Modding console legality...

[Randum]

Alright, just because I am thinking about it, apparently it is illegal to do any sort of hardware modification to your own hardware, such as adding fans or modding your optical drive's firmware for...well cause you can.. (few articles in the past on this)

Anyhow, is this illegal if you sell it or just illegal if you are a private party, who say, buys a console, and you decide you have this great idea to increase the cooling- can the feds come bust into your house and put you behind bars!!?!

I have a hard time believing if you buy something and own it you cannot modify it. A good example are cars, how many times do people open those up and mess with what they have? Or how about your computer!! I know most of us here had modded our computers in more ways than one!

Anyone have sources or articles that discuss whats going on with this?
Discuss!

 

[Fingolfin269]

If you put a new cooling system on your box I seriously doubt it is illegal. On the other hand, if you sell this modified system it is probably illegal.

 

[purbeast0]

doing case mods like that are not illegal at all.

it's when you use devices to circumvent copyrights that it becomes that gray area that is deemed illegal.

you can definitely mod your own items with case fans and stuff like that.

 

[Gooberlx2]

You can do whatever you want to your device, and sell it to whomever you please...so long as they know the vendor won't be supporting it since the warranty is voided. As purbeast0 said, it's when you actually USE circumvention techniques to illegally play games, ad they find out about it, that the feds might knock on your door. Hell, you can have the circumvention stuff in the box and it's okay so long as you're buying the games you're playing.

Also, don't expect to be able to use services they provide (xbox live) since they have no way of knowing what and how you've modified your system or for what purpose (simple gamer or evil hacker bent of taking down live via some exploit).

 

[mugs]

:thumbsup: to purbeast0 and Gooberlx2. DMCA makes devices that circumvent copy protection illegal.

 

[tatteredpotato]

Originally posted by: mugs
:thumbsup: to purbeast0 and Gooberlx2. DMCA makes devices that circumvent copy protection illegal.

:thumbsdown: to the DMCA

 

[Randum]

I am interested to see how this evolves over time...

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
You can do whatever you want to your device, and sell it to whomever you please...so long as they know the vendor won't be supporting it since the warranty is voided. As purbeast0 said, it's when you actually USE circumvention techniques to illegally play games, ad they find out about it, that the feds might knock on your door. Hell, you can have the circumvention stuff in the box and it's okay so long as you're buying the games you're playing.

If only that were true. People can and do use modchips to thinks like run XBMC on the XBox or install Linux. In fact, you can install linux using BIOS' that should be legal since they aren't hacked version of the original BIOS nor do they allow copied games to be played. Original XBox modchips often come with such BIOS installed on them. But with the recent raids by ICE on modchip dealers and installers they have apparently decided that such uses no longer matter in their considerations.

 

[kainlongshot]

I dunno but the idea that "one guy ruined it for the rest of us" comes to mind. I look at mod chips and adding more functionality to an expensive game/media device as a good thing. For the record, I have a job and purchase my games so this in no way implies that stealing or playing illegal ISOs are a good thing. However because there are so many people who use such mod chip devices for malicious purposes that ICE has no choice but to apprehend the good along with the bad. It sucks, I think we can agree with, but a moral delemia comes to mind. What is better for the masses?

The same thing can be said about copying games and playing the digital ISO with no cd. Its original intention is to be able to have a digital archive that could be played over and over with no loss while keeping the physical media from harm. Torrents, downloads, etc now exist where instead of buying the media and then making the copy that the buying process is by passed. Hence why we have all this DMCA and rights management crap that floats around.

Honestly I don't think its ever going away, which brings me back to my original statement. Legitimate uses of modding and copying are thrown out the window as soon as we got one or two pirates, no matter how small the minority is. One thing I learned growing up is that trust is very hard to gain and very easy to loose. With the upward trend of tighter security, it is easy to assume that trust is long gone and doubtful we will ever see it again.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
You can do whatever you want to your device, and sell it to whomever you please...so long as they know the vendor won't be supporting it since the warranty is voided. As purbeast0 said, it's when you actually USE circumvention techniques to illegally play games, ad they find out about it, that the feds might knock on your door. Hell, you can have the circumvention stuff in the box and it's okay so long as you're buying the games you're playing.

If only that were true. People can and do use modchips to thinks like run XBMC on the XBox or install Linux. In fact, you can install linux using BIOS' that should be legal since they aren't hacked version of the original BIOS nor do they allow copied games to be played. Original XBox modchips often come with such BIOS installed on them. But with the recent raids by ICE on modchip dealers and installers they have apparently decided that such uses no longer matter in their considerations.

that's not really true, that's still up in the air.

there is nothing illegal about having a modchip on your xbox360 that has the cromwell linux bios installed on it. however you cannot run XBMC with that bios. You need a bios on the chip that will allow you to run unsigned code, which in turn is what is necessary to run pirated games.

so basically the same functionality that lets you run XBMC allows you to circumvent piracy.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
that's not really true, that's still up in the air.

there is nothing illegal about having a modchip on your xbox360 that has the cromwell linux bios installed on it. however you cannot run XBMC with that bios. You need a bios on the chip that will allow you to run unsigned code, which in turn is what is necessary to run pirated games.

so basically the same functionality that lets you run XBMC allows you to circumvent piracy.

We'll see. ICE still raided chip dealers even though chips typically come with a perfectly legal BIOS installed. Maybe the ones that weren't putting illegal BIOS' on the chips will get off, but I have my doubts. I think they'll ignore that aspect and simply claim that their "primary" use is copy protection circumvention which will then make them illegal under that POS DMCA.

And, yeah, I'm perfectly aware that XBMC requires one of the hacked BIOS', I was just making the point that there are people that do things other than play illegal games. Now I'm not going to deny that that's what most people do with them, but I fail to see how they can go after dealers and installers (unless said dealers are also installing games). It just smacks of a waste of tax payer money, abuse of power, and an example of the overreaching authority of the DMCA.

 

[purbeast0]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: purbeast0
that's not really true, that's still up in the air.

there is nothing illegal about having a modchip on your xbox360 that has the cromwell linux bios installed on it. however you cannot run XBMC with that bios. You need a bios on the chip that will allow you to run unsigned code, which in turn is what is necessary to run pirated games.

so basically the same functionality that lets you run XBMC allows you to circumvent piracy.

We'll see. ICE still raided chip dealers even though chips typically come with a perfectly legal BIOS installed. Maybe the ones that weren't putting illegal BIOS' on the chips will get off, but I have my doubts. I think they'll ignore that aspect and simply claim that their "primary" use is copy protection circumvention which will then make them illegal under that POS DMCA.

And, yeah, I'm perfectly aware that XBMC requires one of the hacked BIOS', I was just making the point that there are people that do things other than play illegal games. Now I'm not going to deny that that's what most people do with them, but I fail to see how they can go after dealers and installers (unless said dealers are also installing games). It just smacks of a waste of tax payer money, abuse of power, and an example of the overreaching authority of the DMCA.

Heh I know the owner of one of the biggest modchip store in the USA, and he got raided by the feds. They took EVERYTHING from him that they thought had to do with "modding." I'm talking they took casings, decals, intercoolers, protective gear for consoles ... EVERYTHING that they could take as "modding." They took tons of customers systems that were soley in for repair and nothing else.

ICE had no clue what they were even looking for. But now he said he got some letter from them saying basically they are keeping his stuff and he'll have to go to court in order to get it. And we're talking $30K worth of stuff here.

And he told me, he had probably 50 modchips taken from him.

So I'm sure there is going to be some screwed up rule that comes out of all of this, especially since ICE has no freaking clue what they are even looking for.

EDIT:

and I agree with you %100 that it's a huge waste of time/money. cause as we all know, the amount that is claimed to be "lost" to piracy is not even remotly close to the actual number.

 

[RaiderJ]

The argument that a modchip's primary use is copyright infringement has not been tested in court. Same argument was at one point leveled at VCRs, CD/DVD burners, and other such things.

When you have Feds knocking at your door, however, it doesn't really matter. As from the post above, you have to prove your innocence or they take your stuff.