MMOs/MMORPGs and Twitch or realistic/semi-realistic gameplay

[maniacalpha1-1]

Like I said, you should play Gothic 3 (with community patch) and Risen 1. Both have a system like this. It is a lot more brutal, and can be frustrating as you learn the timing, but blocking and dodging are 100% damage reductions.

Now in real life, a person hitting a shield may not do harm, but it can wear you out. The above 2 games, written by the same dev's, drains your stamina when you are hit while blocking, and when you lose your stamina, you don't block. In other games, they don't use stamina that way, and just have you get worn down by your health bar. A health bar isn't realistic either. It is just a way to visualize how you are doing in the battle.

Well, was really thinking of MMOs but wishlisted those two - will grab in a future Steam sale so I can check them out.

I wouldn't be looking for true realism, I never minded health bars.

That said, if an MMO was made like this, what kind of changes to the MMORPG design could be made to accomodate it? The ability to respawn quickly and close nearby, for example?

 

[bystander36]

Well, was really thinking of MMOs but wishlisted those two - will grab in a future Steam sale so I can check them out.

I wouldn't be looking for true realism, I never minded health bars.

That said, if an MMO was made like this, what kind of changes to the MMORPG design could be made to accomodate it? The ability to respawn quickly and close nearby, for example?

Gothic 3/Risen 1's system couldn't work in an MMO. Latency would give far too much of an advantage to those with better connections.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Gothic 3/Risen 1's system couldn't work in an MMO. Latency would give far too much of an advantage to those with better connections.

In a PvE game or were you thinking of PvP? For the purposes of this discussion I only had PvE in mind, though I absolutely do prefer PvP. And open PvP, too, none of this PvP only in arenas or battle islands stuff.

 

[bystander36]

In a PvE game or were you thinking of PvP? For the purposes of this discussion I only had PvE in mind, though I absolutely do prefer PvP. And open PvP, too, none of this PvP only in arenas or battle islands stuff.

For PvE, it can work to some degree. It would completely punish people with poor connections, where as the current systems usually avoid much of the problems of a latency issue.

Age of Conan had some timing stuff if I recall. You could try that.

 

[asteldian]

I guess I'm talking about two different things, without a clear delineation between them.

My primary focus is how hits are detected; eif someone walks up to you, hits their attack button, but their sword hits your shield, you won't be harmed. Or if you hold your own sword up and block it. Or if they do hit your armor, but it's only a light slash, then your armor's probably going to absorb that too. Compare that to typical MMORPG combat, where you could punch someone bare-fisted in full plate armor and the combat system will still let you do damage to them, because armor and weapons/fists just don't work in a realistic fashion. (ignore the possibility that you are a monk class where you actually have the ability to punch through armor)

TTK (time to kill, i.e. are there one hit kills or what) is a secondary issue. Of course it's not fun to be one hit killed, but if someone had to beat your shield out of your hand and then you get one hit killed, it's not the same as someone walking up to you and killing you in one swipe.

Well, in ESO it is like so:
You aim the Crosshair at your opponent (only needs to be roughly in that direction, this is no FPS) you then attack with weapon (either using a skill or doing a light or heavy attack - there is no auto attack in the game). If the defender does nothing to react, the damage is mitigated only by his armor (up to 50% if full on kitted out as a tank...very unlikely in PvP as you sacrifice a lot for that)
If the target reacts and holds up his block, he then loses stamina but reduces the damage by 50% (less stamina is spent and more damage is reduced if using an actual shield) it is then further reduced by the actual armor mitigation. Alternatively they could roll to Dodge, this would use up a larger portion of Stamina but result in no damage taken.

Damage of skills, light attacks etc. are all dictated by 'Weapon Damage' or 'Spell Damage' and to a lesser extent, your maximum resource pools. So, someone attempting to hit an oppoenent with their fists would do ignorable damage because an actual weapon provides a large portion of weapon/spell damage, if the opponent also blocked, it would be so low your natural regen would likely heal over it.

It is not as complex as what you are looking for, though likely as complex as you will likely see - there is no active 'removing the shield to stab your opponent' however, the effect can be similar - an opponent that blocks can only do so while he has Stamina, so rapid attacks will drain his stamina and once he gets low you can use hard hitting attacks to take them down. Alternatively, you can use various CC effects to attempt to prevent them from blocking (such as Fear, Stuns etc.) it takes time for them to Break Free of such effects which leaves them vulnerable, even better, Breaking Free costs a lot of Stamina which results in them running down faster.

Depending on build, an unsuspecting player can be taken down within two hits when surprised from stealth, on the flipside a fight could take several minutes if the players are skilled. So TTK can go from instant to long depending on build set ups and player skill.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Hm, I might have to give this a try, but I know a lot of people didn't like the game. I've forgotten why though; how's the game as an MMORPG aside from combat mechanics themselves?

 

[asteldian]

Well, I play so am clearly biased. Ther are certainly flaws with the game, though for me personally any issues I have are related to performance as they need to tidy up their code a bit as opposed to actual gameplay issues.

As an MMO I have enjoyed it, PvE wise I found it was the first MMO in many years that I actually enjoyed reading and doing quests as opposed to simply doing them as a means to progress. End game is a bit light if you are a hardcore PvE MMOer, but I find between the dungeons, Trials and massive PvP I am satisfied so far.

But, others will tell you it is the worst piece of shit they have ever played. Such is the way of MMOs

A lot of hate was related to the fact it was a subscription game, now that it is Buy 2 Play it seems to be a lot less despised.
One of the more up to date reviews is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csY7RYF4rKQ

A pretty fair review mentioning the good and bad.

 

[therealnickdanger]

The more RPGs and MMOs I try, the more I've been able to establish that I'm a bigger fan of what I call "direct input" games (not Microsoft Direct Input).

Direct Input: you control when to physically dodge an attack, build up combos, a truly hit-on-click gameplay experience, manual aiming for headshots, etc.

Indirect Input: D&D rules, combat relies purely on RNG mechanics. If you didn't equip your character with that one item that grants 2% dodge bonus, you'll probably run out of potions and die.

For some of the reasons listed in this thread, I find the free-to-play Action MMORPG Marvel Heroes very satisfying. You choose your skills and gear, tweak said skills and gear, then rely upon direct input mechanics (movement, timing, aiming, etc.) to achieve the best damage or survival for any given fight. There's still RNG to factor in damage, critical and brutal strikes, dodge/deflect, but you still have to keep moving choose your targets manually. I also like the game because I always enjoyed the X-Men Legends and Marvel Ultimate Alliance ARPGs. It's also got a great F2P model that is truly free. Some of the high-level stuff is super frickin' hard.