Moderators are impotent? (Apparently not, but they are bad communicators.)

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Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
Hell I constantly get signed up for Porno Spam by the fscktards who post here

Ooh! Bypassing the word filter! Ban him! :)

There's this thing on your profile called "Email Visibility". Uncheck it and nobody can sign you up for anything (unless they already know your address). Don't complain about it if you don't take precautions against it.
If I want to participate in the For Sale Fortum I must have it enabled. That's besides the point. Being able to single out a Moderator would only lead to snivelers and whiners attacking him here and at other sites he may frequent.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
76
Actually I just want the administration and moderators to respond to issues raised by users with something other than a locking of the thread because previous threads didn't lead anywhere.

Know what? Forget it. I read the thread in OT about the mods being extreme, and the response seems to me to be that it's not going to change no matter what; there will always be seemingly random locks, bans, deletions, with no set rules and no consistency with the mods. So I'll just shut up once again.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I figured I was the only one who gets signed up for numerous gay and animal porn spams. Most of them say "you recently subscribed from IP# blah blah blah"

It gets frustrating after a while because I KNOW it is not just typical spam. I was signed up for it because my ISP has a very good Spam filter.
 

Aves

Lifer
Feb 7, 2001
12,232
30
101
Originally posted by: Millennium
I figured I was the only one who gets signed up for numerous gay and animal porn spams. Most of them say "you recently subscribed from IP# blah blah blah"

It gets frustrating after a while because I KNOW it is not just typical spam. I was signed up for it because my ISP has a very good Spam filter.

If it gives the IP you should definitely let the mods now about it, they might be able to find the person and sh!tcan them.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
I figured I was the only one who gets signed up for numerous gay and animal porn spams. Most of them say "you recently subscribed from IP# blah blah blah"

It gets frustrating after a while because I KNOW it is not just typical spam. I was signed up for it because my ISP has a very good Spam filter.
Just sign up for a free email account from Care2 and use that instead of the one from your ISP.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
Actually I just want the administration and moderators to respond to issues raised by users with something other than a locking of the thread because previous threads didn't lead anywhere.

Know what? Forget it. I read the thread in OT about the mods being extreme, and the response seems to me to be that it's not going to change no matter what; there will always be seemingly random locks, bans, deletions, with no set rules and no consistency with the mods. So I'll just shut up once again.

I have felt the EXACT same way for a long time now.

Dear Moderators:

There is a large portion of members here who are fed up with the moderation situation. Having moderators who are able to ban but not able to mail or pm is amazingly thoughtless. I have been banned before, emails did not get responded to, ever. I see people all the time who email the moderators, and they get no replies. I see unfair locks and bans often, yet I see no recourse against the moderators. I have read a response from one of the moderators, basically stating that the mods all communicate with each other and no crazy things are allowed to happen, yet I have seen many and i know many others also have.

Something needs to be done. Every so often, a thread like this comes up in FI, some discussion happens, and then it is locked, as this thread was until Lord Evermore apparently requested it be unlocked. People wonder why the forums are seemingly descending into a cesspool of crap, well I think the answer is that the respectful and intelligent members, who see what is going on, are being ignored. Their opinions are being covered up, locked, and let drop into oblivion, or simply deleted. I would love to see some sort of intervention, discussion, SOMETHING happen, but alas, I fear nothing will change, my opinion, along with everyone else's, will be ignored yet again, and I will become more and more jaded. If it weren't for a handful (literally) of interesting, open minded people in the OS and OT forums, and the fact that I can get good deals in FS/FT, I would have left here long ago.

Now, provided everyone is willing to be reasonable, and make some compromises, what can we do to fix this situation? I genuinely hope someone does do something.
 

Entity

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
10,090
0
0
Like many of you, I think something should be done. The problem that I have is, well, what?

I don't see a community in decline. I see a community in flux. I've been here for five years now, and while that's not as long as many, it's longer than most; the problems I see AT (most specifically ATOT) dealing with are ones that, IMHO, cannot be resolved. Wanna see what I mean?

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985665

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985659

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985664

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985615

Which of these threads are useless? Do you think that you can come to a consensus on which of them should be locked, and what should be left alone?

The problem with ATOT, IMHO, is inherent in the title: it's off-topic. Thus, judging what should stay and what should go is difficult, as there is no topical ideal to judge it against.

What have I learned to do? Well, to be honest, I've never had the feeling that I'm "treading on thin ice" here - maybe I'm just too even tempered, or I post by the same rules I live and communicate by. Either way, while users have pissed me off, the forums still remain the best place for me.

I'm tired, so I may be rambling a bit. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: why don't y'all, rather than just railing against the mods, come up with some definitive solutions? Consider the logistics...if you suggest locking "worthless" threads, provide some criteria for them. The same goes for "worthless" or "offensive" posts. There needs to be some line; some of you seem to be suggesting that it needs to be concretized. So, with that in mind, what criteria would you place upon it?

And keep in mind that in the end, you are dealing with humans who actually sleep, and don't live off the forums. If just a few of us have a hard time deciding what belongs and what doesn't, how are the mods?

Rob
 

Entity

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
10,090
0
0
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
Actually I just want the administration and moderators to respond to issues raised by users with something other than a locking of the thread because previous threads didn't lead anywhere.

Know what? Forget it. I read the thread in OT about the mods being extreme, and the response seems to me to be that it's not going to change no matter what; there will always be seemingly random locks, bans, deletions, with no set rules and no consistency with the mods. So I'll just shut up once again.

I have felt the EXACT same way for a long time now.

Dear Moderators:

There is a large portion of members here who are fed up with the moderation situation. Having moderators who are able to ban but not able to mail or pm is amazingly thoughtless. I have been banned before, emails did not get responded to, ever. I see people all the time who email the moderators, and they get no replies. I see unfair locks and bans often, yet I see no recourse against the moderators. I have read a response from one of the moderators, basically stating that the mods all communicate with each other and no crazy things are allowed to happen, yet I have seen many and i know many others also have.

Something needs to be done. Every so often, a thread like this comes up in FI, some discussion happens, and then it is locked, as this thread was until Lord Evermore apparently requested it be unlocked. People wonder why the forums are seemingly descending into a cesspool of crap, well I think the answer is that the respectful and intelligent members, who see what is going on, are being ignored. Their opinions are being covered up, locked, and let drop into oblivion, or simply deleted. I would love to see some sort of intervention, discussion, SOMETHING happen, but alas, I fear nothing will change, my opinion, along with everyone else's, will be ignored yet again, and I will become more and more jaded. If it weren't for a handful (literally) of interesting, open minded people in the OS and OT forums, and the fact that I can get good deals in FS/FT, I would have left here long ago.

Now, provided everyone is willing to be reasonable, and make some compromises, what can we do to fix this situation? I genuinely hope someone does do something.
BingBong,

What percentage of locks or bans would you say are unfair (versus the net posts at AT), and never get remedied?

Rob
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Originally posted by: Entity
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
Actually I just want the administration and moderators to respond to issues raised by users with something other than a locking of the thread because previous threads didn't lead anywhere.

Know what? Forget it. I read the thread in OT about the mods being extreme, and the response seems to me to be that it's not going to change no matter what; there will always be seemingly random locks, bans, deletions, with no set rules and no consistency with the mods. So I'll just shut up once again.

I have felt the EXACT same way for a long time now.

Dear Moderators:

There is a large portion of members here who are fed up with the moderation situation. Having moderators who are able to ban but not able to mail or pm is amazingly thoughtless. I have been banned before, emails did not get responded to, ever. I see people all the time who email the moderators, and they get no replies. I see unfair locks and bans often, yet I see no recourse against the moderators. I have read a response from one of the moderators, basically stating that the mods all communicate with each other and no crazy things are allowed to happen, yet I have seen many and i know many others also have.

Something needs to be done. Every so often, a thread like this comes up in FI, some discussion happens, and then it is locked, as this thread was until Lord Evermore apparently requested it be unlocked. People wonder why the forums are seemingly descending into a cesspool of crap, well I think the answer is that the respectful and intelligent members, who see what is going on, are being ignored. Their opinions are being covered up, locked, and let drop into oblivion, or simply deleted. I would love to see some sort of intervention, discussion, SOMETHING happen, but alas, I fear nothing will change, my opinion, along with everyone else's, will be ignored yet again, and I will become more and more jaded. If it weren't for a handful (literally) of interesting, open minded people in the OS and OT forums, and the fact that I can get good deals in FS/FT, I would have left here long ago.

Now, provided everyone is willing to be reasonable, and make some compromises, what can we do to fix this situation? I genuinely hope someone does do something.
BingBong,

What percentage of locks or bans would you say are unfair (versus the net posts at AT), and never get remedied?

Rob

I honestly could not guess if I wanted to. The vast majority get by ok, but the occasional shady lock aggravates me nonetheless, *especially* in FI, where we are supposed to be able to have our voices heard.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Entity and Red Dawn have already summed up the majority of my feelings on the matter.

There are certain issues that come with running a forum of this size. There are more users on AT than there are students/staff/faculty at my university (granted, half of the AT users are one-time posters); the majority of these post in OT. To moderate a forum that has such a constant flow of threads, ideas, communication, insults, etc, takes a great deal of time and patience; that being said, quick judgements are sometimes necessary, for the sake of sanity and civility on the forums. IMO, those decisions aren't always correct, but for the amount of those decisions that get made on a daily basis, the ratio is impressive.

The issue of communication with the moderators is frustrating - different moderators are on at different times (I doubt they run shifts), and apparently have different levels of access. That can make communication with a particular mod difficult, especially if that mod doesn't have access to PM's or email, and pointing out a comment or making a case or argument can be near impossible. I have been temporarily banned before, for a relatively minor comment, but I decided to take it in stride and let it go - the mods have enough to worry about as it is without me neffing it up or cluttering their inboxes. If there is a legitimate complaint for a serious punishment (being permabanned), however, I have seen the majority of cases eventually get handled.

Do I sense some sort of a "decline" in the forums in general or in OT specifically? I'm not sure. I've only been here for a year, but I've seen my share of flame fests, nef threads, trolls, etc... but as far as I can tell, that's fairly standard. I don't see as much activity in the non-OT/GH forums as would be desirable, especially when I have some burning question; I cannot say whether those forums have always been so relatively inactive.

Know what? Forget it. I read the thread in OT about the mods being extreme, and the response seems to me to be that it's not going to change no matter what; there will always be seemingly random locks, bans, deletions, with no set rules and no consistency with the mods. So I'll just shut up once again.

Entity summed up most of my thoughts on this subject. There are some clearly defined rules that no one is allowed to break, and there are less clearly defined situations - these are ones that are handled on a case by case basis, I'm assuming, and where more ambiguous or debatable judgement calls are made. And, as I said a few paragraphs up, there are times where a person will get banned with little or no explanation. When that happens, I have found the best response is to have another forum member bring it up over PM with a mod or to email them personally, being polite and respectful throughout said proceedings, of course.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the "controversial" decisions are rarely made without some form of recourse - discussions among moderators, and between forum members and moderators. Decisions like that are rarely set in stone, and adjustments and corrections can always be made.

There is a large portion of members here who are fed up with the moderation situation. Having moderators who are able to ban but not able to mail or pm is amazingly thoughtless. I have been banned before, emails did not get responded to, ever. I see people all the time who email the moderators, and they get no replies. I see unfair locks and bans often, yet I see no recourse against the moderators. I have read a response from one of the moderators, basically stating that the mods all communicate with each other and no crazy things are allowed to happen, yet I have seen many and i know many others also have.

Not to be an ass (although I do that often enough regardless), but no one is forcing you to stay here. There are procedures set for a reason; as well, if you're polite and reasonable, most situations will get resolved just fine - in my experience. In this case, it would be helpful (to help me personally and others, I'm sure, make a complete informed opinion) - if you provided examples where this has happened.

What have I learned to do? Well, to be honest, I've never had the feeling that I'm "treading on thin ice" here - maybe I'm just too even tempered, or I post by the same rules I live and communicate by. Either way, while users have pissed me off, the forums still remain the best place for me.

This sums it up for me. I have never felt like there is any undue friction between the moderators and I (well, there's some, just look at my sig, ;)). This comes from what I feel is partly just my personality - I try to be as level-headed, even-handed and logical in my conduct as I possibly can. I regard this forum as a social environment - one where people meet, have debates, learn, and grow. I act the same here as I do in my other interactions - generally, I give respect and open myself to other opinions and points of view, and I generally get that in return, both from forum members and the moderators.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,124
779
126
Originally posted by: Entity
Like many of you, I think something should be done. The problem that I have is, well, what?

I don't see a community in decline. I see a community in flux. I've been here for five years now, and while that's not as long as many, it's longer than most; the problems I see AT (most specifically ATOT) dealing with are ones that, IMHO, cannot be resolved. Wanna see what I mean?

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985665

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985659

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985664

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985615
Rob
In reference to your links:
IMHO, 1 and 3 are nef threads and action should be taken against the user. 2, while maybe not the most tasteful, may be a legitimate thread or an attempt at "controversy". 4 While vague at first, is a legitimate OT thread. Of course all threads have the potential to turn into nef fests. I think posters who initiate a nef thread as is obvious in 1 and 3, should have action taken against them. Once 25 people (just throwing a number out there) get the boot, the rest of the posters will start to fall in line.
Bottom line, take action against the obvious nefs and see where it leads.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Originally posted by: Entity
Like many of you, I think something should be done. The problem that I have is, well, what?

I don't see a community in decline. I see a community in flux. I've been here for five years now, and while that's not as long as many, it's longer than most; the problems I see AT (most specifically ATOT) dealing with are ones that, IMHO, cannot be resolved. Wanna see what I mean?

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985665

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985659

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985664

http://subscriber.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=985615
Rob
In reference to your links:
IMHO, 1 and 3 are nef threads and action should be taken against the user. 2, while maybe not the most tasteful, may be a legitimate thread or an attempt at "controversy". 4 While vague at first, is a legitimate OT thread. Of course all threads have the potential to turn into nef fests. I think posters who initiate a nef thread as is obvious in 1 and 3, should have action taken against them. Once 25 people (just throwing a number out there) get the boot, the rest of the posters will start to fall in line.
Bottom line, take action against the obvious nefs and see where it leads.
It will right back here with many saying that the Mods were being to Authoritarian and unfair.

 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,124
779
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
It will right back here with many saying that the Mods were being to Authoritarian and unfair.
Maybe, but there is a rule against neffing. It's just seldom enforced.
EDIT
Yes RD, I have neffed.
My nef thread I did it to try to make a point. The title was "I just won 100,000,000.00 in the Lotto..."

Here's a good example of a nef: 4th post in thread.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
76
Entity: I'm not an administrator or moderator, so I can't get any more DEFINITIVE than my previous post. The users can't make the rules and procedures for the admins, they can only present the issues they have, and it's pretty clear what needs to be done -- how it's done is up to the admins. I don't need to be the one to concretize the "line", I just want there to BE a specified line, that is clearly spelled out in the forum rules and FAQ (the current "help" file is a generic Fusetalk file that isn't even entirely accurate for AT), and EVERYONE needs to be held to that line. I'm not going to complain about what the limits are, I just want to know ahead of time what they are, rather than being told after I get banned or locked.

The issue of moderators sleeping or working on shifts is also important. It's senseless to not have complete coverage, to have periods where a mod isn't on duty, or where he/she is the only one and ends up missing dozens of threads that would be expected to be locked or moved or banned. I still don't accept "they're volunteers" as an argument that they should be given slack. Even volunteers should have standards, and if they can't maintain the standards then they shouldn't be a part of it. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would be willing to act as a limited moderator if there aren't enough people trusted to be full moderators. Perhaps only having the ability to lock threads, which then have to be reviewed by a full moderator the next day. Even people who aren't anonymous limited mods would be great, no need to log in as a separate account to take action, and no anonymous ability to be a prick. It also would provide some oversight from the users themselves -- if one limited mod goes lock crazy, another could be contacted to take care of it.

Just a suggestion. Probably more problematic than helpful.

zakath: I think the issue of communication is worse than you make it out to be. It is not a good thing for moderators to be unable to talk to users, or to be too busy to do so. You think that issues are usually cleared up, but that's not good enough to me. ALL real issues should be addressed, and it shouldn't take a thread posted by someone else in Forum Issues to get a response about it.

The forums that get the most traffic now are FS/FT, Hot Deals, and OT. GH comes in close. OT right now has over 13000 threads, compared to 6800 in FS/FT, the second highest. It didn't used to be that way. GH was heavily trafficked as well as the other forums; but that was before the division of the forums, and before it became super popular. The forums are now used mainly by people who aren't interested in anything about technology, and people trying to sell stuff or get free stuff. There were more useful threads and posts in all the forums when there were only 6000 people registered than there are now with over 100k. GH was once the place to go to get hardware information or help. Now people just don't bother to post because there are so few responses and so much issue over not putting threads in the right forum. I consider all this a decline, but that's a matter of opinion, and I certainly can't expect any action to fix it because I can't imagine what could be done (other than a consolidation of forums).

You mention the clearly defined and not so clearly defined rules. The latter far outweighs the former. The defined rules consist of the standard "no obscenity, no offensive, no abusive, no illegal content", and even that is only available when you first sign up as far as I can find. The undefined rules range all over the place: no "babe" threads, no neffing, don't make rude comments about the moderators (specifically don't call them names like Nazis), no "I B T L" posts, there's no list of words that aren't allowed or a rule about bypassing the filter (and punishment for it isn't uniformly applied). No written rule about needing to make posts "family friendly". There's not even a rule stating you can't sign up a new account when you get banned. Nobody can be aware of some rules until they see it in action, which may end up being when they themselves get locked or banned.

If the moderators and admins agree on certain things, why can't they be codified and made available to users?

I really hate "love it or leave it" replies to complaints and criticism. Nobody's forcing you to read the complaint either. We're not posting to be asses, we're posting to try and make the forums better for everyone.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
76
I don't have a problem with the mods enforcing defined rules. If neffing isn't allowed, lock all nef posts. That's not authoritarian. However locking SOME nef posts is arbitrarily picking and choosing who gets punished; sort of like cops pulling over one person speeding while someone else zooms by. Once the nef posts stop, nobody will even notice that the rule is being enforced.
 

Entity

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
10,090
0
0
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
I don't have a problem with the mods enforcing defined rules. If neffing isn't allowed, lock all nef posts. That's not authoritarian. However locking SOME nef posts is arbitrarily picking and choosing who gets punished; sort of like cops pulling over one person speeding while someone else zooms by. Once the nef posts stop, nobody will even notice that the rule is being enforced.
Good analogy. The problem is this: how many cops do we need to make sure that no one speeds? I still do 85 occasionally...

Rob
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Entity
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
I don't have a problem with the mods enforcing defined rules. If neffing isn't allowed, lock all nef posts. That's not authoritarian. However locking SOME nef posts is arbitrarily picking and choosing who gets punished; sort of like cops pulling over one person speeding while someone else zooms by. Once the nef posts stop, nobody will even notice that the rule is being enforced.
Good analogy. The problem is this: how many cops do we need to make sure that no one speeds? I still do 85 occasionally...

Rob
I can't drive 55!!!:)

 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Are we going to just sit here and speculate until we are blue in the face, or are the mods/admin going to do something?

For the love of god, TALK TO US!
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
76
I AM SO TOTALLY SURPRISED!

Entity: cops cost money. Moderators don't, and moderating is considerably easier a job and less time-consuming. A moderator on the ball can handle dozens of posts inside a few minutes. A cop can maybe handle one speeder.

Still, it's not the users' responsibility to define the way the forums are run. If it's obvious something needs to change, then the administration needs to change it based on input from the users.

But I still expect no changes because it's obvious that the forums get enough traffic despite the problems, so nobody cares about the problems.
 

Entity

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
10,090
0
0
Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
I AM SO TOTALLY SURPRISED!

Entity: cops cost money. Moderators don't, and moderating is considerably easier a job and less time-consuming. A moderator on the ball can handle dozens of posts inside a few minutes. A cop can maybe handle one speeder.

Still, it's not the users' responsibility to define the way the forums are run. If it's obvious something needs to change, then the administration needs to change it based on input from the users.

But I still expect no changes because it's obvious that the forums get enough traffic despite the problems, so nobody cares about the problems.
Perhaps it isn't that the mods don't care, but that they don't see the problem as significant?

You obviously don't care about the forums enough to make definitive suggestions, so perhaps the problem is only exaggerated in your mind? Like I said, I don't see a decline, just things in flux; many users, yourself included, don't like change. While that definitely sucks, it isn't something worthy of a drastic reshaping...like you suggest (adding tons of moderators, having them work like employees rather than volunteers, etc.).

Rob