More acidic seas pose new threat, scientists warn

[ericlp]

Text

"These are groups everyone depends on, and if their numbers go down, there are going to be reverberations throughout the food chain," said John Guinotte, a marine biologist at the Marine Conservation Biology Institute. "When I see marine snails' shells dissolving while they're alive, that's spooky to me."

"What we're doing in the next decade will affect our oceans for millions of years," Caldeira said. "CO2 [carbon-dioxide] levels are going up extremely rapidly, and it's overwhelming our marine systems."

We are slowly killing our planet....

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Text

"These are groups everyone depends on, and if their numbers go down, there are going to be reverberations throughout the food chain," said John Guinotte, a marine biologist at the Marine Conservation Biology Institute. "When I see marine snails' shells dissolving while they're alive, that's spooky to me."

"What we're doing in the next decade will affect our oceans for millions of years," Caldeira said. "CO2 [carbon-dioxide] levels are going up extremely rapidly, and it's overwhelming our marine systems."

As a scientist, a realist, and an avid environmentalist, let me be the first to flash the "bullshit" pin on that one.

Several reasons:

1. A small rise in volcanic activity over the last couple of decades is largely responsible for rising CO2 levels.
2. Rising CO2 levels = more efficient CO2 absorption and more rapid plant growth = lowering of CO2 levels. It's a negative feedback cycle.
3. Maybe my chemistry calculations are off, but you need A LOT more of a rise in CO2 in order to get the water to become as acidic as they're claiming.
4. The figures say that pH level has dropped 0.1 units since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Now, here my chemistry knowledge is NOT failing me - to claim that a change in pH of 0.1 is now causing crustacean shells to dissolve when they weren't before is akin to saying that a 1F rise in temperatures is causing the ocean to boil.

Originally posted by: ericlp
We are slowly killing our planet....

No, we're not. We really can't. Life lives in deep volcanic vents, with near 100C temperatures, and acidity that's 3-4 units lower than the general ocean (1000-10000 times)... life exists in every condition thus far found on this planet, aside from inside magma itself. We are not killing the planet. The worst we can do, is kill ourselves.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If you look at that list of scientist in that article most of the agree with Al Gore (who is NOT a scientist) concerning global warming!

Yes - Meuge I attended a lecture at Stanford a few months ago. Basically in a nutshell the lecturer stated his concerns about the scare tactics and the misrepresentation of so called scientific data that were being used to promote this so called "global warming" debacle or fiasco.

The lecturer also touched briefly on what you just posted Meuge!

Nice post!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ericlp

We are slowly killing our planet....

Who needs it anyway.

Bush is building ships to Mars as we speak.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
If you look at that list of scientist in that article most of the agree with Al Gore (who is NOT a scientist) concerning global warming!

Yes - Meuge I attended a lecture at Stanford a few months ago. Basically in a nutshell the lecturer stated his concerns about the scare tactics and the misrepresentation of so called scientific data that were being used to promote this so called "global warming" debacle or fiasco.

The lecturer also touched briefly on what you just posted Meuge!

Nice post!

What a relief. The bacteria deep in the earth will survive. Now all the genetic engineers need to do is turn people into germs. Meuge, please check to see if your head is screwed on. 😀

 

[daniel49]

Do I Tend to believe reports like this with all the hypothetical gesturing.
No, not wholesale.
But:
although large are oceans are not inexaustable and we need to do what we can do to reasonably reduce things that harm the enviroment.
The numbers I have seen on things like the kyoto accord do not fall in that catagory.
I think that we however should be going full tilt at getting away from an oil based economy. To cleaner and renewable sources of energy.
I think that alone would reduce pollutants greatly.
So far that full tilt has been more of a trickle in the US.
I would like to see govt and private industry get that same determined gleem in thier eye that the wife gets as she is headed for that clothes sale.
Enough thinking, scratching and hem hawing around. We need to get her done.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Liberals say it's happening because Al Gore says so. Middle class Republicans say it's not happening because that's what they hear on Fox News. Rich Republicans say even if it is happening, we can't afford to fix it. Why do all these positions scare the hell out of me?

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
If you look at that list of scientist in that article most of the agree with Al Gore (who is NOT a scientist) concerning global warming!

Yes - Meuge I attended a lecture at Stanford a few months ago. Basically in a nutshell the lecturer stated his concerns about the scare tactics and the misrepresentation of so called scientific data that were being used to promote this so called "global warming" debacle or fiasco.

The lecturer also touched briefly on what you just posted Meuge!

Nice post!

What a relief. The bacteria deep in the earth will survive. Now all the genetic engineers need to do is turn people into germs. Meuge, please check to see if your head is screwed on. 😀

Why do you miss the entire point? The scientific evidence they presented doesn't agree with the claims as to its impact... simple as that - anyone with a knowledge of high school chemistry would realize that.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
If you look at that list of scientist in that article most of the agree with Al Gore (who is NOT a scientist) concerning global warming!

Yes - Meuge I attended a lecture at Stanford a few months ago. Basically in a nutshell the lecturer stated his concerns about the scare tactics and the misrepresentation of so called scientific data that were being used to promote this so called "global warming" debacle or fiasco.

The lecturer also touched briefly on what you just posted Meuge!

Nice post!

What a relief. The bacteria deep in the earth will survive. Now all the genetic engineers need to do is turn people into germs. Meuge, please check to see if your head is screwed on. 😀

Why do you miss the entire point? The scientific evidence they presented doesn't agree with the claims as to its impact... simple as that - anyone with a knowledge of high school chemistry would realize that.

No, I got the point. These idiots were screaming it's the end of life on earth, which is some people's books is a catastrophe but you put my mind completely at ease because now I know the germs will survive. What a stupendous relief. 😀

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
If you look at that list of scientist in that article most of the agree with Al Gore (who is NOT a scientist) concerning global warming!

Yes - Meuge I attended a lecture at Stanford a few months ago. Basically in a nutshell the lecturer stated his concerns about the scare tactics and the misrepresentation of so called scientific data that were being used to promote this so called "global warming" debacle or fiasco.

The lecturer also touched briefly on what you just posted Meuge!

Nice post!

What a relief. The bacteria deep in the earth will survive. Now all the genetic engineers need to do is turn people into germs. Meuge, please check to see if your head is screwed on. 😀

Why do you miss the entire point? The scientific evidence they presented doesn't agree with the claims as to its impact... simple as that - anyone with a knowledge of high school chemistry would realize that.

No, I got the point. These idiots were screaming it's the end of life on earth, which is some people's books is a catastrophe but you put my mind completely at ease because now I know the germs will survive. What a stupendous relief. 😀

Jesus, you can be an asshole moonbeam.

 

[Isla]

LOL, Moonbeam has the ability to see past all the posturing!

He very succinctly cut through all the crap in like a sentence or two.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Isla
LOL, Moonbeam has the ability to see past all the posturing!

He very succinctly cut through all the crap in like a sentence or two.

I feel like I'm on the O'Reilly show. Suddenly my scientific reasoning has been labeled as "posturing" and "crap". Nice.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Isla
LOL, Moonbeam has the ability to see past all the posturing!

He very succinctly cut through all the crap in like a sentence or two.

I feel like I'm on the O'Reilly show. Suddenly my scientific reasoning has been labeled as "posturing" and "crap". Nice.

Your scientific reasoning was excellent in my opinion, as good or better than my own doctor. I went to him about a suspicion I had there's a blockage in my aorta but lo and behold, silly me, he told me not to worry about it because I'm dying of cancer.

No offense, Meuge, but your post hit my funny bone. I wasn't "trying" to be an asshole. Some things I guess I do effortlessly.

Hi, Isla. Long time no see. 😀

 

[TheBDB]

4. The figures say that pH level has dropped 0.1 units since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Now, here my chemistry knowledge is NOT failing me - to claim that a change in pH of 0.1 is now causing crustacean shells to dissolve when they weren't before is akin to saying that a 1F rise in temperatures is causing the ocean to boil.

Langdon, who conducted an experiment between 1996 and 2003 in Columbia University's Biosphere 2 lab in Tucson, Ariz., concluded corals grew half as fast in aquariums when exposed to the level of carbon dioxide that will exist by 2050.

Maybe they know something you don't.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: TheBDB

4. The figures say that pH level has dropped 0.1 units since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Now, here my chemistry knowledge is NOT failing me - to claim that a change in pH of 0.1 is now causing crustacean shells to dissolve when they weren't before is akin to saying that a 1F rise in temperatures is causing the ocean to boil.

Langdon, who conducted an experiment between 1996 and 2003 in Columbia University's Biosphere 2 lab in Tucson, Ariz., concluded corals grew half as fast in aquariums when exposed to the level of carbon dioxide that will exist by 2050.

Maybe they know something you don't.

Or maybe this particular species of coral is sensitive to CO2 levels. Growing half as fast isn't the same thing as being killed on the spot. Furthermore, don't you think that it's likely that a global decrease in pH that's happening relatively slowly and constantly, is going to drive selection towards species that are more resistant?

All I am saying is that under no circumstances is a change in pH of 0.1 catastrophic. It might have some local significance, but it's certainly not evidence that we're "killing the planet".

 

[Moonbeam]

I know in a fresh water planted aquarium for best results you inject CO2 into the water. It doesn't dissolve the snails as far as I know.

 

[LunarRay]

Facts is facts and theory isn't!

There are so many variables that can affect the gathering of data that it can be off by a greater degree than the variance indicated....
Show me the beef....

We all are suppose to have begun life as one of Moonbeam's bacterial goo balls so maybe we should end life as one... seems fitting..

 

[ericlp]

Thanks Meuge....

Why should we care? We got what? AT LEAST 50-75 years before anything major starts happening ... I mean the lower plankton oceans food chain start to die off. Yeah, I was waiting for the "Volcano" logic...

1) First off there were BILLIONS more forest and trees to filter out the CO2 that Volcano's spewed out. Maybe your forgot that there is only 10% of the worlds rain forest left to filter out anything....
2) We still have the SAME Volcano eruptions Same Natural CO2 levels in nature but now we have WAY less plant life and we are adding a hell of a lot more to the problem from Coal burning plants to driving cars and BB Q's and Starting up Lawn Mowers...Etc...etc...

It's not just the USA it's CHINA, Australia... The WHOLE world that is cutting down more old growth and heating up water and homes with Coal and fossil fuels not to mention driving billions of cars burning up 50 billion barrels of oil everyday.

But what do I know? I wonder how much coal we are burning to keep your Higher performance 150Watt AMD processors burning? I like to think of the toad that is in the pot and you slowly bring it up to a boil ... The toad does not jump out because it is too late....

Loaiciga wrote that although seawater in certain regions may become more acidic over time, "on a global scale and over the time scales considered [hundreds of years], there would not be accentuated changes in either seawater salinity or acidity from the rising concentration of atmospheric CO2."

Two dozen scientists have written a response questioning this assumption, since it would take thousands of years for such material to reach the ocean from land. "The paper by Loaiciga ignores decades of scholarship, presents inappropriate calculations and draws erroneous conclusions that simply do not apply to real ocean," they wrote. They added that unless carbon-dioxide levels in the atmosphere stabilize soon, the seas would soon exceed the Environmental Protection Agency's recommended acidity limits.

As for dissolving snail shells these are deep sea snails with very thin shells. A fragile ecosystem. It wouldn't take much to kill plankton. Remember when the world had BILLIONS of FROGS?

The frogs were back when dinosaurs were around one of the oldest living creatures on the planet. Now they are dieing out and I barley hear them any more.... I guess that didn't wake anyone up either? Volcano's didn't kill off the frogs because they had millions of acres of forest to filter out the acid rain. If the frogs can't make it wouldn't you think something is wrong? And no, you can't bring up the volcano logic for the wide spread disappearance for frogs.

As for ending life back to bacterial goo balls. That is an option I'd rather not see the human race take but... At this rate it may already be too late. Another tree another dollar....

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Isla
LOL, Moonbeam has the ability to see past all the posturing!

He very succinctly cut through all the crap in like a sentence or two.

I feel like I'm on the O'Reilly show. Suddenly my scientific reasoning has been labeled as "posturing" and "crap". Nice.

Your scientific reasoning was excellent in my opinion, as good or better than my own doctor. I went to him about a suspicion I had there's a blockage in my aorta but lo and behold, silly me, he told me not to worry about it because I'm dying of cancer.

No offense, Meuge, but your post hit my funny bone. I wasn't "trying" to be an asshole. Some things I guess I do effortlessly.

Hi, Isla. Long time no see. 😀

So are you saying its a natural talent? 😉

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Isla
LOL, Moonbeam has the ability to see past all the posturing!

He very succinctly cut through all the crap in like a sentence or two.

I feel like I'm on the O'Reilly show. Suddenly my scientific reasoning has been labeled as "posturing" and "crap". Nice.

Your scientific reasoning was excellent in my opinion, as good or better than my own doctor. I went to him about a suspicion I had there's a blockage in my aorta but lo and behold, silly me, he told me not to worry about it because I'm dying of cancer.

No offense, Meuge, but your post hit my funny bone. I wasn't "trying" to be an asshole. Some things I guess I do effortlessly.

Hi, Isla. Long time no see. 😀

So are you saying its a natural talent? 😉

Or that it's the inevitable curse of being a mirror. 😀

 

[newmachineoverlord]

1. A small rise in volcanic activity over the last couple of decades is largely responsible for rising CO2 levels.

O RLY? graph
Volcanic activity releases less than 255 megatons of carbon dioxide per year, only about 1% of that released by human activities.

2. Rising CO2 levels = more efficient CO2 absorption and more rapid plant growth = lowering of CO2 levels. It's a negative feedback cycle.

This is almost good reasoning, but it's a mental trap lots of people fall into. What it ignores is that the total amount of plants available to grow isn't enough to make up for increased carbon dioxide emmissions. If it were, then atmospheric carbon dioxide wouldn't be increasing (and it is). Even if there were more plants, eventually the carbon dioxide fixing step would cease to be the rate limiting step of photosynthesis and plant growth would be limited by freshwater availability. In the real world though, decreased soil pH due to acid rain can make the plants you speak of extinct long before the equilibrium shifts in their favor.

3. Maybe my chemistry calculations are off, but you need A LOT more of a rise in CO2 in order to get the water to become as acidic as they're claiming.

Your calcs are off. http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/Oce...ogenic%20Carbon%20and%20ocean%20pH.pdf

4. The figures say that pH level has dropped 0.1 units since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Now, here my chemistry knowledge is NOT failing me - to claim that a change in pH of 0.1 is now causing crustacean shells to dissolve when they weren't before is akin to saying that a 1F rise in temperatures is causing the ocean to boil.

A 1F rise in temperatures will cause the oceans to boil if the temperature is already 211F. Here's some help

You see, solubility is a function, not a constant, and it varies with several other things, including pH and temperature. In this case, we're dealing with calcium carbonate shells which are part of the carbon cycle. If you doubt that a weak acid can affect calcium carbonate, then try putting an egg in a jar of vinegar for three weeks. The dissolution of calcium carbonate in water is the cause of formation of stalagmites, stalagtites, and caverns in limestone. While the shells in question won't dissolve instantly, they will dissolve, and enough of them must dissolve to bring the system back into equilibrium.
You seem to be under the misconception that a .1 drop in pH is small. If you had a .1 drop in pH in your blood, your doctor would call it acidosis (though technically it's acidemia.)

 

[Cattlegod]

if this kills all the zebra muscles in the great lakes i will be happy.