Money is a tool of evil

[WhipperSnapper]

I hope that the original poster will read this wonderful essay from the novel Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It's the "Moral Meaning of Money" speech, and it offers a very different point of view for the original poster to consider. You can find it here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7429

Here's a short excerpt:

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

I hope that the original poster will read this wonderful essay from the novel Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It's the "Moral Meaning of Money" speech, and it offers a very different point of view for the original poster to consider. You can find it here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7429

Here's a short excerpt:

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

I guess I wasn't very clear. I was trying to say that the love of money is where the problems start. It has nothing to do with money in and of itself.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

I guess I wasn't very clear. I was trying to say that the love of money is where the problems start. It has nothing to do with money in and of itself.

And I disagree with that, people don't love money, they love "stuff" and having lots of "stuff" and it's that desire that's the problem not the medium for aquiring that "stuff". Money in and of itself has no value without the "stuff" it can purchase.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

I guess I wasn't very clear. I was trying to say that the love of money is where the problems start. It has nothing to do with money in and of itself.

And I disagree with that, people don't love money, they love "stuff" and having lots of "stuff" and it's that desire that's the problem not the medium for aquiring that "stuff". Money in and of itself has no value without the "stuff" it can purchase.

Now it seems we're just arguing semantics. They love the stuff, then don't they love the money that buys the stuff? I mean they can buy any of the stuff with money, but once it's spent there stuck with the stuff they bought. LOL,

 

[RobCur]

I see, people can not live without money. Money is a symbol of wealth, power and control over one another. Those who can obtain wealth easy have a much better life then those who do not so it's slavery for those who lack money. They don't get the full benefits of it since it's a take it or leave it deal for those who has to employ themselves at the mercy of their employer inorder to get this money to pay bills and buy stuff necessary for life. Money is like a god, you gotta love it, you got to worthship it but it is a devil in nature that has caused many to die in the past unnecessarily just so someone can get richer. Land is free, water is free, oxygen is free so why should money exist just so we are servants of it? Money makes us think that it has value in it but it does not. What's valueable to one person is not valuable to another. A solution is not barter but we need debt free money that no one has a monopoly over it or control of how much money should their be in circulation. When I say it is a tool of evil, it is as we the people of the republics has no control over it whatsoever. If someone borrows 100k, they should pay back only that 100k. borrowing is a sin, it is immoral in nature so why do it?
Borrowing is not a good thing much like gambling, this is where most are fudged up.
You don't borrow something you can't afford to pay back and don't agree on paying any interest because these lender are living off of you like a leech. A banker is not an honest business, it is deceitful and lies to get the better of you.

Let's say you borrow 100 dollars from me but after a month, would it make sense to pay back 10 dollars in interest for a total of 110. But that person did no work. That 10 dollar is going to have to come from some where, you have to make it appear out of thin air if you can, if not bust your butt for another 10.00

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: RobCur
I see, people can not live without money. Money is a symbol of wealth, power and control over one another.

Money is not a symbol of anything other than brightly colored bits of paper. Money is a mechanism for exchange of what value you can create to others. The only one to blame for you not having enough value to exchange for the production of others is YOU. YOU didn't work hard enough, YOU didn't bring enough value to others and MAYBE if you had enough PERSONAL RESPONSEABILITY to accept that the ONLY ONE TO BLAME FOR YOUR FAILURE IS YOU then you could do something about it.

Land is free, water is free

No item of limited quantity is free, and land and water are certainly of limited quantity.

A solution is not barter but we need debt free money that no one has a monopoly over it or control of how much money should their be in circulation.

If there is no control over the supply of money it has NO value, this is fundemental economics, not only that but you are obviously trying to say something completely different. Educate yourself before you try to discuss it or spend a little more time presenting your words in an understandable manner.

When I say it is a tool of evil, it is as we the people of the republics has no control over it whatsoever. If someone borrows 100k, they should pay back only that 100k.

A fundemental principle of Islam and a reason why an Islamic political entity will never succeed in the global marketplace. Without interest there is absolutely no reason that someone with resources would LOAN you those resources. That incentive is interest and it's a result of the opportunity cost of the money being loaned. Again a fundemental principle of economics.

You don't borrow something you can't afford to pay back and don't agree on paying any interest because these lender are living off of you like a leech. A banker is not an honest business, it is deceitful and lies to get the better of you.

Money lending allows class mobility. Without the ability to borrow resources and expand on them there would be strict class seperation and the wealthy would always be wealthy and the poor would remain serfs. You argue on the evil of money with the intent to enforce strict classes and elminate the mobility in society. The only thing I can say is you are completely ignorant of history if you think that is a good thing.

Let's say you borrow 100 dollars from me but after a month, would it make sense to pay back 10 dollars in interest for a total of 110. But that person did no work. That 10 dollar is going to have to come from some where, you have to make it appear out of thin air if you can, if not bust your butt for another 10.00

The person that loaned you the money could have taken that 10.00 and invested it in a business and obtained direct benefits (with risk) from that fiscal investment. That is the opportunity cost to the lender, if you cannot provide value to counter that opportunity lost by them lending you the money then what is the incentive for them to loan you money? The simple answer is there is no incentive and without that incentive there is no lending. Look to the Islamic countries and note the strict class boundaries, the inability to move out of your class and the complete and total control the oligarchy have in addition to the inability of the citizens to borrow money to purchase.

Envy is one of the "seven deadly sins" as identifed in the middle ages because it is a consuming emotion that drags down your happiness and brings you to sin. You should throw off your jealousy that others can produce more than you and work to change it or accept that you don't bring much to this world.

By your statements you have never taken an economics course, and apparently are ignorant of history. Are you a teenager with no concept of the world or are you just an ignorant blue collar laborer without education and severe case of class Jelousy?

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: RobCur
I see, people can not live without money. Money is a symbol of wealth, power and control over one another. Those who can obtain wealth easy have a much better life then those who do not so it's slavery for those who lack money. They don't get the full benefits of it since it's a take it or leave it deal for those who has to employ themselves at the mercy of their employer inorder to get this money to pay bills and buy stuff necessary for life. Money is like a god, you gotta love it, you got to worthship it but it is a devil in nature that has caused many to die in the past unnecessarily just so someone can get richer. Land is free, water is free, oxygen is free so why should money exist just so we are servants of it? Money makes us think that it has value in it but it does not. What's valueable to one person is not valuable to another. A solution is not barter but we need debt free money that no one has a monopoly over it or control of how much money should their be in circulation. When I say it is a tool of evil, it is as we the people of the republics has no control over it whatsoever. If someone borrows 100k, they should pay back only that 100k. borrowing is a sin, it is immoral in nature so why do it?
Borrowing is not a good thing much like gambling, this is where most are fudged up.
You don't borrow something you can't afford to pay back and don't agree on paying any interest because these lender are living off of you like a leech. A banker is not an honest business, it is deceitful and lies to get the better of you.

Let's say you borrow 100 dollars from me but after a month, would it make sense to pay back 10 dollars in interest for a total of 110. But that person did no work. That 10 dollar is going to have to come from some where, you have to make it appear out of thin air if you can, if not bust your butt for another 10.00

You are a dirty pirate hooker.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

I guess I wasn't very clear. I was trying to say that the love of money is where the problems start. It has nothing to do with money in and of itself.

And I disagree with that, people don't love money, they love "stuff" and having lots of "stuff" and it's that desire that's the problem not the medium for aquiring that "stuff". Money in and of itself has no value without the "stuff" it can purchase.

Yes they do love money. Warren Buffet does and has said as much. My grandfather did. He put away every cent he could at the expense of himself and the health of his wife and family.

Ayn Rand got it wrong again.

One of the better translations of the Bible (from which this saying arises) is

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness."

Now the context is clearly is religious, but I have known men who chased after wealth and forgot the more important things, as my grandfather I mentioned earlier did.

At some point we no longer own our things, our things own us.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: RobCur
It makes people go to war for private interest. It controls people as if their sheeps. Lack of money means you never have enough to spend due to not being in control of money. Money is war power, money is destructive to the environment, it deprives people of their basic needs by making them work their ass off just for it while the one in control, the bankers live a life of luxury. It fuckingsucks, I am poor as hell...and bitter. :|

PS: It maybe true that we can't all be rich but does the few deserves to be super rich while the rest are slaves to them? I think not. I think most of us are too stupid to think about it and do something about it.

Fixed...and you really need to brush up on your grammar. Being able to express yourself coherently makes you look less like a buffoon and people will be more likely to take you seriously.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: RobCur
I see, people can not live without money. Money is a symbol of wealth, power and control over one another. Those who can obtain wealth easy have a much better life then those who do not so it's slavery for those who lack money. They don't get the full benefits of it since it's a take it or leave it deal for those who has to employ themselves at the mercy of their employer inorder to get this money to pay bills and buy stuff necessary for life. Money is like a god, you gotta love it, you got to worthship it but it is a devil in nature that has caused many to die in the past unnecessarily just so someone can get richer. Land is free, water is free, oxygen is free so why should money exist just so we are servants of it? Money makes us think that it has value in it but it does not. What's valueable to one person is not valuable to another. A solution is not barter but we need debt free money that no one has a monopoly over it or control of how much money should their be in circulation. When I say it is a tool of evil, it is as we the people of the republics has no control over it whatsoever. If someone borrows 100k, they should pay back only that 100k. borrowing is a sin, it is immoral in nature so why do it?
Borrowing is not a good thing much like gambling, this is where most are fudged up.
You don't borrow something you can't afford to pay back and don't agree on paying any interest because these lender are living off of you like a leech. A banker is not an honest business, it is deceitful and lies to get the better of you.

Let's say you borrow 100 dollars from me but after a month, would it make sense to pay back 10 dollars in interest for a total of 110. But that person did no work. That 10 dollar is going to have to come from some where, you have to make it appear out of thin air if you can, if not bust your butt for another 10.00

If I lend money to a family member or a friend, I do not charge interest. But I see nothing wrong with a business charging interest. By borrowing money from that entity, I am preventing them from using it so why not charge some interest for that benefit of being able to use it?

You seem to think it's somehow wrong for people to have to work to survive. Yes, land is free, water is free etc. But it requires work to make that land and water usable. You have to boil the water to be able to drink it. You have to work the land to grow crops.

Life isn't a free ride. I can't imagine any way for everyone in the world to avoid working just to survive. There is no system that can avoid this. So, I don't understand your complaints.

One thing that really bugs me is that you seem to revive your old threads by just repeating what you said earlier. You add nothing to your argument. And I don't think you care about the welfare of others who are "slaves" to employers because you hang around the hot deal forums which is just supporting this "immoral and unjust" system you constantly complain about.

 

[RobCur]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: RobCur
I see, people can not live without money. Money is a symbol of wealth, power and control over one another. Those who can obtain wealth easy have a much better life then those who do not so it's slavery for those who lack money. They don't get the full benefits of it since it's a take it or leave it deal for those who has to employ themselves at the mercy of their employer inorder to get this money to pay bills and buy stuff necessary for life. Money is like a god, you gotta love it, you got to worthship it but it is a devil in nature that has caused many to die in the past unnecessarily just so someone can get richer. Land is free, water is free, oxygen is free so why should money exist just so we are servants of it? Money makes us think that it has value in it but it does not. What's valueable to one person is not valuable to another. A solution is not barter but we need debt free money that no one has a monopoly over it or control of how much money should their be in circulation. When I say it is a tool of evil, it is as we the people of the republics has no control over it whatsoever. If someone borrows 100k, they should pay back only that 100k. borrowing is a sin, it is immoral in nature so why do it?
Borrowing is not a good thing much like gambling, this is where most are fudged up.
You don't borrow something you can't afford to pay back and don't agree on paying any interest because these lender are living off of you like a leech. A banker is not an honest business, it is deceitful and lies to get the better of you.

Let's say you borrow 100 dollars from me but after a month, would it make sense to pay back 10 dollars in interest for a total of 110. But that person did no work. That 10 dollar is going to have to come from some where, you have to make it appear out of thin air if you can, if not bust your butt for another 10.00

If I lend money to a family member or a friend, I do not charge interest. But I see nothing wrong with a business charging interest. By borrowing money from that entity, I am preventing them from using it so why not charge some interest for that benefit of being able to use it?

You seem to think it's somehow wrong for people to have to work to survive. Yes, land is free, water is free etc. But it requires work to make that land and water usable. You have to boil the water to be able to drink it. You have to work the land to grow crops.

Life isn't a free ride. I can't imagine any way for everyone in the world to avoid working just to survive. There is no system that can avoid this. So, I don't understand your complaints.

One thing that really bugs me is that you seem to revive your old threads by just repeating what you said earlier. You add nothing to your argument. And I don't think you care about the welfare of others who are "slaves" to employers because you hang around the hot deal forums which is just supporting this "immoral and unjust" system you constantly complain about.

Maybe for you because you are a tolerable peson but I am not for the sake of unfairness. I see nothing wrong with working but I see something wrong with living off others hardwork through investment scam and shadyness through lies about their interest crap shoved down onto you through bs public education. My friends you have been brainwashed from child till now and still haven't awaken yet. Is not that I love money but I need money just as bad as the bankers and their associates namely stock brokers, stealing money from me and you through illegal inside tradingz behind our backs. recession is caused by them to piss us off and we are pissed at each other which is just wrong. let's not direct all your angers at me because you are losing your mind.

 

[RobCur]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The OP says "Money is a tool of evil", not "Money is the root of all evil".

Money is a nessescity for civilization. It can be a tool for good or evil. Money can and is used to provide security, so the more money you can get, the better. That is where the problems start.

Like any tool money can be abused, but as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, it is simply an abstraction of the exchange of your production for the production of others. Those that are better producers can exchange their production for material items. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the items you want and others want. Advertising has created those desires, it's made you want what you don't need to survive, it's made you want to posess things. The materialism, the limited supply and the greed associated with it is the problem, not the money. Don't blame the tool for the real problem.

I guess I wasn't very clear. I was trying to say that the love of money is where the problems start. It has nothing to do with money in and of itself.

And I disagree with that, people don't love money, they love "stuff" and having lots of "stuff" and it's that desire that's the problem not the medium for aquiring that "stuff". Money in and of itself has no value without the "stuff" it can purchase.

Yes they do love money. Warren Buffet does and has said as much. My grandfather did. He put away every cent he could at the expense of himself and the health of his wife and family.

Ayn Rand got it wrong again.

One of the better translations of the Bible (from which this saying arises) is

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness."

Now the context is clearly is religious, but I have known men who chased after wealth and forgot the more important things, as my grandfather I mentioned earlier did.

At some point we no longer own our things, our things own us.

Why are we always finghting over money problems? Is more money happiness? wihtout money i can see why most are so frustrated. no kidding. noshit. so its evil. some even wants to hurt me personally just because it doesn't agree with their ideology of the true nature of money. and that it's possessive and destructive to our needs and wants.
.
i have to conclude that things that are free are looked upon as worthless or immoral. so what who cares?? these peeps enjoy being controlled, being manipulated just like peasants in feudalism. everytihng in life has values whether some think it's worht a penny or nothing. that's something that some tards will have to consider because money can't buy everything in life other then control over one another often through lies and deception. you can't buy your way to heaven, you can't buy another life if you get into a wreck, it is not life insurance, you can't live 200 years just because you have all the money intheworld. money is very serious business because most take it far serious then anything else. i hate people who loves money, that's crazy. we're far more important then money, money can go to hell. i've seen all the bad thing it does to people, i want to destroy it.
$1.00
$.01
$.05
$1,000,000.00

 

[Amplifier]

Money isn't the root of all evil, trolling is.

 

[RobCur]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
Money isn't the root of all evil, trolling is.

Jesus Christ, you only posted to say this???

Thanks for you valuable time. :roll:

Makes me just wanna roll over and die already.

 

[Emultra]

Money is the result of production, and the optimal trading good.

I wouldn't trade a video card for milk or grain.

 

[ExpertNovice]

RobCur,

I hope you are either using sarcasm or trolling and not really serious.

 

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by: RobCur

Originally posted by: Amplifier
Money isn't the root of all evil, trolling is.

Jesus Christ, you only posted to say this???

Thanks for you valuable time. :roll:

Makes me just wanna roll over and die already.

I was referring to all those people mocking your perfectly valid opinion. Me thinks they're a bunch of Americans that are jealous of our great socialist values.

Workers of ATP&N unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains!