originally posted by: eskimospy
I don't see how this is bad news for religion haters. There are plenty of evolutionary mechanisms about us that we don't like and try to change. A tendancy to believe in falsehoods is one of them.

It is not one of them obviously as the belief in what to you is a falsehood is protective. That means the belief is not in a falsehood but in a truth, that if I believe such and such I will be better off. The real question is what makes you perverse, no? Why do you reject the great advantage belief in falsehoods offers. Why not join those who protect the evolution of the species instead of weaken it? Self hate, maybe? Personal advantage at the expense of others?
 

miketheidiot

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Sep 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

why?
 

Moonbeam

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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

?Ironically, evolution gives us a more intimate and personal relationship with God because God is no longer far off, unnatural, and impotent. And it gives us a way of thinking about religion that helps us understand how and why religions are different, and how we can cooperate across ethnic and religious differences to cocreate a thriving world together. Both of these are, to my mind, really Good News.?

I've always thought this as well. I don't understand some Christian's animosity towards evolution theory. For me, and I believe for thinking individuals, evolution brings God into greater focus. We have uncovered a small piece of his mechanism for the universe, and it's no surprise that it's so minutely detailed and intricate.

We went over that ridiculous idea in another thread just recently. Why keep bringing up again what we already have established is false.
 

Sclamoz

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Just because it works doesn't mean it works well. It seems to me that governments are modern (evolved I guess you could say) forms of religions.
 

Atreus21

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Aug 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

why?

I would say simply because all will have been for nothing.

In the end, any good we strive to attain during our lifetime, and indeed during the entire time of humanity's presence, and any other sentient life in existence, will have been nothing but "a senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter," to quote CS Lewis.

There simply is no hope, and no reason.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

?Ironically, evolution gives us a more intimate and personal relationship with God because God is no longer far off, unnatural, and impotent. And it gives us a way of thinking about religion that helps us understand how and why religions are different, and how we can cooperate across ethnic and religious differences to cocreate a thriving world together. Both of these are, to my mind, really Good News.?

I've always thought this as well. I don't understand some Christian's animosity towards evolution theory. For me, and I believe for thinking individuals, evolution brings God into greater focus. We have uncovered a small piece of his mechanism for the universe, and it's no surprise that it's so minutely detailed and intricate.

We went over that ridiculous idea in another thread just recently. Why keep bringing up again what we already have established is false.

What was established as false?
 

Moonbeam

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Originally posted by: Atreus21


What was established as false?

An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

We can say it is less group enforcing, we can say it is depressing to some, we can say the article posits the same idea, but we can't say it is true because atheists are no more depressed according to their testimony than anybody else. And of course, many have a highly developed sense of morality.
 

Atreus21

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Aug 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Atreus21


What was established as false?

An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

We can say it is less group enforcing, we can say it is depressing to some, we can say the article posits the same idea, but we can't say it is true because atheists are no more depressed according to their testimony than anybody else. And of course, many have a highly developed sense of morality.

Then to me, that simply implies that there are no true atheists. :)

Or at least none still alive, or none who aren't on serious anti-depressants.
 

OCGuy

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Jul 12, 2000
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The only bad news for "religion-haters" is that there are still nutjobs out there who believe in it and kill for it.
 

Sclamoz

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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

why?

I would say simply because all will have been for nothing.

In the end, any good we strive to attain during our lifetime, and indeed during the entire time of humanity's presence, and any other sentient life in existence, will have been nothing but "a senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter," to quote CS Lewis.

There simply is no hope, and no reason.

Your life is what you make of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally I think the advancement of our own species is what our goal in life should be, but that's just me.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Ausm
I think religion is a legal form of brainwashing.

And you think seeking the protection of the Alpha Male Obama isn't?

I think the issue isn't truth as true or false but truth as what is functional for human evolution, positive or negative and the degree. What got us here.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: Sclamoz
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

why?

I would say simply because all will have been for nothing.

In the end, any good we strive to attain during our lifetime, and indeed during the entire time of humanity's presence, and any other sentient life in existence, will have been nothing but "a senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter," to quote CS Lewis.

There simply is no hope, and no reason.

Your life is what you make of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally I think the advancement of our own species is what our goal in life should be, but that's just me.

But the species is doomed. Humanity and all other life will inevitably be reduced to nothing.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
?The primary benefits of religion take place in this world, not the next.? The religious emphasis on otherworldly beliefs evolved, Wilson says, because supernatural explanations seem to motivate human cooperation better than factual ones.

This is no surprise. An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

why?

I would say simply because all will have been for nothing.

In the end, any good we strive to attain during our lifetime, and indeed during the entire time of humanity's presence, and any other sentient life in existence, will have been nothing but "a senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter," to quote CS Lewis.

There simply is no hope, and no reason.

That's interesting, but I guess you just can't understand the world the way an atheist sees it. (no slam against you, I don't think I can understand the world the way a theist does, but I would never presume to say your life had no meaning.) CS Lewis never quite figured it out either. Something doesn't have to be permanent to have meaning, and the idea that I am in charge of my own existence is the most deeply fulfilling idea I have ever experienced.

Call it cheesy, but I think 'Goundhog Day' is a perfect example. At the end, Bill Murray says something to the effect of 'I don't care what happens tomorrow, I don't care if everything I do doesn't matter, I'm happy now.' It's not a mindless descent into hedonism like the first half of the movie, it's a deep personal achievement... and I honestly believe it is all the more powerful because he didn't need a god to give him meaning, he found his own.
 

Moonbeam

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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Atreus21


What was established as false?

An atheist's explanation of existence must be depressing indeed.

We can say it is less group enforcing, we can say it is depressing to some, we can say the article posits the same idea, but we can't say it is true because atheists are no more depressed according to their testimony than anybody else. And of course, many have a highly developed sense of morality.

Then to me, that simply implies that there are no true atheists. :)

Or at least none still alive, or none who aren't on serious anti-depressants.

As I said, this was all hashed out recently in an other thread. Go wake it up if you want to argue that. Hehe, why do I think you won't.