Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

[TechBoyJK]

Still looks like you're saying blacks need to sell drugs to get ahead. There are other avenues to prosperity.

I'm not seeing the drug trade as a victimless crime. Especially anything above the pot level. A large percentage of the cases we saw on the GJ were tied to drugs, one way or another. Shoplifting, B&E, home invasions, murders, etc... My last session, there was a home invasion and rape while they were trying to find the dealers stash.



As an aside, highway patrol pulled an out of state car. Said he could smell the weed before he got to the car. Guy was transporting 4lbs. He'll be a ward of our state for a while.

How are you getting "Still looks like you're saying blacks need to sell drugs to get ahead. There are other avenues to prosperity."

I'm not saying that at all. I'm at a loss at how you're drawing that conclusion so I'm not sure what to even retort it with.

I'm saying the laws themselves are oppressive. If you don't think the Drug War is the 2nd worse policy fuck up in American History next to Slavery itself, I would suggest you look into it further. There are more black men in prison in America right now than there were total slaves during the height of slavery.

 

[smackababy]

That guy would have never had to bash someone's skull if crack was regulated like alcohol and the price wasn't artificially inflated due to prohibition.

Theft because of drug addiction is less a symptom of addiction and more a symptom of inflated prices.

Wtf are you talking about? Crack is dirt cheap. In fact, it is cheaper than almost all medication. Regulation isn't going to lower the already rock bottom (puns, we love them!) prices of crack cocaine.

Theft because of a drug addiction is a symptom of addiction. They steal because they are chasing that high. Theft is far quicker than working a 9-5 and when that sickness starts to creep up, your addicted brain craves one thing, and it ain't to clock in to a job.

 

[lotus503]

Wonder if they are subsidizing the addicts habits? They aren't holding down a job to cover a $100/day habit.

Legal or illegal, the addict will do whatever for his habit.

Well you actually nailed it, a drug addict is going to do whatever to fuel the habit. By making drugs illegal what you do is put the money in the hands of the government & corporations for incarceration. In Portugal they decriminalized drugs and put money into prevention, education and services to help addicts.

Portugal has seen pretty good results.

 

[highland145]

There is one country (Netherlands I believe) that actually has a free clinic where heroin addicts can come in once a day and receive a daily ration of heroin. They have to also have a medical screening and some counseling, but get clean heroin and gear free of charge. I believe it reduced crime and medical costs associated with those who are going to be addicts regardless.

Reading an article on Portugal. They decriminalized all drugs and increased treatment.

the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization

That looks like a problem.

Trying to figure out their social assistance programs to see if the state supports them during treatment.

That guy would have never had to bash someone's skull if crack was regulated like alcohol and the price wasn't artificially inflated due to prohibition.

Theft because of drug addiction is less a symptom of addiction and more a symptom of inflated prices.

Meth is cheap and easy to make. It's not a price issue. It's an addiction issue. If crack were 1/10 of the price, the addict still needs to come up with the $$.

 

[lotus503]

Reading an article on Portugal. They decriminalized all drugs and increased treatment.
That looks like a problem.

Trying to figure out their social assistance programs to see if the state supports them during treatment.
Meth is cheap and easy to make. It's not a price issue. It's an addiction issue. If crack were 1/10 of the price, the addict still needs to come up with the $$.

"the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization"

That's not a problem that's a huge increase in people seeking treatment.
My wife is a CPS social worker and states emphatically that parents are more capable of parenting while on methadone treatment vs heroin or meth.

Ill take her word for it, she is the one dealing with these people every day.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...lization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

 

[werepossum]

Do you say that as a white man with 400 years of freedom and being the rule maker or do you say this as a black man with 400 years of salvery and 60 years of being allowed the chance of being the rule maker?

Do you need me to break it down for you to a kindergarten level or is it possible you don't understand what's going on?

Compuwiz does seem pretty wise, but I doubt he's over 200 years old. They gots this new-fangled thang called book larnin' now . . .

If black people expect to be allowed to rob stores and punch cops with impunity because of slavery, they will continue to be DRT with surprised expressions. Equality means equality, not trading disadvantage for advantage, not trading being oppressed for the right to oppress others.

Um yea, I was wrong. No doubt about that. It was a dumb idea in retrospect. I was expecting the entire city to be burned to the ground. That didn't happen. So by acknowledging my mistake, that means that you can't rub it in my face again. Got that? Don't bring this up again. It makes me look like a fool.

Good for you.

This exemplifies some of the many differences in the way liberals and conservatives think and how they view the world. Well said and I couldn't agree more.

I pretty much agree, but it's worth pointing out that only a subset of liberals "think" that way.

 

[highland145]

Well you actually nailed it, a drug addict is going to do whatever to fuel the habit. By making drugs illegal what you do is put the money in the hands of the government & corporations for incarceration. In Portugal they decriminalized drugs and put money into prevention, education and services to help addicts.

Portugal has seen pretty good results.

We must be reading the same article..see above. Treatment more than doubled. HIV is down. Trying to see if the system is enabling the problem.


Read somewhere...that 95% of the heroin addicts that came back from Vietnam, quite on their own. Responsibilities, jobs, family, lack of supply...

 

[TechBoyJK]

Wtf are you talking about? Crack is dirt cheap. In fact, it is cheaper than almost all medication. Regulation isn't going to lower the already rock bottom (puns, we love them!) prices of crack cocaine.

Theft because of a drug addiction is a symptom of addiction. They steal because they are chasing that high. Theft is far quicker than working a 9-5 and when that sickness starts to creep up, your addicted brain craves one thing, and it ain't to clock in to a job.

Eh, I'll meet you halfway.

Of course addiction causes people to act irrationally.

But in many cases, especially for more expensive drugs, a crime is required to get the money to pay for drugs that have an inflated cost due to prohibition.

 

[highland145]

"the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization"

That's not a problem that's a huge increase in people seeking treatment.
My wife is a CPS social worker and states emphatically that parents are more capable of parenting while on methadone treatment vs heroin or meth.

Ill take her word for it, she is the one dealing with these people every day.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...lization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

No doubt. Going to the clinic vs hooking up/paying for drugs is way easier.

I want these people to get treatment, get their lives together and move on. Everyone wins. It would be nice if they didn't become addicted in the 1st place.

 

[highland145]

Eh, I'll meet you halfway.

Of course addiction causes people to act irrationally.

But in many cases, especially for more expensive drugs, a crime is required to get the money to pay for drugs that have an inflated cost due to prohibition.

That would be prescription drug abuse.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I'm saying the laws themselves are oppressive. If you don't think the Drug War is the 2nd worse policy fuck up in American History next to Slavery itself, I would suggest you look into it further. There are more black men in prison in America right now than there were total slaves during the height of slavery.

While I agree with you about the drug war being stupid policy, you're wrong about there being more black men in prison right now than there were slaves. There are 841,000 black men in prison right now; there were 4,000,000 slaves counted in the 1860 census.

 

[lotus503]

No doubt. Going to the clinic vs hooking up/paying for drugs is way easier.

I want these people to get treatment, get their lives together and move on. Everyone wins. It would be nice if they didn't become addicted in the 1st place.

It should be noted however, Portugal did not Legalize drugs, they decriminalized them.

 

[rudeguy]

Eh, I'll meet you halfway.

Of course addiction causes people to act irrationally.

But in many cases, especially for more expensive drugs, a crime is required to get the money to pay for drugs that have an inflated cost due to prohibition.

Despite what the press blows up your ass, that isn't true.

I'm very active in the recovery community. I dealt drugs when I was young and dumb, had tons of friends who dealt as well. The vast majority of users are every day people. They go to work, have a family, pay bills...they also happen to enjoy a blunt or a line or a pill or a hit.

Next would probably be people who deal to support their habit. I guess that could qualify under your argument but it doesn't agree with your conclusion. Guy will buy a couple grams, sell one and smoke one. That way he smokes for free.

Next would for sure be welfare people. They get high when they have money and don't when they don't. Sure they would like to get high more but they don't do anything about it.

Your argument that the expensive drugs are the ones that people commit the most crimes to get is straight up wrong. Coke (not crack), pain killers and extacy are the most expensive ones I can think of and I have never known anyone who committed a crime to get them. Most of those people are middle class people who just want to party.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Despite what the press blows up your ass, that isn't true.

I'm very active in the recovery community. I dealt drugs when I was young and dumb, had tons of friends who dealt as well. The vast majority of users are every day people. They go to work, have a family, pay bills...they also happen to enjoy a blunt or a line or a pill or a hit.

Next would probably be people who deal to support their habit. I guess that could qualify under your argument but it doesn't agree with your conclusion. Guy will buy a couple grams, sell one and smoke one. That way he smokes for free.

Next would for sure be welfare people. They get high when they have money and don't when they don't. Sure they would like to get high more but they don't do anything about it.

Your argument that the expensive drugs are the ones that people commit the most crimes to get is straight up wrong. Coke (not crack), pain killers and extacy are the most expensive ones I can think of and I have never known anyone who committed a crime to get them. Most of those people are middle class people who just want to party.

That's not the argument I'm trying to make, and I accept fault for not communicating it properly.

When I get home I'm going to try and dig up the study I was reading that talked about how prohibition inflated pricing for many drugs is partly responsible for drug related crimes. Until then I'm going to shut up because I can't recall the specifics. Just that it made sense at the time and is backed up by my own experiences.

I never intended to say 'high prices' cause all drug crimes.

 

[TechBoyJK]

While I agree with you about the drug war being stupid policy, you're wrong about there being more black men in prison right now than there were slaves. There are 841,000 black men in prison right now; there were 4,000,000 slaves counted in the 1860 census.

Hmmmm. Last I read the stat was a few years ago. It could have very well be that the number is not that those who are currently in prison, but those who are tied up in the justice system in one way or another. I'm at work. I'll try and dig up the info tonight. Now I want to know it for sure again.

 

[smackababy]

Despite what the press blows up your ass, that isn't true.

I'm very active in the recovery community. I dealt drugs when I was young and dumb, had tons of friends who dealt as well. The vast majority of users are every day people. They go to work, have a family, pay bills...they also happen to enjoy a blunt or a line or a pill or a hit.

Next would probably be people who deal to support their habit. I guess that could qualify under your argument but it doesn't agree with your conclusion. Guy will buy a couple grams, sell one and smoke one. That way he smokes for free.

Next would for sure be welfare people. They get high when they have money and don't when they don't. Sure they would like to get high more but they don't do anything about it.

Your argument that the expensive drugs are the ones that people commit the most crimes to get is straight up wrong. Coke (not crack), pain killers and extacy are the most expensive ones I can think of and I have never known anyone who committed a crime to get them. Most of those people are middle class people who just want to party.

This. The only real "expensive" drug anymore is cocaine and that was always a "white person drug", meaning it was for people who could afford it. A hit of heroin is a couple hours pan handling or a single trick. Crack? Ha! $20 worth of crack would OD even the most active user. X is had for around $10-15 a pill (and that is for hours of euphoria) and with "pure" MDMA becoming more and more popular, it's price is dropped (along with synthetic garbage coming out of China as well as legitimate MDMA).

This idea that drugs are expensive is baffling. They simply aren't.

 

[TechBoyJK]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...lack-men-in-prison-slaves-1850_n_1007368.html

Disclaimer: I only skimmed this.

 

[TechBoyJK]

http://www.blackenterprise.com/news/are-there-really-more-blacks-in-prison-than-were-in-slavery/

Makes some pretty good points about having to put the prison vs slavery stat into context.

For instance, there's nearly 10x's as many black people now than during slavery. 90% of black people in america were enslaved. So if you look at the amount of 'free' black men who could be incarcerated back then, versus how many there are now. It's significantly different.

 

[smackababy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...lack-men-in-prison-slaves-1850_n_1007368.html

Disclaimer: I only skimmed this.

By 1850, slavery was in the decline. A lot of slaves ran away to the north, requiring the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. By 1850, all the northern states and a large part of the territories were slave free, and it was only the south which still had slaves.

Funny, they would pick a date so close to the abolishment of slavery in the US. Actually, not funny. I suppose a lot of people could be under the impression every black was a slave until 1865.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It's also appallingly stupid to compare prison to slavery. If you end up in prison, it means you were convicted of a crime. Maybe it was a stupid law and we shouldn't have it, but you still knew it existed and violated it. With slavery, you were either kidnapped or born into it; there's not really any initiative a slave could take that would have prevented their slavery. So saying that "these people chose to break the law and they got caught, which is just like slavery" is fucking ridiculous, even outside of the fact that the numbers are bullshit.

 

[ivwshane]

Compuwiz does seem pretty wise, but I doubt he's over 200 years old. They gots this new-fangled thang called book larnin' now . . .

If black people expect to be allowed to rob stores and punch cops with impunity because of slavery, they will continue to be DRT with surprised expressions. Equality means equality, not trading disadvantage for advantage, not trading being oppressed for the right to oppress others.


Good for you.


I pretty much agree, but it's worth pointing out that only a subset of liberals "think" that way.

"Equality means equality", yeah unless you are a police officer, then you get special treatment? Or if you have money, or if you are a politician. But other than that, everything's equal.

/s



Would you like me to address your straw man or after re reading your post do you see your error?

 

[rommelrommel]

It's also appallingly stupid to compare prison to slavery. If you end up in prison, it means you were convicted of a crime. Maybe it was a stupid law and we shouldn't have it, but you still knew it existed and violated it. With slavery, you were either kidnapped or born into it; there's not really any initiative a slave could take that would have prevented their slavery. So saying that "these people chose to break the law and they got caught, which is just like slavery" is fucking ridiculous, even outside of the fact that the numbers are bullshit.

The people that make that comparison often also believe that the entire law enforcement system and the government is set up to perpetuate circumstances that lead minorities to prison, so there are some parallels. Saying that they are exactly equivilant is pretty stupid, but depending on your viewpoint they can have a lot of similarities.

 

[cubby1223]

"Equality means equality", yeah unless you are a police officer, then you get special treatment? Or if you have money, or if you are a politician. But other than that, everything's equal.

Are you referring to the special treatment Wilson received... when his home was spared rather than burned to the ground by protestors? Or when the judicial system operated properly and he was not sacrificed to appease an angry mob?

What is it you want? I don't understand.

 

[ivwshane]

Are you referring to the special treatment Wilson received... when his home was spared rather than burned to the ground by protestors? Or when the judicial system operated properly and he was not sacrificed to appease an angry mob?

What is it you want? I don't understand.

Again, indictments have a 99%+ rate of coming back with a true bill, that is unless you are a cop, then it drops. You can't with any sort of straight face say that there is nothing wrong there. You also can't say with a straight face that Wilson's indictment was anything but normal. Nor can you say, unless you are completely ignorant on how indictments work, that a no indictment means wilson was found not guilty (and just to preempt the mischaracterizing of my position, it doesn't prove wilson was guilty either). Your line about not appeasing an angry mob is quite funny as that appears to be the reason why the prosecutor decided to even being an indictment charge in the first place.

So no, the justice system is not operating properly and this case was just another example of blind justice not really being blind.

While you worry about your own neighborhood getting torched or other neighborhoods, or while you concern yourself with people unlawfully destroying other people's property I'm am concerned about a justice system that isn't what it claims to be, blind and impartial. Why? Because I'm not dumb enough to not see what will happen if this injustice continues and it won't be black people you will have to be worried about, it will be white people, poor people, and a whole ton of other people who have been wronged because it's not only a race issue, that's simply only a component of it. What you and other conservative media heads keep thinking is an isolated incident that shouldn't be used as any sort of statement fail to see that ferguson is only a small piece of a much larger issue, an issue you apparently fail or are unwilling to acknowledge.

So that's where I'm coming from and while I value where you are coming from and I think it's noble, it's addressing a symptom not the root cause of the issue, which is what my concern is.

 

[Greenman]

"Equality means equality", yeah unless you are a police officer, then you get special treatment? Or if you have money, or if you are a politician. But other than that, everything's equal.

/s



Would you like me to address your straw man or after re reading your post do you see your error?

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Some people are a little more equal than others. But the reverse of that is true as well, some get caught up in a witch hunt because of their public position or wealth.