More bad news for the auto industry

[piasabird]

Toyota is just another automobile manufacturer.

Who Cares?

 

[The-Noid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
The Nissan-Renault and Porsche-VW-Audi alliances are in stronger fundamental shape than that of Toyota. You are thinking far too linearly as if there is no company outside the USA.

Nissan-Renault; Japanese quality with ability to sell Semis and other business vehicles Renault in mainland Europe. Also have a strong intra country appeal in France to Renault.

Audi-VW-Porsche; cars for many segments with a still perceived quality advantage in Europe compared to that of the Japanese transplants. Also cheaper manufacturing costs than that of Toyota on the low-end (VW) and a dealer network throughout the USA that is not over saturated.

There are also many companies bigger than TM by market cap that do not deserve a AAA rating. Stock price should not go into fundamental credit analysis, as stock price simply reflects the firms ability to raise capital and lower their WACC should they choose to issue a secondary of equity or preferred as opposed to debt. If you are taking equity into account, look at Toyota dropping by 50% this year.

The leaders in sales figure is also debatable. GM actually has a much larger footprint in the developing world than TM. TM has seen the majority of its gains from GM's losses in the USA. Outside of the USA GM actually makes money, without the USA as is seen by TM estimates today and listening to the analyst call, TM can not make money.

TM will get a downgrade and is the most overrated company on the planet. The downgrade will come in the next 90 days. You can come back to this post in 90 days and I will fully admit I am wrong should it come to that, I would aspect the same out of you as well.

Also, when you debate you can not give blanket statements like Toyota is the #1 car company in the world. This is according to what? Quality, sales, ...
For me Ferrari, Rolls Royce or Aston Martin are the #1 car company in the world. A statement like that is completely subjective.

It's hard to take you serious when you say that it's "debatable" when it comes to sales. No, it's absolutely not debatable, and this is old news from April. GM says Toyota is number 1 in global sales.

Furthermore, ranking Nissan ahead of Toyota is far fetched, especially regarding global sales and quality. Again, read JD&Power (since you quoted it) for 2008 reliability rankings. Read Consumer reports for rankings, Toyota again comes out ahead. VW, are you kidding? They got some of the worst dependability rankings of 2008. Porshe, Lexus destroyed them on dependability ratings as well , although Porshe edged them out on overall quality/performance-design.

Last, like another person posted, calling Toyota the most "overrated" company on the planet means you don't think rationally, especially when you have a biased (i.e. money at stake) opinion. Of course you're going to fight tooth and nail and make false statements (like global sales/VW is better) to try and trick people into dumping Toyota because you admitted to shorting it.

Again, you need to read between the line. Toyota's global sales have problems. US sales are horrible for everyone. No automaker is in good shape right now regardless of what their market is. My point is that somehow people think TM makes it through this with no problems. TM will have their credit rating cut and their stock price will suffer. Their WACC is definitely going up and they have already cut plans to expand. Stock prices rely on earnings growth, which this company does not have in the foreseeable future. The target for GM should be 0, TM maybe 30. I only cover Nissan/Renault indirectly so, I don't have any kind of target for them.

Internationally TM needs a new philosophy outside of the USA which does not rely on the Japanese government subsidizing $2,000 per car. Overall, this is a good company in the USA when credit is expanding in epic proportions, but the industry and environment they are currently in puts them in as bad a shape as anyone else.

I covered all my shares at the close today, so I am not longer short. TM however is still incredibly overrated. I was thinking on my drive home about companies that could be more overrated and I had forgotten about AMAT. It is a bit sensationalist to say that TM is the most overrated company of all-time, when a company like AMAT has really done nothing but spout off great product ideas for the last 10 years and there stock price is basically the same place it was then. TM has innovated, but the business they are in is just too terribly capital and labor intensive.

Also, TOKYO, Nov 26 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) had its top-notch credit ratings cut for the first time in a decade, hitting its shares and raising borrowing costs as an unprecedented slowdown reshapes the global auto industry.

Fitch Ratings on Wednesday downgraded Toyota's long-term foreign and local debt ratings to AA from AAA, with a negative outlook, saying the company needed to review its global investments, product mix and speed of expansion to address the challenges it faces. [ID:nWNA0387]

"The negative developments in the industry are so substantial and fundamental that even the strongest player -- Toyota -- can no longer support an 'AAA' rating," said Fitch Director Tatsuya Mizuno.

It is only S & P that has not cut or initiated a negative outlook, you are behind the curve. I thought I would show you this just so you don't keep making a fool out of yourself. S & P will be the last to cut but it will happen in the next 90 days. Toyota has an outside chance of being Triple-B this time next year. You also can't really count Fitch because as soon as TM got their ratings cut by Fitch they just didn't have any of their Toyota Motor Credit Corp bonds rated by them. Fortunately Moody's still has coverage and TM can't get around that outlook.

I will run a linear regression after I workout showing consumer sentiment and monthly auto sales over the last 10 years and another of consumer debt to auto sales. The numbers should show you that no one in this industry is without challenge.

 

[The-Noid]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

TPS was usurped by TPM, LM, QRM, TOC, Six Sigma, RCM and numerous other OM and Internal Control strategies. Welcome to 1975.

Those approaches and processes did not usurp the TPS...they are either extensions of TPS, modifications to the TPS or improvements to the TPS.

American auto manufacturing has been playing catch-up with the Japanese since 1975...the latest buzzword is Lean, but it all boils down to the same thing...removal of waste from the system, focus on quality, JIT manufacturing, etc.

Are you sure you understand what usurp means? Improvement or extensions make them new processes, i.e. taking the place of...

 

[trenchfoot]

No matter what, it's all the UAW's fault......or so some on this forum would like to make me believe.....somehow.:disgust: Well, that's all I been hearing from them lately.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

No, the fact that the common American and the media worship them as if their corporate structure and governance is some how superior to all other companies on the planet.

It is superior...go read up on the Toyota Production System.

Ford invented the assembly line nearly 100 years ago. That was superior, all Toyota has done is refine.

Doing some light research they took ideas from Ford and Piggy Wiggy and combined them, not exactly corporate learder material.

I agree with Yoxxy. They are young to this market in terms of trying to corner the market and become the sales leader. They have also made agressive moves like SUVs/trucks that are not going to work out for them.

They copied American vehicles, every step of the way.

SUVs- timing was bad, gas prices kill demand.
Trucks- cant compete in the work place, not tough enough.
Prius- novelty fueled by a tax credit, high fuel cost, wont last.
New plants here, happy workers....that wears off.
Job banks, yep, they have them.
Despite the hidden programs, buy backs, recalls, owners won't be fooled for long.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: boomerang
For those of you having difficulty dealing with the toppling of Toyota, I present the five stages of grief.

1. Denial and Isolation.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance.

Most of you appear to be in stage one. Experts say that the overwhelming majority of people will go through all five of these steps. Some will remain in any one specific step longer than others.

Just know that you are not alone.

snicker, snicker, snicker



btw - during the bailout hearings, I believe it was Mulally, that gave projected forecasts for the next three years of auto sales. For 2009 it was like Eleven point something million and grew to Thirteen million by 2011. I don't think anybody is expecting 17 million for a while if ever.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Are you sure you understand what usurp means? Improvement or extensions make them new processes, i.e. taking the place of...

You may want to look up the meaning of usurp...the common definition suggests a forceful removal or transition of power, or to assume control without authority.

Ford invented the assembly line nearly 100 years ago. That was superior, all Toyota has done is refine.

Ford introduced a revolution in manufacturing with the assembly line...Toyota perfected it for the global age.

Doing some light research they took ideas from Ford and Piggy Wiggy and combined them, not exactly corporate learder material.

That America dismisses the innovations introduced by the Japanese is why we are in a perpetual state of catch-up.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Ford invented the assembly line nearly 100 years ago. That was superior, all Toyota has done is refine.

Doing some light research they took ideas from Ford and Piggy Wiggy and combined them, not exactly corporate learder material.

I agree with Yoxxy. They are young to this market in terms of trying to corner the market and become the sales leader. They have also made agressive moves like SUVs/trucks that are not going to work out for them.

They copied American vehicles, every step of the way.

Right, because 80s Toyotas got to be much more reliable than American cars by copying their failed designs.

Obviously Toyota doesn't walk on water and you'd be stupid to think that they do. But they're a solid company, and certainly not the most overrated "of all time".

And JIT production WAS and IS a superior production method if you can pull it off, and one which was not copied from the Big 3.

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
TM is overrated, they could kill kittens with rust knives on Christmas via national TV and people would still think TM was the greatest company ever.

If that were at all true, you would be correct. But it is not. Maybe your stupid investor friends think that Toyota is the greatest company ever, sort of like subprime mortgages were a sure way to make lots of money...but that stupidity rests on their heads, not Toyota's.

Overrated I can buy. "Most overrated EVAR!!@!"...is a wild exaggeration.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: jagec
Right, because 80s Toyotas got to be much more reliable than American cars by copying their failed designs.

I think you need to read "The Toyota Way".

They got to be better by taking, copying, reverse engineering American innovations. That is the Kaizen process.

Now that the severe cost cutting is going on the corners are being cut in quality and process. There is no Kaizen going on. That's the point.

If you look at the entire Toyota Way there is no innovation, only copying. If you've ever worked with Japenese engineers it is a cultural and way of doing business. Why innovate when you can steal?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: bctbct
Ford invented the assembly line nearly 100 years ago. That was superior, all Toyota has done is refine.

Doing some light research they took ideas from Ford and Piggy Wiggy and combined them, not exactly corporate learder material.

I agree with Yoxxy. They are young to this market in terms of trying to corner the market and become the sales leader. They have also made agressive moves like SUVs/trucks that are not going to work out for them.

They copied American vehicles, every step of the way.

Right, because 80s Toyotas got to be much more reliable than American cars by copying their failed designs.

Obviously Toyota doesn't walk on water and you'd be stupid to think that they do. But they're a solid company, and certainly not the most overrated "of all time".

And JIT production WAS and IS a superior production method if you can pull it off, and one which was not copied from the Big 3.

Im not talking the 80's, I talking about 2008,Toyota shifted half their production to trucks/SUVs in the last 5 years....they have spent so much time chasing the big 3 money makers they neglected the backbone of their company.

They dont even lead in fuel economy anymore. Quality is now on par with the Ford. They took their eyes off the road when they started being like the Big 3.

 

[The-Noid]

Originally posted by: jagec
If that were at all true, you would be correct. But it is not. Maybe your stupid investor friends think that Toyota is the greatest company ever, sort of like subprime mortgages were a sure way to make lots of money...but that stupidity rests on their heads, not Toyota's.

Overrated I can buy. "Most overrated EVAR!!@!"...is a wild exaggeration.

Investing is the lifeblood of America, you don't really believe that the American worker makes this country go around, do you?

 

[Paddington]

Toyota did a lot of things right like streamlining the manufacturing process, continual improvement, and achieving high marks for quality. But ultimately they too invested too heavily in SUV's/trucks/etc. and now have plants sitting in idle. OTOH, sales for their Prius have also taken a beating as gas prices have fallen. Also, many of Toyota's production advances have been copied by their competitors. Reliability nowadays isn't as big of an issue as I remember it being when I was a kid in the 1990's. Toyota's may be more reliable than their competition but the gap has narrowed a lot and isn't as critical as it used to be.

The last thing that Toyota gets hit for is that a lot of their products are either bland or downright ugly. I haven't seen much improvement in this department to be honest with you. Despite their quality and reliability there isn't anything from Toyota's stable that I would want to drive myself.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Yoxxy

Originally posted by: jagec
If that were at all true, you would be correct. But it is not. Maybe your stupid investor friends think that Toyota is the greatest company ever, sort of like subprime mortgages were a sure way to make lots of money...but that stupidity rests on their heads, not Toyota's.

Overrated I can buy. "Most overrated EVAR!!@!"...is a wild exaggeration.

Investing is the lifeblood of America, you don't really believe that the American worker makes this country go around, do you?

Given the past few months, neither do the investors.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Toyota did a lot of things right like streamlining the manufacturing process, continual improvement, and achieving high marks for quality. But ultimately they too invested too heavily in SUV's/trucks/etc. and now have plants sitting in idle. OTOH, sales for their Prius have also taken a beating as gas prices have fallen. Also, many of Toyota's production advances have been copied by their competitors. Reliability nowadays isn't as big of an issue as I remember it being when I was a kid in the 1990's. Toyota's may be more reliable than their competition but the gap has narrowed a lot and isn't as critical as it used to be.

The last thing that Toyota gets hit for is that a lot of their products are either bland or downright ugly. I haven't seen much improvement in this department to be honest with you. Despite their quality and reliability there isn't anything from Toyota's stable that I would want to drive myself.

Look at Toyota's capital investment in north america.

TX plant - to build tundra
AL motor plant - to build big motor
MS plant - to build SUV

Guess copying isn't such a good idea.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: marincounty
OMG the sky is falling. Toyota lost money. Of course they lost money, no one (in their right mind) is buying cars right now.
Last time I checked , Toyota had something like $17 billion in cash, so I think they can make it. Maybe they will be bought by Ford?
Perhaps Detroit should have banked some of the money they made selling the useless SUVs instead of giving it out in bonuses and giving it to the sharelholders?

Toyota still makes the most reliable cars and when people do buy cars they will buy Toyotas again.

I have posted this in another thread

Here are 2006 sales figures by manufacturers
From NADA website

Chrysler 2,142,500
Ford 3,629,959
GM 4,681,782
Toyota 1,733,818
Honda 1,200,118

Also from the US Dept of Transportation website:

Sales in 2006
Retail New Passenger Car Sales
Domestics 5,436 (in thousands)
Imports 2,345 (in thousands)

If Japanese had a huge edge when it comes to understanding their customers why do domestic manufacturers outsell them by over 2:1 in the US?


As to quality Toyota comes below Mercury and Buick. How do you say Toyota makes the most reliable cars?

 

[SP33Demon]

above link

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: marincounty
OMG the sky is falling. Toyota lost money. Of course they lost money, no one (in their right mind) is buying cars right now.
Last time I checked , Toyota had something like $17 billion in cash, so I think they can make it. Maybe they will be bought by Ford?
Perhaps Detroit should have banked some of the money they made selling the useless SUVs instead of giving it out in bonuses and giving it to the sharelholders?

Toyota still makes the most reliable cars and when people do buy cars they will buy Toyotas again.

As to quality Toyota comes below Mercury and Buick. How do you say Toyota makes the most reliable cars?

Uh, Lexus beat all other cars from your link and Toyota is on par with Mercury/Buick. WTH are you talking about? /snicker.learn2read.

Also, your link for sales is outdated. You must have missed my above link from April 2008 that says Toyota is the number one car company in sales globally.

We can definitely agree that Toyota will take a hit b/c of the recession and illiquid credit, but if you think they're going to relinquish the number one spot without a fight you're delusional. Tundra won Motor Trend Truck of the Year again for 2008, even though they're not selling they're still producing quality. In addition, I would buy a Tacoma over any Big 3 compact truck (although I do like the F-150). The only compact truck rivaling Tacoma is the Nissan Frontier, yep another Japanese one.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Toyota did a lot of things right like streamlining the manufacturing process, continual improvement, and achieving high marks for quality. But ultimately they too invested too heavily in SUV's/trucks/etc. and now have plants sitting in idle. OTOH, sales for their Prius have also taken a beating as gas prices have fallen. Also, many of Toyota's production advances have been copied by their competitors. Reliability nowadays isn't as big of an issue as I remember it being when I was a kid in the 1990's. Toyota's may be more reliable than their competition but the gap has narrowed a lot and isn't as critical as it used to be.

The last thing that Toyota gets hit for is that a lot of their products are either bland or downright ugly. I haven't seen much improvement in this department to be honest with you. Despite their quality and reliability there isn't anything from Toyota's stable that I would want to drive myself.

Here's the primary thing that Toyota and the Japanese manufacturers did right. They listened to this man when American manufacturers turned him away. The following is a copy and paste from here. I did not explore the site further. I only copied this from it.

Dr. W. Edwards Deming

Dr. Deming's Ideas Dr. Deming's famous 14 Points, originally presented in Out of the Crisis, serve as management guidelines. The points cultivate a fertile soil in which a more efficient workplace, higher profits, and increased productivity may grow.

? Create and communicate to all employees a statement of the aims and purposes of the company.
? Adapt to the new philosophy of the day; industries and economics are always changing.
? Build quality into a product throughout production.
? End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag alone; instead, try a long-term relationship based on established loyalty and trust.
? Work to constantly improve quality and productivity.
? Institute on-the-job training.
? Teach and institute leadership to improve all job functions.
? Drive out fear; create trust.
? Strive to reduce intradepartmental conflicts.
? Eliminate exhortations for the work force; instead, focus on the system and morale.
? (a) Eliminate work standard quotas for production. Substitute leadership methods for improvement.
(b) Eliminate MBO. Avoid numerical goals. Alternatively, learn the capabilities of processes, and how to improve them.
? Remove barriers that rob people of pride of workmanship
? Educate with self-improvement programs.
? Include everyone in the company to accomplish the transformation.

A decade or so into the imports rise to success, the domestics started getting worried. They decided that perhaps ol' Dr. Deming had hit on something. They decided to get on board. Of course their egos got in the way and they 'modified' his 14 steps. They actually eliminated several of them and re-worded nearly all the rest. These were then rolled out to the workforce with zero support by management and no follow up whatsoever. Then upper management scratched their heads in wonderment for several years wondering why it wasn't working. Finally, a regime change got the ball rolling.

Dr. Deming had a lot to offer. His principles clearly showed that 'quality was free'. It was free because although it appeared to have a higher price tag initially, the costs were not what they appeared to be because of the decreases in rework, the increases in production, the reduced warranty costs, etc., etc. But management liked numbers. Big numbers. It didn't matter to them if 35% of what was produced was shit and needed to be repaired or thrown away. It took them a long time to get on board.

I know these things because I was there. I experienced them firsthand. We, as skilled tradesmen applauded the principles of Dr. Deming. As a tradesperson, there is nothing more discouraging than to go home at the end of the day, knowing you did a half-assed job because your superiors demanded that you do so. You also knew that you were then going to get the blame for the shoddy workmanship when your boss told his boss that you, the tradesman, couldn't cut the mustard just to cover his own ass.

We knew that if we were given good designs, sound engineering, the time, materials and the equipment to do the job right that the results would be robust and long-lasting. Those days finally came, but it remains to be seen if it was too little too late.

The Japanese auto industry embraced the ideals and principles put forth by Dr. Deming in their entirety as they were presented, and did a fine job of kicking our butts.

The tide has turned. But it may be too late.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Paddington
Toyota did a lot of things right like streamlining the manufacturing process, continual improvement, and achieving high marks for quality. But ultimately they too invested too heavily in SUV's/trucks/etc. and now have plants sitting in idle. OTOH, sales for their Prius have also taken a beating as gas prices have fallen. Also, many of Toyota's production advances have been copied by their competitors. Reliability nowadays isn't as big of an issue as I remember it being when I was a kid in the 1990's. Toyota's may be more reliable than their competition but the gap has narrowed a lot and isn't as critical as it used to be.

The last thing that Toyota gets hit for is that a lot of their products are either bland or downright ugly. I haven't seen much improvement in this department to be honest with you. Despite their quality and reliability there isn't anything from Toyota's stable that I would want to drive myself.

Here's the primary thing that Toyota and the Japanese manufacturers did right. They listened to this man when American manufacturers turned him away. The following is a copy and paste from here. I did not explore the site further. I only copied this from it.

Dr. W. Edwards Deming

Dr. Deming's Ideas Dr. Deming's famous 14 Points, originally presented in Out of the Crisis, serve as management guidelines. The points cultivate a fertile soil in which a more efficient workplace, higher profits, and increased productivity may grow.

? Create and communicate to all employees a statement of the aims and purposes of the company.
? Adapt to the new philosophy of the day; industries and economics are always changing.
? Build quality into a product throughout production.
? End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag alone; instead, try a long-term relationship based on established loyalty and trust.
? Work to constantly improve quality and productivity.
? Institute on-the-job training.
? Teach and institute leadership to improve all job functions.
? Drive out fear; create trust.
? Strive to reduce intradepartmental conflicts.
? Eliminate exhortations for the work force; instead, focus on the system and morale.
? (a) Eliminate work standard quotas for production. Substitute leadership methods for improvement.
(b) Eliminate MBO. Avoid numerical goals. Alternatively, learn the capabilities of processes, and how to improve them.
? Remove barriers that rob people of pride of workmanship
? Educate with self-improvement programs.
? Include everyone in the company to accomplish the transformation.

A decade or so into the imports rise to success, the domestics started getting worried. They decided that perhaps ol' Dr. Deming had hit on something. They decided to get on board. Of course their egos got in the way and they 'modified' his 14 steps. They actually eliminated several of them and re-worded nearly all the rest. These were then rolled out to the workforce with zero support by management and no follow up whatsoever. Then upper management scratched their heads in wonderment for several years wondering why it wasn't working. Finally, a regime change got the ball rolling.

Dr. Deming had a lot to offer. His principles clearly showed that 'quality was free'. It was free because although it appeared to have a higher price tag initially, the costs were not what they appeared to be because of the decreases in rework, the increases in production, the reduced warranty costs, etc., etc. But management liked numbers. Big numbers. It didn't matter to them if 35% of what was produced was shit and needed to be repaired or thrown away. It took them a long time to get on board.

I know these things because I was there. I experienced them firsthand. We, as skilled tradesmen applauded the principles of Dr. Deming. As a tradesperson, there is nothing more discouraging than to go home at the end of the day, knowing you did a half-assed job because your superiors demanded that you do so. You also knew that you were then going to get the blame for the shoddy workmanship when your boss told his boss that you, the tradesman, couldn't cut the mustard just to cover his own ass.

We knew that if we were given good designs, sound engineering, the time, materials and the equipment to do the job right that the results would be robust and long-lasting. Those days finally came, but it remains to be seen if it was too little too late.

The Japanese auto industry embraced the ideals and principles put forth by Dr. Deming in their entirety as they were presented, and did a fine job of kicking our butts.

The tide has turned. But it may be too late.

Good post, it seems like Deming was definitely onto something from a psychological standpoint relative to the workers.

One other thing that TM naysayers keep resounding is that they just "copied" Americans. Of course they reverse engineered some things, but like another poster said, Japan invented Just In Time manufacturing which vaulted TM past the Big 3. I studied this in college, but don't just take my word for it.
Link to history of JIT

A snippet:

History
JIT originated in Japan. Its introduction as a recognised technique/philosophy/way of working is generally associated with the Toyota motor company, JIT being initially known as the "Toyota Production System". Note the emphasis here - JIT is very much a mindset/way of looking at a production system that is distinctly different from what (traditionally) had been done previous to its conception.

Within Toyota Taiichi Ohno is most commonly credited as the father/originator of this way of working. The beginnings of this production system are rooted in the historical situation that Toyota faced. After the Second World War the president of Toyota said "Catch up with America in three years, otherwise the automobile industry of Japan will not survive". At that time one American car worker produced approximately nine times as much as a Japanese car worker. Taiichi Ohno examined the American industry and found that American manufacturers made great use of economic order quantities - the traditional idea that it is best to make a "lot" or "batch" of an item (such as a particular model of car or a particular component) before switching to a new item. They also made use of economic order quantities in terms of ordering and stocking the many parts needed to assemble a car.

Ohno felt that such methods would not work in Japan - total domestic demand was low and the domestic marketplace demanded production of small quantities of many different models. Accordingly Ohno devised a new system of production based on the elimination of waste. In his system waste was eliminated by:

just-in-time - items only move through the production system as and when they are needed
autonomation - (spelt correctly in case you have never met the word before) - automating the production system so as to include inspection - human attention only being needed when a defect is automatically detected whereupon the system will stop and not proceed until the problem has been solved
In this system inventory (stock) is regarded as an unnecessary waste as too is having to deal with defects.

Ohno regarded waste as a general term including time and resources as well as materials. He identified a number of sources of waste that he felt should be eliminated:

overproduction - waste from producing more than is needed
time spent waiting - waste such as that associated with a worker being idle whilst waiting for another worker to pass him an item he needs (e.g. such as may occur in a sequential line production process)
transportation/movement - waste such as that associated with transporting/moving items around a factory
processing time - waste such as that associated with spending more time than is necessary processing an item on a machine
inventory - waste associated with keeping stocks
defects - waste associated with defective items

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

i like how everyone is ignoring the fact that a high yet is biting into their revenue.

 

[mooseracing]

Forgot to mention, title is misleading. CNN stated it as first loss since the 50's.....not first time. Hopefully they go bankrupt though.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: mooseracing
Forgot to mention, title is misleading. CNN stated it as first loss since the 50's.....not first time. Hopefully they go bankrupt though.

Why would you say that? "Hopefully they go bankrupt.."
Thousands of Americans would lose their jobs.
Why do you hate America?

 

[nergee]

Ohno has said that he learned all about JIT from Henry Ford?s book Today and Tomorrow.
Actually, Ernest Kanzler, a Ford subordinate, developed an early version of JIT at the Fordson Tractor Plant
during WWI........

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jagec
Right, because 80s Toyotas got to be much more reliable than American cars by copying their failed designs.

I think you need to read "The Toyota Way".

They got to be better by taking, copying, reverse engineering American innovations. That is the Kaizen process.

Now that the severe cost cutting is going on the corners are being cut in quality and process. There is no Kaizen going on. That's the point.

If you look at the entire Toyota Way there is no innovation, only copying. If you've ever worked with Japenese engineers it is a cultural and way of doing business. Why innovate when you can steal?

Were the japanese copying when they came out with the walkman? Were they copying when they came out with the Prius?
All of those superbikes (motorcycles) they produce, they are copies? of what?
Japan has come up with tremendous innovations in technology and manufacturing.
You're just too stupid to see it.

 

[nergee]

"They got to be better by taking, copying, reverse engineering American innovations. That is the Kaizen process."

I have done Kaizen and have been part of many Kaizen events where I work. Taking, copying, reverse engineering anything
is not in the least bit close to what Kaizen is.
You need to re-read The Toyota Way.....

 

[The-Noid]

SP33DDemon can we go back to TM will never lose its AAA credit rating that was a more fun conversation. Just because you bought a Toyo does not mean you need to have an incredible bias to them.

I think we should make it a wager, if they do not lose their AAA credit rating 89 days I will leave the board, if they do you can leave. I would more than likely be willing to bet that they will go to single A with a negative outlook by Finch in the next 90 days as well.

Toyo is going to start a huge cash burn in the neighborhood of 600-900MM over the foreseeable future. From an analyst call in October they were predicting cash flow positive of 100-200MM a month ex-items, not it has completely gone the other way.