Modifications to PayPal's User Agreement

[Acts837]

Just received an e-mail about "Modifications to PayPal's User Agreement"

Has anyone read it? Impacts to us?

 

[ThisIsMatt]

The ultimate in laziness, haha

 

[Acts837]

I'm reading...just a little slow

 

[alm99]

I read almost all the way to the bottom then got tired of it, let me know if you find something thats out of the ordinary

 

[RossMAN]

Where is the Paypal bot damon when you need him?

 

[Acts837]

I also got tired of reading it. Didn't see anything that jumped out at me. What I am considering though is the fees I pay for a premier account. Maybe I'll let this one close and then open up a personal account with no fees.

 

[NOX]

For anyone who wants to read: here & here.

I haven't read it all, but I do think feedback is good if possible.

 

[Smolek]

Yep and it seems sellers who accept it are in some trouble should they get a shady buyer;

"If your claim involves receiving not-as-described goods, you will be required to ship the goods back to the seller. You must use an online-trackable shipping service to return the goods to the seller, so PayPal can verify the return of the goods. If you do not use an online-trackable shipping service, your claim may be denied"

 

[amdskip]

Originally posted by: Smolek
Yep and it seems sellers who accept it are in some trouble should they get a shady buyer; "If your claim involves receiving not-as-described goods, you will be required to ship the goods back to the seller. You must use an online-trackable shipping service to return the goods to the seller, so PayPal can verify the return of the goods. If you do not use an online-trackable shipping service, your claim may be denied"

What about not receiving the goods. They wanted me to agree but I declined and I have 60 days to agree with it now.

 

[NOX]

Originally posted by: amdskip

Originally posted by: Smolek
Yep and it seems sellers who accept it are in some trouble should they get a shady buyer; "If your claim involves receiving not-as-described goods, you will be required to ship the goods back to the seller. You must use an online-trackable shipping service to return the goods to the seller, so PayPal can verify the return of the goods. If you do not use an online-trackable shipping service, your claim may be denied"

What about not receiving the goods. They wanted me to agree but I declined and I have 60 days to agree with it now.

I did the same, 60 days left. I'm not sure what to do, but I may just go back to the old way, M.O., and you ship first before I send product unless you have great heat.

 

[vegetation]

Basically, any buyer can send back the "item" to you and get a full refund instantly. All they need to do is purchase some form of trackable mail, which includes USPS delivery confirmation. This is the scenario that will begin to happen:

a) Buyer pays for your $500 new sealed digital camera, all appears fine
b) Few weeks go by, you left them a positive and said thanks, great sale
c) Another week passes by and the buyer ships back either
1) your item, all scratched up, used and abused
2) does the 'switcharoo' trick by sending back an identical item that is already broken
3) doesn't even bother sending back the correct item; sends rocks to you, or even just a 2oz bubble envelope w/ delivery confirmation on it
d) Paypal refunds the buyer their money in full. Seller has account debited. If you have a zero balance your account may get locked (in the new agreement)
e) Buyer leaves you negative feedback, date is past 45 days so you cannot file a non-paying bidder alert; you lost all your ebay fees

Paypal has stated they do not care whether or not the correct item is sent back to you because they believe the buyer 100%, as long as they purchased trackable mail all the money will be refunded to them. The process will become automatic. The seller has no recourse.

If you sell things like tickets or vouchers, the buyer can just use them, then return the void portion back to you and get a refund.

Originally posted by: Smolek
Yep and it seems sellers who accept it are in some trouble should they get a shady buyer;

 

[chowderhead]

I wish Paypal would explicitly state in each transaction what type it was i.e. instant transfer, Bank transfer, Credit Card or whatever.
It would help me decide whether the buyer can do charge-backs. But then that doesn't help Paypal earn more $$.

<Edit> the example above my message outlining ways to defraud people give me GREAT pause as a seller </edit>
I hope Paypal responds.

 

[Evadman]

Ebay can now screw over the honest sellers even more. good Job e-bay. Hello Scam artists!

 

[vegetation]

The new reversal policy will affect all payment funds, whether it be by credit card, bank transfer, existing balance, or whatever, it's all the same.

Originally posted by: chowderhead
I wish Paypal would explicitly state in each transaction what type it was i.e. instant transfer, Bank transfer, Credit Card or whatever.
It would help me decide whether the buyer can do charge-backs. But then that doesn't help Paypal earn more $$.

 

[abovewood]

Paypal has stated they do not care whether or not the correct item is sent back to you because they believe the buyer 100%, as long as they purchased trackable mail all the money will be refunded to them. The process will become automatic. The seller has no recourse.

This sounds really bad.

 

[simms]

Originally posted by: abovewood

Paypal has stated they do not care whether or not the correct item is sent back to you because they believe the buyer 100%, as long as they purchased trackable mail all the money will be refunded to them. The process will become automatic. The seller has no recourse.

This sounds really bad.

And I was just about to go with PP too.

Simon

 

[Mallow]

geez this sux.

 

[Ns1]

i've already started using MO only for big ticket items

not even worth it anymore

 

[NOX]

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis
i've already started using MO only for big ticket items

not even worth it anymore

I agree.

Basically what PayPal is saying is, we want to charge you for a service but we don't want to be held responsible if anything goes wrong. So if you agree to the terms, you are giving up all rights to hold PayPal accountable.

 

[tcsenter]

Basically, any buyer can send back the "item" to you and get a full refund instantly. All they need to do is purchase some form of trackable mail, which includes USPS delivery confirmation.

Basically, this is false. Do people NOT know how to read? CRIPES!

There is nothing in the new policy that would suggest this to be the case. Per Pay Pal's new Buyer Complaint Policy updated February 13, 2003:

The buyer has 30 days to file a complaint with Pay Pal. "PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller."

This applies only to non-delivery of goods, as opposed to merely items received "not-as-described":

"If your claim involves receiving not-as-described goods, we suggest using an online-trackable shipping service if you choose to return the goods to the seller. Please be aware that though you are not covered for not-as-described claims under this Buyer Complaint Policy, using an online-trackable shipping service may help you in working directly with the seller to resolve the problem."

In addition:

"This Additional Protection does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, goods that have been lost in the mail as shown by seller's presentation of proof of shipment, payments for services, payments to Unverified sellers, or a seller's failure to deliver intangible goods."

If you have proof of shipment, and are keeping appropriate records, there should be no problem.

Further, I cannot find the statement quoted by Smolek anywhere in Pay Pal's new user agreement or policies, or anything similar to it. It would be of great help if people would CITE THEIR SOURCE OF INFORMATION so others can go to that source and verify any information. If you can't cite your source, don't bother quoting.

 

[NOX]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Basically, any buyer can send back the "item" to you and get a full refund instantly. All they need to do is purchase some form of trackable mail, which includes USPS delivery confirmation.

Basically, this is false. Do people NOT know how to read? CRIPES!

I have not seen that either, however my concern is here:

2.4 Release. In the event that you have a dispute with one or more users, you release PayPal (and our officers, directors, agents, subsidiaries, joint ventures and employees) from any and all claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes. If you are a California resident, you waive California Civil Code §1542, which says: "A general release does not extend to claims which the creditor does not know or suspect to exist in his favor at the time of executing the release, which if not known by him must have materially affected his settlement with the debtor."

2.5 No Warranty. WE, OUR PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES AND OUR SUPPLIERS PROVIDE OUR SERVICES "AS IS" AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY OR CONDITION, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY. WE, OUR PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES AND OUR SUPPLIERS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. PayPal shall make reasonable efforts to ensure that requests for electronic debits and credits involving bank accounts, credit cards, and check issuances are processed in a timely manner and but we make no representations or warranties regarding the amount of time needed to complete processing because our Service is largely dependant upon many factors outside of our control, such as delays in the banking system or the U.S. or international mail service. Some states do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other legal rights that vary from state to state.

The above clause is completely separate from PayPal's Money Back Guarantee, which you may choose to purchase at the time of an eligible transaction, and which assigns to you certain privileges, as defined in the Money Back Guarantee Policy.

2.6 Limit of Liability. IN NO EVENT SHALL WE, OUR PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES OR OUR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH OUR WEB SITE, OUR SERVICE, OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE).

OUR LIABILITY, AND THE LIABILITY OF OUR PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES AND SUPPLIERS, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF (A) THE AMOUNT OF FEES YOU PAY TO US IN THE 12 MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ACTION GIVING RISE TO THE LIABILITY, AND (B) $100. Some states do not allow the exclusion of limitation of incidental or consequential damages so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.

2.7 Indemnification. You agree to indemnify and hold PayPal, its parent, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, directors and employees harmless from any claim or demand (including attorneys' fees) made or incurred by any third party due to or arising out of your breach of this Agreement or the documents it incorporates by reference, or your violation of any law or the rights of a third party relating to your use of the Service.

If someone can clear this up, that would be great.

 

[tcsenter]

I have not seen that either, however my concern is here:

If someone can clear this up, that would be great.

This is your standard "pro forma" statement of indenmification, limitation of liability, and exclusion of implied or expressed warranty which every company on earth uses in its legal disclaimer, or 99.9% of them, anyway.

There is nothing remarkable in it that is unexpected, unreasonable, or uncommon.

 

[chowderhead]

The new reversal policy will affect all payment funds, whether it be by credit card,

I am getting tired of Paypal. I only want to see what % of all my transactions involve
1). Credit Cards.
2). Bank Transfers
3). Existing funds
4). Echecks - which they tell you.
I have a sneaky feeling, the bulk of the transactions are from #2 and #3. If people start to see that paypal charges the fees when all they do is move money from one account to another ... gripes.
I have no problems getting charged when people use Credit cards but I am getting fed up with being charged for 2). and 3).
</rant> . Plus, I do not know which users can do a charge back because of they don't tell me it was a credit card purchase.

 

[Akaz1976]

Its not like there are a lot of options

Especially for us canucks who have to make cross border payments!

Akaz

 

[simms]

Originally posted by: Akaz1976
Its not like there are a lot of options

Especially for us canucks who have to make cross border payments!

Akaz

Exactly... I'm in a deal right now where I can't use PP :|