Mitch McConjob - plans tax reform with just GOP votes.

[agent00f]

Why would I have to work a job to evaluate it? That's ridiculous. It's obvious on the face of it. Everyone gets the same pay! Many jobs only require a ~30 on ASVAB to perform efficiently with firewall 5s. Even at the top, like Navy Nukes, the schooling is nowhere near an engineering program at university. The differences between private and government compensation is a phenomena found around the world. Some countries are far worse (e.g. Brazil).

The Pentagon's Business Board recommendations are far more cutting than what Congress is willing to do. This below doesn't even include special pays, enlistment bonuses, and the backend.

So you're only out to sea for about 10 years, and get special pays making it about six figures? Why should someone get paid so much for watch, btw?



Let's see

A portion of those getting out seek jobs in government, contracting, and other jobs where only the viable path is through military (e.g. because of training you can't get elsewhere or benefits of having sec clearance), and they get priority on the government jobs.

It's also stupid easy to make it to 20. Much easier than a lot of alternative in the private sector that give comparable cempensation. If you're trying to make it to 20 and don't, you would have undoubtedly done worse in the private sector.

But there's no point to your argument because they are ignorant of its value. In the private sector, employers know it's stupid to compensate with backend, since for one, people don't appreciate it.



WTH? In private sector, to make decent money, most jobs require university. Many don't graduate in 4 yrs, suffer from underemployment, or don't complete degree due to financial or academic reasons. Most jobs paying well in private sector require academically demanding degrees that have high washout rates and even when completed, it's not a guarantee. Engineers are a great example of that. Yeah, let's talk about risk. If you look at the military personnel who use G.I., their numbers are even worse and they go even more so for softer degrees.

I can also think of jobs with worse conditions/compensation than most military jobs like trucker. Many in the military wouldn't have joined the military if they knew they would be a trucker. In Air Force and others, you know in advance which job position or category you're being placed in.



LOL That's bull****. If a war started, they would still keep their civilian-like job. The government would reach for it's infantry and volunteer buffer first and then if need be, get 20-somethings drafted to be cannon fodder just like in Vietnam.



That's BS. Many are disqualified at MEPS and then even at basic training for medical reasons other than obesity. And let's just count obesity. It's nice cutting the competition for jobs like pharm tech, tool crib, etc. over things with a weak link to job performance/hazard like obesity.

In all fairness centrist democrats gotta shill for marginal white welfare votes too to beat the klan party.

 

[fskimospy]

Why would I have to work a job to evaluate it? That's ridiculous. It's obvious on the face of it. Everyone gets the same pay! Many jobs only require a ~30 on ASVAB to perform efficiently with firewall 5s. Even at the top, like Navy Nukes, the schooling is nowhere near an engineering program at university. The differences between private and government compensation is a phenomena found around the world. Some countries are far worse (e.g. Brazil).

The Pentagon's Business Board recommendations are far more cutting than what Congress is willing to do. This below doesn't even include special pays, enlistment bonuses, and the backend.

Funny how you addressed literally none of my substantive criticisms of what you said.

Not that I'm surprised, as your general MO is when you find out you're talking about things you don't understand is to repeat yourself more loudly and more stupidly.

So you're only out to sea for about 10 years, and get special pays making it about six figures? Why should someone get paid so much for watch, btw?

Enlisted with 10 years in are not making 6 figures on average. As for how much someone should be paid for standing the watch you wouldn't know because you've never done it.

Duh.

Let's see

A portion of those getting out seek jobs in government, contracting, and other jobs where only the viable path is through military (e.g. because of training you can't get elsewhere or benefits of having sec clearance), and they get priority on the government jobs.

It's also stupid easy to make it to 20. Much easier than a lot of alternative in the private sector that give comparable cempensation. If you're trying to make it to 20 and don't, you would have undoubtedly done worse in the private sector.

So your response to having your ignorance exposed is just to keep ranting and making things up.

That which is asserted with evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Dismissed.

But there's no point to your argument because they are ignorant of its value. In the private sector, employers know it's stupid to compensate with backend, since for one, people don't appreciate it.

False, the research on retirement benefits is that they do not provide retention value commensurate with their cost, not that people aren't aware of it. This also has nothing to do with your original argument, it's just more wild ranting.

WTH? In private sector, to make decent money, most jobs require university. Many don't graduate in 4 yrs, suffer from underemployment, or don't complete degree due to financial or academic reasons. Most jobs paying well in private sector require academically demanding degrees that have high washout rates and even when completed, it's not a guarantee. Engineers are a great example of that. Yeah, let's talk about risk. If you look at the military personnel who use G.I., their numbers are even worse and they go even more so for softer degrees.

I can also think of jobs with worse conditions/compensation than most military jobs like trucker. Many in the military wouldn't have joined the military if they knew they would be a trucker. In Air Force and others, you know in advance which job position or category you're being placed in.

EDIT: The VAST majority of jobs in military have ZERO mortality risks. Most of them are civilian-like.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm someone who has a great deal of firsthand experience about this but instead of learning something you want to tell me how it is.

You're embarrassing yourself.

LOL That's bull****. If a war started, they would still keep their civilian-like job. The government would reach for it's infantry and volunteer buffer first and then if need be, get 20-somethings drafted to be cannon fodder just like in Vietnam.

That's BS. Many are disqualified at MEPS and then even at basic training for medical reasons other than obesity. And let's just count obesity. It's nice cutting the competition for jobs like pharm tech, tool crib, etc. over things with a weak link to job performance/hazard like obesity.

Have you ever been to MEPS or basic training?

Lol.

 

[agent00f]

Funny how you addressed literally none of my substantive criticisms of what you said.

Not that I'm surprised, as your general MO is when you find out you're talking about things you don't understand is to repeat yourself more loudly and more stupidly.




Enlisted with 10 years in are not making 6 figures on average. As for how much someone should be paid for standing the watch you wouldn't know because you've never done it.

Duh.



So your response to having your ignorance exposed is just to keep ranting and making things up.

That which is asserted with evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Dismissed.



False, the research on retirement benefits is that they do not provide retention value commensurate with their cost, not that people aren't aware of it. This also has nothing to do with your original argument, it's just more wild ranting.



You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm someone who has a great deal of firsthand experience about this but instead of learning something you want to tell me how it is.

You're embarrassing yourself.



Have you ever been to MEPS or basic training?

Lol.

To get an idea of how successful these D hawks are and some notion of military personnel competence, veterans voted 2:1 for trump.

 

[Maxima1]

Funny how you addressed literally none of my substantive criticisms of what you said.

Not that I'm surprised, as your general MO is when you find out you're talking about things you don't understand is to repeat yourself more loudly and more stupidly.

lol Your go-to argument is always to just dismiss or feign that you don't understand my points.

Enlisted with 10 years in are not making 6 figures on average.

You brought up Navy and the inconvenience of being out at sea. They get sub and ship pay that push it to six figures. A better argument for your sake would have been Air Force maintenance. No special pays for more time.

As for how much someone should be paid for standing the watch you wouldn't know because you've never done it.

Duh.

Like as that's a guide for anything. You can easily retain enough according to the Pentagon Business Board otherwise they wouldn't suggest drastic cuts.

So your response to having your ignorance exposed is just to keep ranting and making things up.

How am i making things up? Military gets preference for gov jobs and go for them (firefighter, cop, etc.). You can raise your pay $10-15k just for holding sec clearance. All tied to government basically subsidizing them.

See, you just say things are wrong without actually addressing what I said. I just exposed your asinine argument that was seemingly trying to argue that since everyone doesn't get retirement, it must mean they can't be overpaid.

Another one I'd add is that many getting out early get out because they secured a lifetime payment through the "disability" system.

False, the research on retirement benefits is that they do not provide retention value commensurate with their cost, not that people aren't aware of it.

And I had said they don't appreciate it, so that was MY point as well.

Dude, I've seen people in the military who know NOTHING about what their retirement would be in the range of even at the end of their careers. When McCain said $1.8 million, they thought bull****, but any military retirement calc will suggest this is the case with COLAs (another benefit no private company would give).

Also, these are the same retards that argue that BAH, BAS, etc. don't count and they are only working for their base pay. Go look at the net. That's a common argument.

This also has nothing to do with your original argument, it's just more wild ranting.

How isn't a part of my argument? I mentioned retirement at the beginning. It's just like teachers complaining about pay, but they don't compare apples to apples, since they ALWAYS leave out retirement comparisons.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm someone who has a great deal of firsthand experience about this but instead of learning something you want to tell me how it is.

You're embarrassing yourself.

Blah blah blah. If enlisted tried going through university, they would fail even harder than the general college pop already does. And of course, you just skirt any discussion again.

Have you ever been to MEPS or basic training?

Lol.

lol Some argument. You realize a lot of people go through Ship 5 because of separation due to medical?

 

[Jhhnn]

Spending on veterans, particularly pensions, is a direct subsidy to the middle class. We need more of that, not less, and we need to go to where the money is to do it.

Mitch & the Repubs intend to take it the other way, of course, because taxes are for the little people.

 

[fskimospy]

lol Your go-to argument is always to just dismiss or feign that you don't understand my points.

No, I address your points and then you start ranting like a child.

You brought up Navy and the inconvenience of being out at sea. They get sub and ship pay that push it to six figures. A better argument for your sake would have been Air Force maintenance. No special pays for more time.

Sea pay? Even now you end up getting like $500 or $600 a month and that's after spending ten years at sea, not ten years in the service. Sea pay is shit for what you have to do, which is work insane hours in port and then routinely go out to sea where you are effectively working 24/7.

No one who had ever actually done it would call it an 'inconvenience', it literally defines your life. For the civilian equivalent go look up the merchant marines and see what they make.

Like as that's a guide for anything. You can easily retain enough according to the Pentagon Business Board otherwise they wouldn't suggest drastic cuts.

How am i making things up? Military gets preference for gov jobs and go for them (firefighter, cop, etc.). You can raise your pay $10-15k just for holding sec clearance. All tied to government basically subsidizing them.

See, you just say things are wrong without actually addressing what I said. I just exposed your asinine argument that was seemingly trying to argue that since everyone doesn't get retirement, it must mean they can't be overpaid.

Another one I'd add is that many getting out early get out because they secured a lifetime payment through the "disability" system.

By all means quote me what percentage of enlistees get a disability payment and what the average payment is. 🙂

And I had said they don't appreciate it, so that was MY point as well.

Dude, I've seen people in the military who know NOTHING about what their retirement would be in the range of even at the end of their careers. When McCain said $1.8 million, they thought bull****, but any military retirement calc will suggest this is the case with COLAs (another benefit no private company would give).

Also, these are the same retards that argue that BAH, BAS, etc. don't count and they are only working for their base pay. Go look at the net. That's a common argument.

If 'I saw someone say something stupid on the internet' were a basis for argument you would be a gold mine.

Considering you keep calling college 'university' I personally doubt you are American and I doubt you know many, if any American servicemen.

How isn't a part of my argument? I mentioned retirement at the beginning. It's just like teachers complaining about pay, but they don't compare apples to apples, since they ALWAYS leave out retirement comparisons.

Because how much servicemen value something has nothing to do with if they are overpaid or not.

How hard is that to understand? This is easy stuff.

Blah blah blah. If enlisted tried going through university, they would fail even harder than the general college pop already does. And of course, you just skirt any discussion again.

Unfounded ranting.

lol Some argument. You realize a lot of people go through Ship 5 because of separation due to medical?

Lol. Look who is furiously googling American military stuff. Why not learn something instead of continuing to flail like this?

As someone who has actually been to boot camp, yes. Let me know what percentage of recruits you think do that. 😉

 

[Maxima1]

No, I address your points and then you start ranting like a child.

"Meh, sort of. You get paid very well in the military for work that only requires a high school diploma but you also get deployed for six months to a year at a time where you're basically at work 24/7. Depending on your branch and duty station you also usually have either one or two days a week where you're at work 24/7 even while you aren't deployed."

This was what you said originally. You didn't address what I said. You just say some people do long hours in military and get deployed I addressed this by telling you that there is special pays and/or tax benefits. This isn't always the case, but you don't have to be completely disingenuous about it and leaving out everyone who doesn't work 12's. You might as well add 1 hr commute if we compare ship/sub pay as well, since that's generally what people spend each day going to their job.

Sea pay? Even now you end up getting like $500 or $600 a month and that's after spending ten years at sea, not ten years in the service. Sea pay is shit for what you have to do, which is work insane hours in port and then routinely go out to sea where you are effectively working 24/7.

A lot of ports will boost BAH as well. It's easy to see it reaching about $90k in 8 years (kind of like four when you consider they didn't have to go to college).

Your insane hours thing is just skirting the facts. Many others get the same benefits, do 8 hours (or has a job that gets effectively done prior to 8 hours) and get paid for PT along with requiring less competence (even 70ish on ASVAB is bad). So how are they not overpaid? .A lot of people make **** per hour and can't even come near military even if the hours were allotted. Many professionals work over 40 salaried and aren't eligible for overtime pay. Even if I took your argument, it's laughable when you consider the retirement at the end. Even if you were 16 hours a day, you still did far less than many people in the private sector.

No one who had ever actually done it would call it an 'inconvenience', it literally defines your life.

Others love it. What's with you and individual fit? Do you think since women generally wouldn't like being a cop that somehow means they are underpaid despite police departments getting thousands of applications for a few spots?

For the civilian equivalent go look up the merchant marines and see what they make.

How does some obscure job with a narrow education pipeline prove anything? You probably think the amount longshoreman get also "proves" something.

The fact is that the government spends more than necessary on them. The private sector wouldn't do this.

By all means quote me what percentage of enlistees get a disability payment and what the average payment is. 🙂

https://thinkprogress.org/almost-half-of-new-veterans-seek-disability-compensation-a86b24d96ab5/

Even 10% of base pay is a lot and many get up to 100% despite being able-bodied. They go on to have jobs, socialize, whatever,.You wouldn't know anything was wrong. It's way more generous than SSDI and workman's comp.

Considering you keep calling college 'university' I personally doubt you are American and I doubt you know many, if any American servicemen.

I specifically said university to indicate 4-year. Average for community college is less.

Because how much servicemen value something has nothing to do with if they are overpaid or not.

The government doles it out because it's a interest group and they can because they can always pay or tax others if inflation heats up. In private sector, if you don't care, guess what? It's gone. It's one reason why sales gets a lot because they care about money more while engineers don't. You just illustrate how free market and government is different.

If we want it to run more like private sector, you can start by getting rid of the pension system and put them on contributions plans with paltry matches like everyone else. Any issue with recruitment can be dealt with by dangling reenlistment bonuses. As is, many blue collar jobs have large shortages, yet compensation growth is weak. It was a big laugh when Rubio mentioned welders because the average pay is nothing to write home about.

Unfounded ranting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...tudent-veteran-graduation-rate-so-low/523779/

"Several fields of study were particularly popular among veterans. At the associate-degree level, the most common were in liberal arts and sciences, business, homeland security, law enforcement and health professions, according to the report. The top five bachelor's degree programs were business, social sciences, homeland security, law enforcement and computer and information sciences."

Lol. Look who is furiously googling American military stuff. Why not learn something instead of continuing to flail like this?

As someone who has actually been to boot camp, yes. Let me know what percentage of recruits you think do that. 😉

What do you think P days are for? About ~90% get past boot camp. A lot of those who don't are for medical reasons. Even cop programs aren't as stringent with some of these things, yet it is more relevant to that job than many military positions. Funny though when the **** really hits the fan, they'll start taking convicts and ****.

 

[Maxima1]

Spending on veterans, particularly pensions, is a direct subsidy to the middle class. We need more of that, not less, and we need to go to where the money is to do it.

Mitch & the Repubs intend to take it the other way, of course, because taxes are for the little people.

We don't need government catering to certain special interests, and that's what both parties do. It's why Republicans generally defend cops, military and firefighters, but incessantly bash teachers.

 

[Jhhnn]

We don't need government catering to certain special interests, and that's what both parties do. It's why Republicans generally defend cops, military and firefighters, but incessantly bash teachers.

I'm not bashing anybody.

And "Both sides!", obviously

 

[Maxima1]

I'm not bashing anybody.

And "Both sides!", obviously

I understand. The bit about bashing was meant for my example of R's looking the other way for cops and other groups that prefer GOP while complaining about teacher pay.

I don't see why we need more of that (i.e. favoring certain groups for political reasons) was my point to you. It's like how mortgage interest deduction benefits homeowners over renters, yet renters already have to contend with monopoly pricing do to the supply of land being fixed.

 

[brycejones]

Funny how a certain non American's (maxima1) arguement seems to be boil down to someone is doing well so we must screw them over so everyone is equally stuck in the hole.

Maxima1 you use word choices repeatedly that are not consistent with how Americans use the English language.

But hey rant away since it matters to you for some reason.

 

[fskimospy]

"Meh, sort of. You get paid very well in the military for work that only requires a high school diploma but you also get deployed for six months to a year at a time where you're basically at work 24/7. Depending on your branch and duty station you also usually have either one or two days a week where you're at work 24/7 even while you aren't deployed."

This was what you said originally. You didn't address what I said. You just say some people do long hours in military and get deployed I addressed this by telling you that there is special pays and/or tax benefits. This isn't always the case, but you don't have to be completely disingenuous about it and leaving out everyone who doesn't work 12's. You might as well add 1 hr commute if we compare ship/sub pay as well, since that's generally what people spend each day going to their job.

Exactly, you complained they were overpaid without taking into account obvious parts of the job. When informed of this you resorted to generalized ranting about something you didn't understand. When corrected instead of admitting fault you just kept ranting.

A lot of ports will boost BAH as well. It's easy to see it reaching about $90k in 8 years (kind of like four when you consider they didn't have to go to college).

Ports do not 'boost' BAH, it is based on the local cost of housing. It is one of the principal reasons why you start being paid well at E-5, as below E-5 (at least when I was in) you had to be married to get it and then your housing costs were often much higher.

Your insane hours thing is just skirting the facts. Many others get the same benefits, do 8 hours (or has a job that gets effectively done prior to 8 hours) and get paid for PT along with requiring less competence (even 70ish on ASVAB is bad). So how are they not overpaid? .A lot of people make **** per hour and can't even come near military even if the hours were allotted. Many professionals work over 40 salaried and aren't eligible for overtime pay. Even if I took your argument, it's laughable when you consider the retirement at the end. Even if you were 16 hours a day, you still did far less than many people in the private sector.

So in response to firsthand statements of direct experience you just make a bunch of unfounded rants about what 'many' do. Dismissed without evidence.

Others love it. What's with you and individual fit? Do you think since women generally wouldn't like being a cop that somehow means they are underpaid despite police departments getting thousands of applications for a few spots?

If people like it or not is irrelevant. Some people like being at the office 80 hours a week but their likes have no bearing on appropriate compensation.

How does some obscure job with a narrow education pipeline prove anything? You probably think the amount longshoreman get also "proves" something.

The fact is that the government spends more than necessary on them. The private sector wouldn't do this.

There is no analogous private sector entity so it's impossible to say that. Dismissed without evidence.

https://thinkprogress.org/almost-half-of-new-veterans-seek-disability-compensation-a86b24d96ab5/

Even 10% of base pay is a lot and many get up to 100% despite being able-bodied. They go on to have jobs, socialize, whatever,.You wouldn't know anything was wrong. It's way more generous than SSDI and workman's comp.

SEEKING is not GETTING. About 10% of veterans have a disability rating of more than 20% and no, 20% of base pay is not a lot.

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

Base pay for an E-5 at 4+ years is $2669, making 20% of their base pay a whopping $6k a year or so. WHAT A GRAVY TRAIN.

https://www.navycs.com/charts/2017-military-pay-chart.html

I specifically said university to indicate 4-year. Average for community college is less.

This is not how Americans talk. I find it unlikely you are American or have any experience with the American military.

Where are you actually from?

The government doles it out because it's a interest group and they can because they can always pay or tax others if inflation heats up. In private sector, if you don't care, guess what? It's gone. It's one reason why sales gets a lot because they care about money more while engineers don't. You just illustrate how free market and government is different.

If we want it to run more like private sector, you can start by getting rid of the pension system and put them on contributions plans with paltry matches like everyone else. Any issue with recruitment can be dealt with by dangling reenlistment bonuses. As is, many blue collar jobs have large shortages, yet compensation growth is weak. It was a big laugh when Rubio mentioned welders because the average pay is nothing to write home about.

So military members simultaneously don't know the pension exists but are an interest group defending their retirement benefits? Interesting. Lol.

What do you think P days are for? About ~90% get past boot camp. A lot of those who don't are for medical reasons. Even cop programs aren't as stringent with some of these things, yet it is more relevant to that job than many military positions. Funny though when the **** really hits the fan, they'll start taking convicts and ****.

I know what P days or for because unlike you, I've actually done them. They are for inprocessing and they are extremely boring. Getting your uniforms, being formed into your division, etc, etc. The people in my division who didn't make it through P days got the boot for popping positive on the drug test, not because P days identified a medical problem. You are usually disqualified for medical reasons before you get there, not during P days. That's what the MEPS physical is for.

It is amusing to watch you furiously google Navy terms and then try to tell someone who actually did all these things what they mean.

 

[IronWing]

I understand. The bit about bashing was meant for my example of R's looking the other way for cops and other groups that prefer GOP while complaining about teacher pay.

I don't see why we need more of that (i.e. favoring certain groups for political reasons) was my point to you. It's like how mortgage interest deduction benefits homeowners over renters, yet renters already have to contend with monopoly pricing do to the supply of land being fixed.

The federal civilian pension system was overhauled in 1986. Stockman was addressing a different system than is in place today.

 

[Maxima1]

Exactly, you complained they were overpaid without taking into account obvious parts of the job. When informed of this you resorted to generalized ranting about something you didn't understand. When corrected instead of admitting fault you just kept ranting.

You didn't inform me of squat. Instead, you just go on arguing stupid that just because someone works 12's or gets deployed (the vast majority being outside Afghanistan/Iraq) doing 12's-16's that they deserve the pay and retirement. Why should doing watch or jobs that don't require much skill or competence get you close to six figures and a $1.8 mil pension? I can think of many jobs where even if you were afforded 12s, you can't come close.Someone who is a social worker in private sector effectively has to work double as enlisted. You know what's funny? A social worker in the military gets officer pay and benefits. Do you know what they do? They coddle and console enlisted. lol

Ports do not 'boost' BAH, it is based on the local cost of housing. It is one of the principal reasons why you start being paid well at E-5, as below E-5 (at least when I was in) you had to be married to get it and then your housing costs were often much higher.

lol You get off-base housing very quickly, and you're complaining? And of course it's based on local housing, but the point was that Navy ports generally helps along with the special pays I mentioned to boost their compensation to almost six figures. The one going on stupid rants is you.

So in response to firsthand statements of direct experience you just make a bunch of unfounded rants about what 'many' do. Dismissed without evidence.

Dude, your anecdotes are worth little. You've tried to pull BS such as mortality rates when for the vast majority it's zero and a whole bunch of other crapola, and somehow I'm suppose to take you as a credible source or without bias.

If people like it or not is irrelevant. Some people like being at the office 80 hours a week but their likes have no bearing on appropriate compensation.

Appropriate compensation is based on supply and demand in private sector. Guess what? Military isn't based on it. Why would I take your anecdotes over Pentagon Business Board?

There is no analogous private sector entity so it's impossible to say that. Dismissed without evidence.

You're just playing stupid. Most jobs in military aren't combat related. Everyone gets same pay. I've also given the example of trucker as a job with worse conditions than many in military. You can add others like mud loggers.

https://www.airforce.com/careers/detail/services

lol 29 days of technical training and there's whole lot more where that came from. Yeah, they totally deserve those inflated benefits and outrageous pension benefits at the end.

SEEKING is not GETTING. About 10% of veterans have a disability rating of more than 20% and no, 20% of base pay is not a lot.

Average is $13k. This is likely skewed underestimating the current veterans as well, since other veterans of past wars are not aligned with today's in consideration of disability ratings.

"In 2000, only 9 percent of veterans drew disability compensation and the average yearly payment, in 2014 dollars, was $8,100. Today 16 percent of veterans receive disability pay and it averages $13,000. CBO says the jump reflects a rise in number and severity of rated ailments, especially for two eras of vets, those who served during Vietnam and the first Gulf War."

Base pay for an E-5 at 4+ years is $2669, making 20% of their base pay a whopping $6k a year or so. WHAT A GRAVY TRAIN.

lol It's for doing nothing and it's a life time payment for a 20-something. It's much better than food stamps. At 100% rating, that's well above $1 million dollars, and this is for nonsense like sleep apnea, exercise-induced asthma, "PTSD" etc.

This is not how Americans talk. I find it unlikely you are American or have any experience with the American military.

Where are you actually from?

lol I was obviously using it as a distinction to community colleges. People use school, college, and university here. Get over it!

I'm from the US in SoCal. You really love to just assume.

So military members simultaneously don't know the pension exists but are an interest group defending their retirement benefits? Interesting. Lol.

lol What a stupid argument. Obviously there are retirees and any idiot knows to defend if Congress moves to change it (You don't actually have to know the amount).

They also don't understand BAH, BAS, and base pay. Many veterans or current active duty will only mention base pay as their pay. Of course, I know many of them are just being disingenuous.

I know what P days or for because unlike you, I've actually done them. They are for inprocessing and they are extremely boring. Getting your uniforms, being formed into your division, etc, etc. The people in my division who didn't make it through P days got the boot for popping positive on the drug test, not because P days identified a medical problem. You are usually disqualified for medical reasons before you get there, not during P days. That's what the MEPS physical is for.

lol They do medical tests once you get there. That's not where all the erroneous entries and other separations come from, but it is a part of it.

"Before your formal training can begin at Recruit Training Command, you will undergo further medical, dental and administrative screenings."

http://www.bootcamp.navy.mil/p_days.html

It is amusing to watch you furiously google Navy terms and then try to tell someone who actually did all these things what they mean.

What's amusing is that I know even more than you. These terms you should be familiar with, though: nonner and ROAD.lol

Nonner is a Non-sortie generating troop. all but Fliers and flightline workers. If your shop closes for training or lunch, you might be a nonner

http://www.jba.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/337903/retired-on-active-duty/

The federal civilian pension system was overhauled in 1986. Stockman was addressing a different system than is in place today.

Yeah, it has, but that's not the point I was going for by posting that. Military compensation has also gotten even better relative to Reagan's time.

 

[fskimospy]

You didn't inform me of squat. Instead, you just go on arguing stupid that just because someone works 12's or gets deployed (the vast majority being outside Afghanistan/Iraq) doing 12's-16's that they deserve the pay and retirement. Why should doing watch or jobs that don't require much skill or competence get you close to six figures and a $1.8 mil pension? I can think of many jobs where even if you were afforded 12s, you can't come close.Someone who is a social worker in private sector effectively has to work double as enlisted. You know what's funny? A social worker in the military gets officer pay and benefits. Do you know what they do? They coddle and console enlisted. lol

So in other words your response to obvious flaws in your argument is that the other person is stupid. This is a waste of time because you're getting too irrational, just like you have in the past. You are very, very bad at taking criticism. You tried to compare salaries between military members and people who do not deploy and who do not work the arduous schedules that military members do. This is illogical. Now you're trying to talk about 'jobs that don't require much skill or competence' and retirement when the only way you can even make it to the years required by retirement is to become a senior enlisted member which is management, not performing those low skill jobs.

I imagine these kind of basic mistakes come because you have no experience and no understanding of what you're talking about. A smarter and more rational person would admit this and move on. I have no doubt you will not do this because you can't.

lol You get off-base housing very quickly, and you're complaining? And of course it's based on local housing, but the point was that Navy ports generally helps along with the special pays I mentioned to boost their compensation to almost six figures. The one going on stupid rants is you.

You do not get off-base housing very quickly, most first term single enlisted people never qualify for BAH.

Dude, your anecdotes are worth little. You've tried to pull BS such as mortality rates when for the vast majority it's zero and a whole bunch of other crapola, and somehow I'm suppose to take you as a credible source or without bias.

Of course you should take me as a credible source, I'm speaking from personal experience. Of course mortality rates relate to military pay, only a fool would suggest otherwise. It was only one of several reasons I listed however. The most important thing here is that basically all the knowledge you have about military life appears to come from furiously Googling things when I called you out for talking about things you don't understand.

Appropriate compensation is based on supply and demand in private sector. Guess what? Military isn't based on it. Why would I take your anecdotes over Pentagon Business Board?

Of course military compensation is based in supply in demand, although it has other aspects as well. That's why when the military has trouble recruiting people they get Congress to up the incentives. I mean, duh.

You're just playing stupid. Most jobs in military aren't combat related. Everyone gets same pay. I've also given the example of trucker as a job with worse conditions than many in military. You can add others like mud loggers.

https://www.airforce.com/careers/detail/services

lol 29 days of technical training and there's whole lot more where that came from. Yeah, they totally deserve those inflated benefits and outrageous pension benefits at the end.

As mentioned above anyone getting those pension benefits is a manager, not a technician. The difference here is that I don't think you are playing stupid, you're just too ignorant of the subject to speak intelligently.

Average is $13k. This is likely skewed underestimating the current veterans as well, since other veterans of past wars are not aligned with today's in consideration of disability ratings.

"In 2000, only 9 percent of veterans drew disability compensation and the average yearly payment, in 2014 dollars, was $8,100. Today 16 percent of veterans receive disability pay and it averages $13,000. CBO says the jump reflects a rise in number and severity of rated ailments, especially for two eras of vets, those who served during Vietnam and the first Gulf War."

Average is extremely misleading because the top end heavily skews that amount. The fact that the percentage and average cost of veterans drawing disability has increased after 16 years of wars should not be even remotely surprising to anyone.

lol It's for doing nothing and it's a life time payment for a 20-something. It's much better than food stamps. At 100% rating, that's well above $1 million dollars, and this is for nonsense like sleep apnea, exercise-induced asthma, "PTSD" etc.

The fact that you just put PTSD in quotes is disgusting. What is wrong with you. The idea that people are getting 100% disability are doing so because they're faking it is also disgusting.

Grow up.

lol I was obviously using it as a distinction to community colleges. People use school, college, and university here. Get over it!

I'm from the US in SoCal. You really love to just assume.

I lived in SoCal for 10 years, I even went to 'university' there! I never heard one person refer to going to college as 'going to university'.

lol What a stupid argument. Obviously there are retirees and any idiot knows to defend if Congress moves to change it (You don't actually have to know the amount).

They also don't understand BAH, BAS, and base pay. Many veterans or current active duty will only mention base pay as their pay. Of course, I know many of them are just being disingenuous.

They definitely understand BAH, BAS, and base pay. How stupid are you.

lol They do medical tests once you get there. That's not where all the erroneous entries and other separations come from, but it is a part of it.

"Before your formal training can begin at Recruit Training Command, you will undergo further medical, dental and administrative screenings."

http://www.bootcamp.navy.mil/p_days.html

I said that is usually where you get disqualified, not exclusively. Duh. Medical problems that are not detected at MEPS usually manifest themselves during training, not during your P days which involve you mostly sitting around in offices filling out paperwork. If you're getting canned during your P days you probably smoked weed before you got there. You should stop talking about things you have no knowledge of. You're literally just reading the Navy site for prospective recruits, hahaha.

I remember when I was leaving boot camp and the new people coming in tried to tell us how it worked because their recruiter had told them something. lol. They were just like you.

What's amusing is that I know even more than you. These terms you should be familiar with, though: nonner and ROAD.lol

Nonner is a Non-sortie generating troop. all but Fliers and flightline workers. If your shop closes for training or lunch, you might be a nonner

http://www.jba.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/337903/retired-on-active-duty/

You see it's this sort of thing that should be embarrassing you. You honestly think you know more about boot camp and military life than I do when I spent seven years doing it and (from my understanding) you've spent all of zero days?

 

[Jhhnn]

I think fski & Maxima need to get a room...

 

[agent00f]

Exactly, you complained they were overpaid without taking into account obvious parts of the job. When informed of this you resorted to generalized ranting about something you didn't understand. When corrected instead of admitting fault you just kept ranting.



Ports do not 'boost' BAH, it is based on the local cost of housing. It is one of the principal reasons why you start being paid well at E-5, as below E-5 (at least when I was in) you had to be married to get it and then your housing costs were often much higher.



So in response to firsthand statements of direct experience you just make a bunch of unfounded rants about what 'many' do. Dismissed without evidence.



If people like it or not is irrelevant. Some people like being at the office 80 hours a week but their likes have no bearing on appropriate compensation.



There is no analogous private sector entity so it's impossible to say that. Dismissed without evidence.



SEEKING is not GETTING. About 10% of veterans have a disability rating of more than 20% and no, 20% of base pay is not a lot.

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

Base pay for an E-5 at 4+ years is $2669, making 20% of their base pay a whopping $6k a year or so. WHAT A GRAVY TRAIN.

https://www.navycs.com/charts/2017-military-pay-chart.html



This is not how Americans talk. I find it unlikely you are American or have any experience with the American military.

Where are you actually from?



So military members simultaneously don't know the pension exists but are an interest group defending their retirement benefits? Interesting. Lol.



I know what P days or for because unlike you, I've actually done them. They are for inprocessing and they are extremely boring. Getting your uniforms, being formed into your division, etc, etc. The people in my division who didn't make it through P days got the boot for popping positive on the drug test, not because P days identified a medical problem. You are usually disqualified for medical reasons before you get there, not during P days. That's what the MEPS physical is for.

It is amusing to watch you furiously google Navy terms and then try to tell someone who actually did all these things what they mean.

It can't be more obvious that most people in defense are only to make much less or be jobless elsewhere, esp given its function as employer of last resort. That's literally why it has one of the biggest political lobbies anywhere to get that free taxpayer money instead of creating anything of value.

But hey, gotta get those white welfare votes.

 

[Maxima1]

So in other words your response to obvious flaws in your argument is that the other person is stupid. This is a waste of time because you're getting too irrational, just like you have in the past. You are very, very bad at taking criticism. You tried to compare salaries between military members and people who do not deploy and who do not work the arduous schedules that military members do. This is illogical. Now you're trying to talk about 'jobs that don't require much skill or competence' and retirement when the only way you can even make it to the years required by retirement is to become a senior enlisted member which is management, not performing those low skill jobs.

I imagine these kind of basic mistakes come because you have no experience and no understanding of what you're talking about. A smarter and more rational person would admit this and move on. I have no doubt you will not do this because you can't.

Dude, your argument has been they do many hours and they get deployed. That's not proving anything.

You're really showing yourself when you think middle management in military is impressive. It's not, and you have an entire layer above it (officers). In fact, the higher you go, the more lax and BS it can be.

You do not get off-base housing very quickly, most first term single enlisted people never qualify for BAH.

Yes, you do. And who cares when you're getting paid already for a career while people are paying college tuition and room & board during those years.

Of course you should take me as a credible source, I'm speaking from personal experience.

I can find enlisted and officers who think they are overpaid. Your individual anecdotes means nothing. You're probably defending this so much because you yourself has military disability or have relatives or friends that have made careers in the military.

Of course mortality rates relate to military pay, only a fool would suggest otherwise.

It's all concentrated in positions you don't have to take. For everyone else, it's effectively ZERO. They still ride that glorifying train despite this.

It was only one of several reasons I listed however. The most important thing here is that basically all the knowledge you have about military life appears to come from furiously Googling things when I called you out for talking about things you don't understand.

The difference is I back up what I say.

Of course military compensation is based in supply in demand, although it has other aspects as well. That's why when the military has trouble recruiting people they get Congress to up the incentives. I mean, duh.

Guess what? During Reagan's time military was much bigger and benefits not as generous. No problem. And you keep skirting the recommendations from the Pentagon Business Board. It's obvious they are just showering them with benefits. Why do they even need preferences for gov jobs btw? Why can't they do it on merit?

As mentioned above anyone getting those pension benefits is a manager, not a technician. The difference here is that I don't think you are playing stupid, you're just too ignorant of the subject to speak intelligently.

Your management distinction is a big laugh. It's a joke.

Average is extremely misleading because the top end heavily skews that amount. The fact that the percentage and average cost of veterans drawing disability has increased after 16 years of wars should not be even remotely surprising to anyone.

lol Just admit it. You were wrong. It wasn't $6k.

It is surprising since the one's who lost limbs and other physical injuries are far fewer than the amount receiving it. "PTSD" is largely a sham and then we have tinnitus, hearing loss, exercise-induced asthma, sleep apnea, etc. jacking up disability payments through the roof. Many go on to work jobs while having no problems socializing, hearing, or whatever. The USPS is a big employer of them. Military preference for gov jobs is another BS benefit.

The fact that you just put PTSD in quotes is disgusting. What is wrong with you. The idea that people are getting 100% disability are doing so because they're faking it is also disgusting.

Grow up.

Because a lot of it is fake or not deserving for what they experienced. Dude, why should taxpayers give someone over a $1 million dollars for relationship breakups and other non-combat related problems or because they saw a dead body in Iraq and heard a bomb?

I lived in SoCal for 10 years, I even went to 'university' there! I never heard one person refer to going to college as 'going to university'.

There's always a first. lol

They definitely understand BAH, BAS, and base pay. How stupid are you.

Why do you always just say **** with no supporting statement?

Here's an example. Many veterans and active duty love to claim that base pay is their compensation only.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/military-life-issues/1971831-u-s-military-underpaid-myth.html

I said that is usually where you get disqualified, not exclusively. Duh.

lol My argument was that even at basic training you can be disqualified for trivial medical reasons like a flawed cornea. You love to co-opt things I say and act as if it supports your argument when it doesn't. Just admit you were wrong again.

Medical problems that are not detected at MEPS usually manifest themselves during training, not during your P days which involve you mostly sitting around in offices filling out paperwork. If you're getting canned during your P days you probably smoked weed before you got there. You should stop talking about things you have no knowledge of. You're literally just reading the Navy site for prospective recruits, hahaha.

No, many are for trivial medical reasons. And again, during basic was my point. If your back or something spasms a little during it, you can be canned, and it can be difficult to appeal successfully. Yet many jobs in the military don't require a perfect back muscle. As I said, it's nice to have BS standards just eliminating people arbitrarily.

You see it's this sort of thing that should be embarrassing you. You honestly think you know more about boot camp and military life than I do when I spent seven years doing it and (from my understanding) you've spent all of zero days?

How is it embarrassing to me? Even military personnel ***** about others as nonessential or complaining about 12s being unnecessary. Of course, that's going to happen when someone has to do 12s getting paid the same as someone doing 8s because they are going to resent the hell out of them. On the other hand, even doing 12s, the military is a far better option for many of them.

 

[Maxima1]

It can't be more obvious that most people in defense are only to make much less or be jobless elsewhere, esp given its function as employer of last resort. That's literally why it has one of the biggest political lobbies anywhere to get that free taxpayer money instead of creating anything of value.

But hey, gotta get those white welfare votes.

Yeah, like the USPS. They are a HUGE employer of veterans/"disabled" veterans, and they get the benefit of government giving them preference over others.

https://about.usps.com/handbooks/el312/el312c4_022.htm

Another avenue they take is diploma mill Thomas Edison and Excelsior college with a liberal arts degree and then make up to $90k (they start as if they are a veteran 20-year teacher) as a junior ROTC instructor. This is subsidized by the fed gov. The class is academically useless. It's suppose to replace PE. lol

 

[ElFenix]

military pension talk not going away

 

[dainthomas]

No, I address your points and then you start ranting like a child.



Sea pay? Even now you end up getting like $500 or $600 a month and that's after spending ten years at sea, not ten years in the service. Sea pay is shit for what you have to do, which is work insane hours in port and then routinely go out to sea where you are effectively working 24/7.

No one who had ever actually done it would call it an 'inconvenience', it literally defines your life. For the civilian equivalent go look up the merchant marines and see what they make.

For real. When I was in sea pay was a pittance (nowhere close to $500). And we were doing three watch sections for most of the deployment, which meant I was probably averaging less than 4 hours a sleep, with basically every other minute being work. The only advantage was the three months in the gulf we were tax free.

 

[Maxima1]

For real. When I was in sea pay was a pittance (nowhere close to $500). And we were doing three watch sections for most of the deployment, which meant I was probably averaging less than 4 hours a sleep, with basically every other minute being work. The only advantage was the three months in the gulf we were tax free.

I don't know about you, but I find it amusing if there's a conservative complaining about this, since A LOT of them argue that minimum wage should be abolished so pay could go below $7 an hour. It's hilarious when you think about the ludicrous amount of hours necessary to even approach military for many jobs in private sector.

 

[fskimospy]

For real. When I was in sea pay was a pittance (nowhere close to $500). And we were doing three watch sections for most of the deployment, which meant I was probably averaging less than 4 hours a sleep, with basically every other minute being work. The only advantage was the three months in the gulf we were tax free.

Yes, I don't know why I'm wasting my time on this clown. It's not like he's going to learn anything or change his mind. I mean I just looked above and he's now citing posts on other forums as evidence of what people in the military think and he's trying to tell me about the boot camp experience when he's never been, haha. He seems to do this pretty often though, reminds me a lot of HumblePie.

I don't think I've ever met someone who thought that sea pay was even remotely worth it for the work you had to do. 6 months straight where if you're LUCKY you're only working 12 hours a day? Here's an extra couple hundred a month! Enjoy! I would have gladly given back every cent of sea pay I ever earned if it meant I never had to spend a day doing boxes in the gulf.

 

[agent00f]

Spending on veterans, particularly pensions, is a direct subsidy to the middle class. We need more of that, not less, and we need to go to where the money is to do it.

Mitch & the Repubs intend to take it the other way, of course, because taxes are for the little people.

The military is literally about the worst way to subsidize anything. Ie. building a bunch of bombs to worse than waste on hapless expendable people.

For real. When I was in sea pay was a pittance (nowhere close to $500). And we were doing three watch sections for most of the deployment, which meant I was probably averaging less than 4 hours a sleep, with basically every other minute being work. The only advantage was the three months in the gulf we were tax free.

Boo hoo, you got money for make-work of ~zero marginal utility instead of nothing.

 

[Maxima1]

Yes, I don't know why I'm wasting my time on this clown. It's not like he's going to learn anything or change his mind. I mean I just looked above and he's now citing posts on other forums as evidence of what people in the military think and he's trying to tell me about the boot camp experience when he's never been, haha. He seems to do this pretty often though, reminds me a lot of HumblePie.

I cited that forum because there are veterans or active duty arguing that BAH, BAS, etc. don't count. They either are stupid and don't understand it is compensation or they are being disingenuous.

I don't think I've ever met someone who thought that sea pay was even remotely worth it for the work you had to do. 6 months straight where if you're LUCKY you're only working 12 hours a day? Here's an extra couple hundred a month! Enjoy! I would have gladly given back every cent of sea pay I ever earned if it meant I never had to spend a day doing boxes in the gulf.

LOL Talk about disingenuous. You don't want to admit it approaches six figs and I gave the reasons why it does. Sea, sub, and ports boost it. Some of them also have reenlistment bonuses that push it above it. Along with paying no taxes on everything due to them saying it's a "combat zone" And this doesn't even go into the $1.8 mil pension for entry level jobs and doing watch.

This chart is average RMC Navy and doesn't include special pays etc.