More B.S. propagated under the name of Islam

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7997749.stm

This is not an insult to Islam in any way at all. This is, however, an insult to the parents. It did not even say the couple did anything wrong - simply that the parents did not approve it. It is all about maintaining a power structure, and nothing to do about religion.
Religion is simply used to rationalize their actions and convince any poor population, who generally don't know that much about the details of religion anyways, that what they are doing is right.

Geez...such B.S.
 

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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I disagree, this does have to do with religion. Their own twist on the religion is the problem.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
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Honestly, the best thing I could get out of this story when I read it in my morning paper is that it will hopefully strength everyone's resolve against the existence of the Taliban.

This was the first of a triple-whammy of in-the-name-of-Islam idiocy I got to read in the paper today. The others:

Brother confesses to killing pregnant sister to protect his family's honour

A Jordanian man confessed to stabbing to death his pregnant sister and mutilating her body to protect the family honour. Prosecutor Mohammed al-Tarawneh said the man turned himself into police and has been charged with murder, The Associated Press reported. The 28-year-old married woman was five months pregnant and had moved back in with her family after an argument with her husband. Her brother believed she was seeing other men.

Attempts to introduce harsher sentences for honour killings have been blocked in Jordan's parliament. Some members of government have also urged judges to consider honour killings equal to other homicides and punishable by up to 15 years in prison. But many in the judiciary still hand down lenient punishments of half of that or less.

Immigrant charged with hiring hit men to kill daughter for wearing miniskirt

An Azeri immigrant has been charged with hiring hit men to kill his daughter for wearing a miniskirt. His arrest follows the detention last week of two other citizens of Azerbaijan who confessed to murdering the 21-yearold university medical student. "They admitted to being paid 100,000 rubles [$3,650] by the girl's father. They said he wanted to punish his daughter for flouting national traditions and wearing a miniskirt," a police source said yesterday.

The victim was abducted on the street on March 8, taken to the suburbs, then shot twice in the head. Russia has experienced a revival of conservative religious tradition since the fall of the Soviet Union in its Russian Orthodox and large Muslim communities.

What absolute idiots. I don't know what it is about Islam that fosters the idea that honour amongst your peers in the community is more important than the preciousness of life itself. I'd say it's a result of the uneducated nature of the community in which Islam just happens to be the dominant religion, but that doesn't explain the same crimes occurring here in Canada and in other parts of the West.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Yllus, where does the second article even mention Islam? It just says he did it to protect 'family honor' and nothing more. The second article is about a man who said he did it because she flouted national traditions. Traditions and religion aren't the same thing - in many cases they are very very different. Of course I'm not totally obtuse because people will read where it happened, see the names, and go "ZOMGGGGGGG its Islam!"

In a lot of these types of stories it boils down to the following: people doing things that family heads do not want. Parents do not approve of a marriage, Parent doesn't want daughter wearing miniskirt (you'd think if he really felt that strongly about it he would have spent energy preventing it), and brother is worried that married sister is commiting adultery. Of course these types of domestic violence/murdersoccur in many other places in the world...but we convienently choose to ignore the religion part of it.

However, it does 'grind my gears' when I read about something like this, and the people who helped commit this directly attribute it to religion (something I don't see in the last two articles). I would not be surprised at all if the amount of time these guys spent learning about religion is little. Nominal Christian, nominal Muslim...what is the difference? It reminds of how we, in the west, see the 'dedication of Uighirs' to their religion when we see videos of literally almost all availible males attending Friday prayers...but they leave out that fact that alcoholism is a huge problem among them, and many don't even bother with any other prayer beyond the Friday Jummah.

I suppose such is life. Idiots everywhere, no?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The problem with threads on such incidents is when they don't put them into the context of the more than one billion Muslims.

Cultural myopia meakes it all too easy for people to 'condemn Islam' for problems with a relatively small part of the group. That's often abused by people with an agenda - and in this case, innocently commited and furthered by people who have fallen victim to that effect.

Let's say it: there is a problem affecting a minority of Muslims with these issue, in our view.

Every time there's such a story though, it needs to be noted that these are not reasons to treat Islam as if the religion itself is some sort of threat, much less to justify war (the old 'you can't reason with those crazy people' type of fallacy whenver there are conflicts that come up).

It helps to see how much of a fallacy that is by reading some of their opinions about us, which are very rarely heard in our media - they can point to our exceptional stories (how about the murder of the 8 year old girl in Tracy), to our 'cultural imperfections' (we have an extremely high rate relatively of teen pregnancy, of incarceration, more executions than any Muslim nation except Iran (and than any other nation except China), a sea of freely available pornography, while they mostly shun our abuses of tobacco and alcohol.

How does it look from their view to point to our tens of thousands of drunk driving crashes, our hundreds of thousand of alcohol-fueld incidents, our hundreds of thousands of preventable people being killed by tobacco, as we cndemn them for their terrible problems of these 'honor killings' and such? Our problems don't justify their, and theirs don't justify ours; we can defend some of ours as 'free choices', but they can rationalize - sometimes very wrongly in our view - some of their choices, analogous to our defense of alcohol, while they are broadly condemning others like the sensational story here, just as we broadly condemn cocaine addiction, but still have a lot of it.

Even if we did not have our problems, we should not exaggerate theirs to condemn the religion - as so many do with ignorant selective quotations of their religion to fuel hate - but the fact we do have our own should help people appreciate how wrong it is to condemnt them for theirs, since if we didn't, while we shuldn't, it's harder for people to understand when they can get on a high horse. We have plenty of people doing it now even with our problems.

Iran has executed thousands for being gay. We should condemn that; we should fight for improvement. But we should not use it to fuel a hate that feeds war, for propaganda.

This cultural myopia I mention - it makes it easy for us to not pay any attention as we condemn, say, Saddam for invading Kuwait, where he at least had more rationale based on the regional history or possible 'sideways drilling' into Iraq's oil than we did for invading Mexics, even if his case was trumped up - Mexico too old, we get a pass? We could look at our encouraging his invasion of Iran with far more casualties. But at least we had an honest, democratic process - oh ya, unless you look at the Kuwaiti government's paying Bush's former chief of staff at an advertising agency to overcome the public's opposition to war with a campaign based on the complete fabrications of 'babies taken out of incubators' told tearfully to Congress by the woman the Congress and public weren't told was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador who wasn't there at the time, with no one ever prosecuted for the lies to get our nation into war. Much less, say, our war to kill two million ietnamese for our own wrong reasons.

The ease with which people ignore the contradictions and hypocrisy is a reminder of this cultural myopia, were we are more forgiving to 'our side' for its flaws than 'their side'.

I'm all for identifying, condemning, working to improve the flaws in Muslim nations - as long as the context is not to incite hate and build support for oppression or war.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Robor

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

When was the last killing in an unjustified invasion of another nation by Iran? When was the last cocaine-related murder in a Muslim nation?

That's your problem, not that you're wrong about these killings being a serious problem in a minority of Muslim populations, but in your apparent bias in overly condemning Islam.

As I said, you would be committing error even if the US did not have its own problems, but the fact it does makes the point easy. 'splinter in their eye, beam in your own' etc.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
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There was a very good documentary on Islam, its founding, the text, what it is really about and how it is being twisted by extremist to mean things it doesn't say.
I just can't remember the name. It was on the history channel a couple months ago. Anyone remember it ?

After watching it I learned quite a bit. Islam is not anything like the media portrays it.

It is very similar to how the church in medieval times used the bible to wage war.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: magomago
Yllus, where does the second article even mention Islam? It just says he did it to protect 'family honor' and nothing more. The second article is about a man who said he did it because she flouted national traditions. Traditions and religion aren't the same thing - in many cases they are very very different. Of course I'm not totally obtuse because people will read where it happened, see the names, and go "ZOMGGGGGGG its Islam!"

In a lot of these types of stories it boils down to the following: people doing things that family heads do not want. Parents do not approve of a marriage, Parent doesn't want daughter wearing miniskirt (you'd think if he really felt that strongly about it he would have spent energy preventing it), and brother is worried that married sister is commiting adultery. Of course these types of domestic violence/murdersoccur in many other places in the world...but we convienently choose to ignore the religion part of it.

However, it does 'grind my gears' when I read about something like this, and the people who helped commit this directly attribute it to religion (something I don't see in the last two articles). I would not be surprised at all if the amount of time these guys spent learning about religion is little. Nominal Christian, nominal Muslim...what is the difference? It reminds of how we, in the west, see the 'dedication of Uighirs' to their religion when we see videos of literally almost all availible males attending Friday prayers...but they leave out that fact that alcoholism is a huge problem among them, and many don't even bother with any other prayer beyond the Friday Jummah.

I suppose such is life. Idiots everywhere, no?
Oh please. Do you live life with blinders on all the time?
Let's see a guy of Middle Eastern descent, kills a family member to preserve honor. Unless we have Klingons on earth, there are only a very few handful of reasons why someone would kill a family member to preserve family honor.
If you're so hell bent on people not labeling Islam and Muslims as barbaric, instead of trying to defend their actions by saying not all of them do this or you can't prove he REALLY was a Muslim. Why don't you go and tell your Mulsim friends to stop acting like idiots and stop killing family members because of idealogical reasons.

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Robor

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

When was the last killing in an unjustified invasion of another nation by Iran? When was the last cocaine-related murder in a Muslim nation?

That's your problem, not that you're wrong about these killings being a serious problem in a minority of Muslim populations, but in your apparent bias in overly condemning Islam.

As I said, you would be committing error even if the US did not have its own problems, but the fact it does makes the point easy. 'splinter in their eye, beam in your own' etc.

I'm condemning these type of killings and the fact that when they happen it's often in an islamic culture. If you want to excuse or rationalize it with something completely unrelated like cocaine murders in the US go ahead.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

Upstate NY a couple months ago I believe, when a Muslim decapitated his wife.

Yes, this is more of a cultural thing than a muslim thing, but the cultures where this takes place are predominantly practicianers of islam.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
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In these cases seems the culture comes with the religion. While they can be not related, they are bundled together.

Islam seems to have the misfortune of coming out of the ME with "outdated" values. It's like how the head scarf for woman came from whores (a muslium historian found this out) and is now considered part of the religion.

Honor kills also happen in India and Indian communities in other countries, does anyone know if these are still musliums or are they hindus well?

So instead of discriminating Islam as a whole, perhaps we should find out where people who do these sick things come from and discriminate against people who come form those areas instead?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

Upstate NY a couple months ago I believe, when a Muslim decapitated his wife.

Yes, this is more of a cultural thing than a muslim thing, but the cultures where this takes place are predominantly practicianers of islam.

Yeah, that's my point.

FWIW, I'm not putting down islam specifically. I'm agnostic and don't support organized religion period.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

I never said anything about honor killings. I think that is a cultural phenomenon in that part of the world. What I said specifically was 'fucked up murders' because honor killings simply fall into that category.

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Oh please. Do you live life with blinders on all the time?
Let's see a guy of Middle Eastern descent, kills a family member to preserve honor. Unless we have Klingons on earth, there are only a very few handful of reasons why someone would kill a family member to preserve family honor.
If you're so hell bent on people not labeling Islam and Muslims as barbaric, instead of trying to defend their actions by saying not all of them do this or you can't prove he REALLY was a Muslim. Why don't you go and tell your Mulsim friends to stop acting like idiots and stop killing family members because of idealogical reasons.

Fuck you asshole for that statement. I live in the USA and don't know ANYONE who would even act like this.

I never said they were or were not Muslims. I'm not contesting their label at all. The Afghanis involved in killing these couples, regardless of their religion, are brutal barbaric assholes. What I contest is any belief that Islam commands this. The information you hear just comes from the media and quietly implies that this is a 'Quranic' belief when it is not - I'm making noise and saying 'This is not the actual religion - the people who do this and say it is a Muslim Law either don't know what is written in the Quran, or purposely twist it for their own purposes'. I then commented on why these people may engage in these actions (ie: familial power structure and obedience in culture), and all the sudden I'm an apologist? I never even said I agree, or we should tolerate it, or it isn't a problem! It very much IS, but I want to emphasize that this is not a problem that stems from the Quran at all.
Finally, you have the audacity to try to call me out saying I live with 'blinders', when you probably know VERY LITTLE to NOTHING about Islam that you didn't absorb watching Osama Bin Laden's bullshit rhetoric on his tapes.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

It's more prevalent among Islamic families, even in the west, in fact, it's almost exclusive to Islamic families. (Besides Hindu's i've never heard of any group performing honor killings)
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
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Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
In these cases seems the culture comes with the religion. While they can be not related, they are bundled together.

Islam seems to have the misfortune of coming out of the ME with "outdated" values. It's like how the head scarf for woman came from whores (a muslium historian found this out) and is now considered part of the religion.

Honor kills also happen in India and Indian communities in other countries, does anyone know if these are still musliums or are they hindus well?

So instead of discriminating Islam as a whole, perhaps we should find out where people who do these sick things come from and discriminate against people who come form those areas instead?

For sure you can look to the Middle East where other minority religions have also had 'Honor Killings'. There are also major issues with the coptic church and anyone trying to leave it.

Again, its regretful these things get bundled together - but Islam does NOT promote or tolerate these actions.
Just because the 'christian world' engaged in slavery for the longest time does not mean that the bible says slavery is good.
Just because Chinese culture accepted homosexuality for a very long period of time does not mean Confucian values or Confucius himself would have EVER accepted it (note: This isn't meant to demonize gay people at all - I'm simply trying to illustrate how cultures, which we can view as carefully tied to value systems, often ignore many big points of the value systems).

People often just ignore what the books, from which they claim their cultural draws from, actually say. That doesn't mean 'they aren't moossslims' --> it just means that people are acting contradictory to the book, and you should not make that leap and say "IT IS TEH EBIL RELIGIONS FAULLT"
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

It's more prevalent among Islamic families, even in the west, in fact, it's almost exclusive to Islamic families. (Besides Hindu's i've never heard of any group performing honor killings)

Honor Killings I agree. But fucked up murders in general, JohnOfSheffield, we have plenty of.

One thing, IMO, that needs to be eliminated in ME culture is this 'honor killing' crap. That is what I don't defend at all. You can attack it from a humanistic POV (killing people who don't want to do what you want isn't a good thing) or a religious POV (multiple citations on any sort establishing free choice in the quran be it religion, marriage partners, etc). The best tactic is probably a mixture of both. I can only hope that the younger generations won't follow through with this bullshit.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

It's more prevalent among Islamic families, even in the west, in fact, it's almost exclusive to Islamic families. (Besides Hindu's i've never heard of any group performing honor killings)

Honor Killings I agree. But fucked up murders in general, JohnOfSheffield, we have plenty of.

One thing, IMO, that needs to be eliminated in ME culture is this 'honor killing' crap. That is what I don't defend at all. You can attack it from a humanistic POV (killing people who don't want to do what you want isn't a good thing) or a religious POV (multiple citations on any sort establishing free choice in the quran be it religion, marriage partners, etc). The best tactic is probably a mixture of both. I can only hope that the younger generations won't follow through with this bullshit.

Of course we have a lot of fucked up murders, but did you know that about 10% of all children in Islamic or Hindu families in the west have to abide by honor laws or they will be not only murdered but in many cases tortured?

It's not a small thing and it's something that no one else outside of your community can fight before it happens.

After our run ins here i've long since decided that you're a good man, so no shadow falls on you as far as i'm concerned.

Tradition and Religion are often two and the same, but not always, old traditions DO take strenght from Religion though, which the Taliban have proven.

There is support for this in any religious book you can find. Religion works out of fear and trust as a combo, all religions work that way.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: magomago
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7997749.stm

This is not an insult to Islam in any way at all. This is, however, an insult to the parents. It did not even say the couple did anything wrong - simply that the parents did not approve it. It is all about maintaining a power structure, and nothing to do about religion.
Religion is simply used to rationalize their actions and convince any poor population, who generally don't know that much about the details of religion anyways, that what they are doing is right.

Geez...such B.S.

I read the article exactly the opposite of you.

Governor Ghulam Dastageer Azad told the AFP news agency the killings followed a decree by local religious leaders and were an "insult to Islam".

What I get from it is that any decree by a local religious leader, thus giving the wrong impression that the religion of of islam dictates such 'honor killings', is an insult to Islam.

I.e., the governor agrees with you - this has nothing to do with the religion - and any attempt to claim the killings do is an insult to the religion.

Fern
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

Upstate NY a couple months ago I believe, when a Muslim decapitated his wife.

Yes, this is more of a cultural thing than a muslim thing, but the cultures where this takes place are predominantly practicianers of islam.

Yeah, that's my point.

FWIW, I'm not putting down islam specifically. I'm agnostic and don't support organized religion period.

what does being antagonistic have toi do with anything????
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Robor
This kind of story happens all too often within the islamic culture. Rationalize and excuse all you like but IMO you're not helping your cause.

Oh because we NEEEVER have absolutely fucked up murders in the West :roll:

I don't give it a pass at ALL, I'm interested in in the what the real motivators are, and why people are driven to these actions.

When was the last 'honor killing' to happen in the US?

Upstate NY a couple months ago I believe, when a Muslim decapitated his wife.

Yes, this is more of a cultural thing than a muslim thing, but the cultures where this takes place are predominantly practicianers of islam.

Yeah, that's my point.

FWIW, I'm not putting down islam specifically. I'm agnostic and don't support organized religion period.

what does being antagonistic have toi do with anything????

:confused:
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
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Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


There is support for this in any religious book you can find. Religion works out of fear and trust as a combo, all religions work that way.

Actually the religions themselves don't work that way. Instead what we have are people who will believe anything a so called priest/minister/prophet tells them without really deciding things for themselves. People like to be part of the group, and if the group believes something then most people go along, despite the actual text they base things on saying something totally different.

There is so much that is done in the name of religion that the religion itself never condones.

It is like taliban that claim this is a war authorized by God , its a jihad. The Koran never says that. It says you have the right to defend yourself but you must NOT become the aggressor.
The minute you start instigating a fight you have gone against what the religion teaches.

They are stretching it to say 'well its just one long battle, they started it, we are just defending our land" , but ask a muslim cleric. He will tell you they are taking it out of context and it is not meant to be used that way.