Born in Italy. Raised in Italy, France and Switzerland. I am basically without homeland, which sometimes is very sad.
Thread = ruined
Can't we just agree the moonwalk as done by MJ is amazing and leave it at that? Geez.
Can't we just agree the moonwalk as done by MJ is amazing and leave it at that? Geez.
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 26,110
- 4,755
- 126
I thought someone named Tango would have more respect for ballroom dances. 
Oh well. I agree with Homerboy's point: you cannot compare different dances and say the best dancer in one dance is better than the best dancer in another dance. You might as well compare a top athlete to a top scientist and ask who is better in their field. That is a silly, pointless, and neverending endevor.
Each form of dance can have its definition of perfection. The person closest to that perfection in each field would be the top dancer at that particular style. But to compare a perfect tango dancer to a perfect ballet dancer yields you no new information. They are both perfect (or as close as humanly possible).
You also run the risk of overvaluing new or overvaluing old. I've seen people do both. Just because someone is in a new style doesn't make them worse. Just because you like ballet doesn't make the ballet dancers better.
Oh well. I agree with Homerboy's point: you cannot compare different dances and say the best dancer in one dance is better than the best dancer in another dance. You might as well compare a top athlete to a top scientist and ask who is better in their field. That is a silly, pointless, and neverending endevor.
Each form of dance can have its definition of perfection. The person closest to that perfection in each field would be the top dancer at that particular style. But to compare a perfect tango dancer to a perfect ballet dancer yields you no new information. They are both perfect (or as close as humanly possible).
You also run the risk of overvaluing new or overvaluing old. I've seen people do both. Just because someone is in a new style doesn't make them worse. Just because you like ballet doesn't make the ballet dancers better.
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
You're missing the point though. Per the OP and his OPINION he thinks that MJ is the best dancer ever. That is HIS OPINION. There is no "fact" that says XYZ is in fact THE BEST <insert artform here> ever. Why? Because appreciation for art, in all of its forms is entirely a subjective opinion.
Here's one that will blow your mind. Personally I think my 3yr old does better artwork than Andy Worhol. I have a feeling that lots will differ to my opinion, yet I stand by my conviction and my OPINION
Get it yet? Its not 1+1 in art. As a so called art lover I would hope you can appreciate that.
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
You saw where I was going with that hey?
Regardless, I would assume that somebody from Europe would in turn be more inclined to enjoying and art-form that originated from there which makes Tango's opinion valid, yet does not invalidate the OPs
Back on topic... yes MJ was and still is THE SH!T. Amazing. I recall watching that first moonwalk as a young kid. Entire families jaw dropped and the next morning everyone I knew was outside trying to figure it out.
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
Originally posted by: dullard
I thought someone named Tango would have more respect for ballroom dances.
Oh well. I agree with Homerboy's point: you cannot compare different dances and say the best dancer in one dance is better than the best dancer in another dance. You might as well compare a top athlete to a top scientist and ask who is better in their field. That is a silly, pointless, and neverending endevor.
Each form of dance can have its definition of perfection. The person closest to that perfection in each field would be the top dancer at that particular style. But to compare a perfect tango dancer to a perfect ballet dancer yields you no new information. They are both perfect (or as close as humanly possible).
You also run the risk of overvaluing new or overvaluing old. I've seen people do both. Just because someone is in a new style doesn't make them worse. Just because you like ballet doesn't make the ballet dancers better.
I do dance tango and have a tremendous respect for good ballroom dancers. And as I said before, I do think Jackson was a tremendous dancer.
I agree on most of what you say. But I still feel some comparisons between different genres are possible. It's a personal opinion. I have, for example, my opinion about who the greatest tango dancer in the world is. Still I would never put him on the same level of, for example, a great contemporary or ballet dancer.
The level of skilled required for some genres is just inherently higher.
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,890
- 5,001
- 126
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
Trap? There was no trap. You are tying to put a math equation on art forms It is simply impossible. If your waiter friend says "Tango this is the best Opera ever" even though you may like another one better, do you simply take his word for it and cave in ignoring your own opinions and feelings?
Ask your girlfriend whats better Sofie's Choice or Dumb and Dumber. I have a feeling I know which one she will pick, et I don't agree with her, nor will countless others (and on the flip side countless more will agree with her and to blow your mind again, many others may cast a "no vote" citing both as pure crap). Thats the point. Art is entirely about opinions and feelings. Maybe New Yorkers have transcended art and have found some sort of Calculus that can rank everything... me? I like my art based on opinions. Personally I loathe Pop music, completely enjoy classical, jazz and punk rock. Go figure. Maybe I'm wrong though.
You're emphasizing your opinion as fact. Your claim that only people who are scholars of the subject should have a voice is ridiculous. How many of these so called expert dancers and choreographers actually study modern dance? How many of these dance experts will dismiss Jackson's dance style because they don't believe it is on the same level of sophistication? You're merely perpetuating the same academic dishonesty as the emperor you mentioned above in staking a claim that a certain group (your academics) has come to the conclusion that the best of anything is a certain person. I'd imagine that the emperor and the emperor's scholars who were juding the Impressionist paintings were well educated and yet, according to you, they got it all wrong.
It's the arts, it's meant to be interpreted differently and generally the only people who hold steadfast that any specific person is the best are those who wish to feign expertise through their "superior" intellect and education. I have friends who are Opera singers, a family that is involved with the OCPAC, piano teacher who is an ex-Opera singer and I have yet to hear them be pretentious enough to claim that one artist is better than another. Your argument is just silly.
Out of curiousity, what do you think of The Beatles on a musically technical level? Are you a dancer or choreographer yourself? Lastly, I'm not arguing with you that Baryshnikov was one of the best dancers we've known but I'm certainly not going to argue that my opinion is the only correct one.
Sorry about that. I didn't mean it. I thought the debate is actually interesting, but considering some people consider it ruined because of my rants, I'll politely shut up.
And I do agree, 100%, that MJ's moonwalk was in fact amazing.
Originally posted by: Tango
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
So basically if you don't know much about a particular subject, you let others dominate you and make up your mind for you. If you think a particular movie is great, and your girlfriend doesn't, you're whipped into not liking it?
Originally posted by: Homerboy
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
Trap? There was no trap. You are tying to put a math equation on art forms It is simply impossible. If your waiter friend says "Tango this is the best Opera ever" even though you may like another one better, do you simply take his word for it and cave in ignoring your own opinions and feelings?
Ask your girlfriend whats better Sofie's Choice or Dumb and Dumber. I have a feeling I know which one she will pick, et I don't agree with her, nor will countless others (and on the flip side countless more will agree with her and to blow your mind again, many others may cast a "no vote" citing both as pure crap). Thats the point. Art is entirely about opinions and feelings. Maybe New Yorkers have transcended art and have found some sort of Calculus that can rank everything... me? I like my art based on opinions. Personally I loathe Pop music, completely enjoy classical, jazz and punk rock. Go figure. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Well, that the point. The (now mythological) waiter doesn't need to just state his opinion and I will believe it. But usually he's able to explain me the reasons underlining his opinion and after a few seconds I understand he captured something I couldn't see. That's why I recognize he's much more knowledgeable than I am.
He's not using the weight of a degree (which he doesn't have), he's using his knowledge to explain things. And 99% of the time I find myself eventually agreeing with him.
See, that's why I called it a trap. It's a very touchy issue. On one hand you don't want to tell people they are not entitled to have their opinion. On the other hand you must recognize there are limits. It's not calculus. But it's not random either.
You are a jazz-lover. You know that anybody saying Snoop Dog is a better musician than Bill Evans is wrong. There's no way around this. It's not a matter of genres. Bill Evans built a cathedral of Harmonic structures, with references to bith the classical european tradition and afro-american tradition. He was a genius. Snoop Dog is not.
If I over-reacted I apologized. It's just that I find sad to media hype over some contemporary music, where everybody release a good single and immediately MTV starts an orgy of superlatives. As I said, I think this has a terrible impact on the culture of people, and their understanding of the world around them. And the ability to enjoy beautiful things.
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: Tango
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
So basically if you don't know much about a particular subject, you let others dominate you and make up your mind for you. If you think a particular movie is great, and your girlfriend doesn't, you're whipped into not liking it?
I let people try to explain me their positions. People more knowledgeable than I am on a particular subject usually are able to teach me how to appreciate something. Not always. I have some semi-professional background in both performing arts and video and I do disagree A LOT on many of my girlfriend's opinions on cinema.
But many times I realize she's able to fully appreciate things I am not ready for. Just like the situation is often reversed when we argue about photography or music.
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: Tango
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
So basically if you don't know much about a particular subject, you let others dominate you and make up your mind for you. If you think a particular movie is great, and your girlfriend doesn't, you're whipped into not liking it?
I let people try to explain me their positions. People more knowledgeable than I am on a particular subject usually are able to teach me how to appreciate something. Not always. I have some semi-professional background in both performing arts and video and I do disagree A LOT on many of my girlfriend's opinions on cinema.
But many times I realize she's able to fully appreciate things I am not ready for. Just like the situation is often reversed when we argue about photography or music.
Basically, we're all in agreement that people need to have informed opinions and that there'll never be a perfect comparison across genres. Three Cheers!
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: Tango
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
So basically if you don't know much about a particular subject, you let others dominate you and make up your mind for you. If you think a particular movie is great, and your girlfriend doesn't, you're whipped into not liking it?
I let people try to explain me their positions. People more knowledgeable than I am on a particular subject usually are able to teach me how to appreciate something. Not always. I have some semi-professional background in both performing arts and video and I do disagree A LOT on many of my girlfriend's opinions on cinema.
But many times I realize she's able to fully appreciate things I am not ready for. Just like the situation is often reversed when we argue about photography or music.
So in other words I'm entitled to thinking Michael Jackson is the greatest dancer, and you need to STFU before telling me I'm dead wrong and need to get serious.
Nice, I've never been flamed before...
I don't claim you need to be a scholar in order to have an opinion. The legendary waiter never went to college. He's not using the weight of a prestigious degree. He's using his sensibility and knowledge. You are indeed correct on the inability of scholars to judge new waves and radical changes in arts. I fully agree. Academic knowledge ALONE doesn't do the trick.
I do dance tango (which I wouldn't even qualify as a dance) and had a studied some contemporary dance in my early 20s, untill my joints told me it was enough.
I think the Beatles were poor instrumentalists and geniuses at song-writing. They changed the music of th 20th century maybe more than anybody else.
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: Tango
Nice trap.
I'll talk about me, instead of about you. So I'll look less an elitist.
Look, there are things some people know better than others. The diner waiter knows more about opera and ballet than I do. I have no problem with that. His opinion is more relevant than mine, because he's more educated on the subject. Not only, he probably has an higher sensitivity than me. He gets nuances in the interpretations I will never get. If you want to know who's a great opera director today, ask him, not me.
My girlfriend is a film director. She understands and evaluates movies better than I do. She knows more. She's more used to notice things. She can make references and comparisons I would not get, because I haven't see all the stuff she did. She understands lightning. Film choice. Camera movements techniques. Her opinion is more relevant than mine. If yo want to know who's a great movie director today, ask her, not me.
What's the problem with this. I am sorry, but I find incredibly annoying that nowadays one can say that Snoop Dog is a greater musician than Rachmaninov and get away with it. In the long run it hurts the average intelligence of people a lot. It levels down everything to the point where "it's just and opinion".
When I was a kid (and that was a long time ago) my uncle took me to a Jazz concert. I hated every minute of it. Then he sat down and started to teach me how to listen to that music. I tried. And again. And again. I started studying how that music was structured. How players improvise. Why it sounds so different from pop music. How rhythm works. Harmony. Melody. After a year or two I had the greatest passion for Jazz. I wouldn't listen to anything else. It required learning how to listen to it.
It was hard. It was very much worth it.
I don't like it.
So basically if you don't know much about a particular subject, you let others dominate you and make up your mind for you. If you think a particular movie is great, and your girlfriend doesn't, you're whipped into not liking it?
I let people try to explain me their positions. People more knowledgeable than I am on a particular subject usually are able to teach me how to appreciate something. Not always. I have some semi-professional background in both performing arts and video and I do disagree A LOT on many of my girlfriend's opinions on cinema.
But many times I realize she's able to fully appreciate things I am not ready for. Just like the situation is often reversed when we argue about photography or music.
So in other words I'm entitled to thinking Michael Jackson is the greatest dancer, and you need to STFU before telling me I'm dead wrong and need to get serious.
You are entitled to any opinion you want, no matter how gross it is. It's a free country. Well, I would even be happy to listen to your educated arguments about that.
But the point is, nobody with the knowledge about performing arts necessary to argument that, would ever call ballet "jumping around in a tight suit". Unless, maybe, if you are Pina Bausch. But she's an exception.
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