Monopolies are good for the monopolists, not the public

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Our army, air force and navy are federal monoploies asw ell they should be dumb ass, Shall we get rid of those?

Health care could/should also be a federal controlled monopoly as well.

Perhaps you forget in the constitution congress is granted the duty of raising an army and the executive branch is given the role of commanding that army. I forget where in the constitution forced healthcare is granted to any branch of federal govt.

Let me guess, you will try to backdoor the interstate commerce clause? Or how about pull out the lame brain "promote general welfare" card?

Save your keyboard.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Our army, air force and navy are federal monoploies asw ell they should be dumb ass, Shall we get rid of those?

Health care could/should also be a federal controlled monopoly as well.

Army, Air Force and Navy are monopolies?

They're not monopolies, the're not businesses. They don't sell products to consumers etc. Thy are no more a "monopoly" than Congress, the courts, the EPA, Homeland Security etc.. They are part of the gov under the Exec branch and exist as a 'tool' for gov.

Health Care won't be anything close to a monopoly until it is nationalized. Not even single payor could remotely be considered a monopoly. There would still a zillion different doctors' offices and hospitals etc, just one payor.

Fern
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Army, Air Force and Navy are monopolies?

They're not monopolies, the're not businesses. They don't sell products to consumers etc. Thy are no more a "monopoly" than Congress, the courts, the EPA, Homeland Security etc.. They are part of the gov under the Exec branch and exist as a 'tool' for gov.

Health Care won't be anything close to a monopoly until it is nationalized. Not even single payor could remotely be considered a monopoly. There would still a zillion different doctors' offices and hospitals etc, just one payor.

Fern

About time one of the righties noted the distinction of government versus monopoly - which belongs in their own thread. But "e" has a monopoly on the fourth position in the word "payer".
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Postal service
electric company
gas company
Oil (oligopoly)
Car (oligopoly)
Justice System
EPA

Lots of monopolies.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Perhaps you forget in the constitution congress is granted the duty of raising an army and the executive branch is given the role of commanding that army. I forget where in the constitution forced healthcare is granted to any branch of federal govt.

Let me guess, you will try to backdoor the interstate commerce clause? Or how about pull out the lame brain "promote general welfare" card?

Save your keyboard.

Where does it say in the Constitution that we cannot? DUHHH!! Talk about lame reasoning.

Where does the constitution say we can have the FBI, the CIA, the Federal Park system?
 
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nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Army, Air Force and Navy are monopolies?

They're not monopolies, the're not businesses. They don't sell products to consumers etc. Thy are no more a "monopoly" than Congress, the courts, the EPA, Homeland Security etc.. They are part of the gov under the Exec branch and exist as a 'tool' for gov.

Health Care won't be anything close to a monopoly until it is nationalized. Not even single payor could remotely be considered a monopoly. There would still a zillion different doctors' offices and hospitals etc, just one payor.

Fern

LOL, you're claiming that defense is not a business in this country? Really?? LOL, give me a break!!!
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Where does it say in the Constitution that we cannot? DUHHH!! Talk about lame reasoning.

Where does the constitution say we can have the FBI, the CIA, the Federal Park system?

You've never actually read the Constitution, have you? You're a waste of effort.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Because it for everyone's common good, just as our defense is.

Is there anything that the federal government should not provide? Is there anything that could be considered outside of the common good or is the power of the federal government limitless?

You've clearly had too much Koolaid and believe the broad interpretation of the general welfare clause. Your name is wrong, it should be idontknow.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally Posted by BoberFett
So you're going to create legislation to mandate that food cannot contain melamine, is that correct?

What about the million other substances which you don't want your food? Are you going to create a list of every possible thing you don't want in your food? If you miss one, then am I to assume that it's OK if that is in your food? As long as the food processor is following the regulations everything is OK right?

Or would we maybe be better off with far fewer regulations and rely on existing civil lawsuits to punish wrongdoers and for the very severe cases of negligence existing criminal law?

So tell me again, why do we need more and more and MORE AND MORE regulation? Aren't we just creating a mess of laws that only ensure that no competition will ever enter the market at the same time it creates loopholes that existing corporations can weasel their way around with their massive legal department budgets?

[/QUOTE]

So you trust your life to the Corporations and Lawyers?

Brilliant, I like it, then Republicans have a better chance of not even ever being born.

Let's let them abolish all regulation. It will be the end of them too.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0

Because it for everyone's common good, just as our defense is.
If anything, it should be a state issue.

Getting the Feds involved in everything will not do anythign except waste resources and get nothing of quality.

Health is economic related, not national security related.
The system has shown to work for a high majority of the population.

Why break it so it only works for a small majority
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Army, Air Force and Navy are monopolies?

They're not monopolies, the're not businesses. They don't sell products to consumers etc. Thy are no more a "monopoly" than Congress, the courts, the EPA, Homeland Security etc.. They are part of the gov under the Exec branch and exist as a 'tool' for gov.

Health Care won't be anything close to a monopoly until it is nationalized. Not even single payor could remotely be considered a monopoly. There would still a zillion different doctors' offices and hospitals etc, just one payor.

Fern

Xe or blackwater is a business, that provides services like the U.S. military. They don't sell products they provide a service. The government has a monopoly on military force, if they did not have and enforce this monopoly, then companies could hire Xe to protect their interests in foreign countries. The governments actions that prevent companies from using Xe to advance their aims militarily does make them a monopoly (in this case at the very least a semi-good monopoly). In fact, in the past the United States has conducted military actions that were primarily for the benefit of businesses in the US.

In ancient roman times, the fire departments were a business. In several third world countries, the courts are almost a business, where the citizen who brings the largest gift almost always win the decision.

The government provides services, business provide services. The services the government should provide are those services that would be ill served by private entities, but the government does provide services. For example, you mentioned the EPA. We could let private companies perform the services of the EPA, it would be a disaster, but we could do it.

Government monopolies have different problems then private monopolies, but the fact is that the government does indeed have a monopoly on several different services. In England, the government used to grant government monopolies on things like salt and gunpowder through their power to regulate. They were in the business of regulating and creating monopolies, if a person gave the government enough money, they could buy monopoly status. Which is exactly the point I was trying to make. Our government is currently providing the service of regulating monopolies, and if someone can spend enough money on bribes they can "buy" regulatory actions that help the company. (I am from Illinois, our state government is very deep in the business of regulation for bribes)

The reason this is important is because Craig started off the discussion by stating that monopolies are bad for the people. He also makes several false implications, that monopolies are the inevitable result of capitalism, that concentration of wealth leads to monopolies, that government is always needed to prevent monopolies through regulation. It is important to realize that the government is just another form of monopoly, because it makes it clear that the argument is not about how to stop monopolies, but about how to best organize the private and public sector. Craig is hiding his actual argument, behind a false "monopolies are bad" statement. He is smearing the entire private sector as a bad evil corporate machine that is going to generate evil monopolies that will destroy our lives if we do not place the progressive democrats in power to protect us.

He has several good points, and his intentions are good, but he assumes the government monopolies are good by definition because they are the government, while business monopolies are bad by definition because they are businesses. Illinois provides examples of how the government monopoly can be bad (licenses for bribes). It would be interesting to have a good debate about how monopolies, oligopolies and the government should be setup, but he is so vague and intentionally misleading that it would not be productive.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Daishi5, every single point you stated was mine was inaccurate, from very to slightly.

'Intentionally misleading'? Now you are lying offensively.

I was considering whether it was worth correcting your many errors, as you have done better at other times, depsite this being an off-topic government rant you are on, but not with that.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Daishi5, every single point you stated was mine was inaccurate, from very to slightly.

'Intentionally misleading'? Now you are lying offensively.

I was considering whether it was worth correcting your many errors, as you have done better at other times, depsite this being an off-topic government rant you are on, but not with that.

Maybe I failed to understand your implications in the first post and other posts, but it really is not important. If you want to discuss how our society uses government to regulate monopolies, you can't ignore that the ability to regulate monopolies is a government monopoly. It isn't the same as a private monopoly, but it is a monopoly and suffers many of the same problems. I am just a little frustrated that you keep trying to brush away the problems with your solution with a "that is a different topic." If your solution to the problem is a progressive government, then problems with government are indeed part of the topic.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Is there anything that the federal government should not provide? Is there anything that could be considered outside of the common good or is the power of the federal government limitless?

You've clearly had too much Koolaid and believe the broad interpretation of the general welfare clause. Your name is wrong, it should be idontknow.

Is that all you have? I almost feel sorry for you.... not quite, but almost.

It's so great when partisian hacks point fingers. Just remembert you're hate when the health bill passes. I hope you have a fucking heart attack asshole.

There is nothing like the smell of bull shit in the morning. Congrats on making my ignore list because I'm done trading insults with a dickwad like you. You never seem to add anything but hate to a thread, so fuck off troll. I wish I could say OI was wiser for having talked with you, but I can't, so Buh-bye asshat.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
If anything, it should be a state issue.

Getting the Feds involved in everything will not do anythign except waste resources and get nothing of quality.

Health is economic related, not national security related.
The system has shown to work for a high majority of the population.

Why break it so it only works for a small majority

National security is economic related too, whether you're man enough to admit that or not it's the absolute truth.

Someone can come in and run planes into all our insurance bulidings (and hospitals for that matter) and it really doesn't affect me so I don't want to have to pay for national defense because I have nothing to protect? Except of course my life and my health.


We all live under the same defense umbrella and share the costs, why shouodn't we all live under the same health care umbrella and share the costs? Because some of you think you're more deserving of health care? If that's the case the fuck you too.


You're makiing a great case for cutting beinifts to the military
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,572
126
Or would we maybe be better off with far fewer regulations and rely on existing civil lawsuits to punish wrongdoers and for the very severe cases of negligence existing criminal law?

civil lawsuits and criminal law are retrospective. they really can't make people whole, much as we like to pretend. plus, discovery is a bitch, especially years down the road. further, they vary 50 different ways in 50 different states, and even within states. in these circumstances, up-front inspection on a national level makes sense.

further, compliance with applicable safety statutes should never be a complete defense. violation of applicable safety statues should be a prima facie case or in the very least res ipsa loquitur.



National security is economic related too, whether you're man enough to admit that or not it's the absolute truth.

Someone can come in and run planes into all our insurance bulidings (and hospitals for that matter) and it really doesn't affect me so I don't want to have to pay for national defense because I have nothing to protect? Except of course my life and my health.


We all live under the same defense umbrella and share the costs, why shouodn't we all live under the same health care umbrella and share the costs? Because some of you think you're more deserving of health care? If that's the case the fuck you too.


You're makiing a great case for cutting beinifts to the military

military really only works on a coordinated national level. and because it benefits all if it benefits one, it makes sense for the .gov to do it.
 
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