Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

[soundforbjt]

All the striking shots were fired with Brown facing Wilson. Unless you are positing that black folks run backward from police, Brown was not shot while fleeing, period. Fleeing toward the officer cannot be fleeing from the officer. Charging Wilson or "moving toward" Wilson can be somewhat subjective, but clearly neither is fleeing from Wilson.

Just to flip and play Devil's advocate once again, Brown's thumb injury (I'm assuming it has been verified that the thumb injury was the one in/at the car) would also be consistent with a defensive wound, so that if Wilson drew his weapon and pointed it at Brown (to arrest him) with surprise, Brown's advantages of larger size, weight, and elevation might not be enough to allow him to gain control of the weapon before it discharged.


It's huge news IF it holds up. Right now this is merely more anonymous witnesses, and as by far the most people privy to this information are part of the system, it still deserves a healthy amount of skepticism.

I can completely understand why people could not speak of this to the press because they feared for their safety, but I can also completely understand why the government would benefit from this perception. I'm mindful of other cases such as Trayvon Martin where both sides floated things that are never documented. So until such information is released officially, I'm not taking a stand on it either way.

Not that it really matters, but Wilson is as tall or taller than Brown, easily verified when looking at the picture of him shaking hands getting an award/citation from (I'm guessing) his captain or chief.

 

[ivwshane]

All the striking shots were fired with Brown facing Wilson. Unless you are positing that black folks run backward from police, Brown was not shot while fleeing, period. Fleeing toward the officer cannot be fleeing from the officer. Charging Wilson or "moving toward" Wilson can be somewhat subjective, but clearly neither is fleeing from Wilson.

Just to flip and play Devil's advocate once again, Brown's thumb injury (I'm assuming it has been verified that the thumb injury was the one in/at the car) would also be consistent with a defensive wound, so that if Wilson drew his weapon and pointed it at Brown (to arrest him) with surprise, Brown's advantages of larger size, weight, and elevation might not be enough to allow him to gain control of the weapon before it discharged.


It's huge news IF it holds up. Right now this is merely more anonymous witnesses, and as by far the most people privy to this information are part of the system, it still deserves a healthy amount of skepticism.

I can completely understand why people could not speak of this to the press because they feared for their safety, but I can also completely understand why the government would benefit from this perception. I'm mindful of other cases such as Trayvon Martin where both sides floated things that are never documented. So until such information is released officially, I'm not taking a stand on it either way.

So are you telling me that you are completely unable to grasp how brown ran away from the officer, who then got out the vehicle and fired shots at brown, missing him, brown turned around to give up, was then shot at mutiple times and killed? Are you not capable of understanding that a person can run away and still be shot in the front after turning around?


Did you see how far brown ran away? Did you hear how long it was in between gun shots?

Again, brown ran away, turned around and was shot multiple times from a distance. That is the facts.

 

[werepossum]

It's what we do, Mike. Now play nice and pick a random side.

lol Sometimes I forget that part.

Not that it really matters, but Wilson is as tall or taller than Brown, easily verified when looking at the picture of him shaking hands getting an award/citation from (I'm guessing) his captain or cheif.

Link?

Wouldn't really matter anyway; with Wilson seated, Brown can use his weight more effectively. On the flip side, Wilson's gun would presumably be on the far side, the SUV negates much of the elevation advantage, and Wilson has the end with the grip.

 

[soundforbjt]

Linked picture is now in the original post

 

[Blanky]

Breaking news....... and this is huge!!!!

This is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I am officially stating that this was a righteous shoot. End of story. Stick a fork in this dead horse.

It really is sad that these people could not speak out to the press because they feared for their safety. That is sad and SCAREY actually.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/..._6030220.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics

A lot of people made up their mind about this event as soon as it hit the news, well before we had any real facts. This won't change the minds of people like that. Anything less than a conviction of premeditated murder by Wilson will not appease them.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Not that it really matters, but Wilson is as tall or taller than Brown, easily verified when looking at the picture of him shaking hands getting an award/citation from (I'm guessing) his captain or chief.

To my understanding (without getting current details), brown had about 100 pounds on Wilson and was clearly in a much more aggressive state of mind. Even if brown was 2" shorter, the advantage by weight is clear. I can fight, but with a guy Brown's size, I would have to go full on honey badger to have a chance. Weight is a huge advantage.

 

[TechBoyJK]

So are you telling me that you are completely unable to grasp how brown ran away from the officer, who then got out the vehicle and fired shots at brown, missing him, brown turned around to give up, was then shot at mutiple times and killed? Are you not capable of understanding that a person can run away and still be shot in the front after turning around?


Did you see how far brown ran away? Did you hear how long it was in between gun shots?

Again, brown ran away, turned around and was shot multiple times from a distance. That is the facts.

I don't think that's established fact. I'm still completely on the fence, but to my understanding, an unbiased assessement of the autopsy clearly suggests that Brown was moving towards the gun shots when he was hit. Not just facing the gun, but moving towards the gun. Not saying it's true one way or another, but you might get pushback for calling that 'fact'.

 

[soundforbjt]

To my understanding (without getting current details), brown had about 100 pounds on Wilson and was clearly in a much more aggressive state of mind. Even if brown was 2" shorter, the advantage by weight is clear. I can fight, but with a guy Brown's size, I would have to go full on honey badger to have a chance. Weight is a huge advantage.

Wilson is no small/skinny guy from that picture, someone 6'5"- 6'6"
would weigh more than 200lbs with Wilson's build. I've seen many small fast guys destroy a tall fat guy.

 

[ivwshane]

I don't think that's established fact. I'm still completely on the fence, but to my understanding, an unbiased assessement of the autopsy clearly suggests that Brown was moving towards the gun shots when he was hit. Not just facing the gun, but moving towards the gun. Not saying it's true one way or another, but you might get pushback for calling that 'fact'.

It is a fact (based on eye witness testimony) that he was moving towards the officer (which doesn't negate the fact that I said he turned around and faced wilson). Most accounts don't say he was moving with any sort of momentum.

 

[werepossum]

Linked picture is now in the original post

He certainly looks tall in that photo, but also keep in mind that Tom Jackson is a very short man. Unless he only surrounds himself with very tall people, 'cause he's been the shortest man (and sometimes the shortest person) in every picture I've seen of him.

 

[soundforbjt]

Here's something I just thought of, Wilson claimed he couldn't use his pepper spray because he was in the car, once out of the car and having already wounded Brown, why didn't he use his pepper spray or baton to subdue him?

 

[soundforbjt]

He certainly looks tall in that photo, but also keep in mind that Tom Jackson is a very short man. Unless he only surrounds himself with very tall people, 'cause he's been the shortest man (and sometimes the shortest person) in every picture I've seen of him.

He'd have to be Danny DeVito short (4' 11"). Don't police departments have a minmum height requirement?

 

[highland145]

Here's something I just thought of, Wilson claimed he couldn't use his pepper spray because he was in the car, once out of the can and having already wounded Brown, why didn't he use his pepper spray to subdue him?

Who knows but if I'd already shot him and he, theoretically, charged me...I'm sticking with the gun in my hand.

 

[NoStateofMind]

 

[LegendKiller]

It is a fact (based on eye witness testimony) that he was moving towards the officer (which doesn't negate the fact that I said he turned around and faced wilson). Most accounts don't say he was moving with any sort of momentum.

And you believe "most" accounts? This is your problem, you believe the snitches that won't get stitches because they tow the line.

I am sure that it is going to come out that they have very solid proof that Brown was heading towards Wilson. CTH already pointed out the shell casing landing points and how some are *BEHIND* where Brown ended up and they couldn't have traveled that far on their own. This indicates that Wilson's starting point was at least equal, if not behind, Brown's landing point. This points to the fact that Brown was approaching Wilson and his hands were *NOT* up. The unidentified witness, who is going to be far more truthful, clearly said Brown was heading towards Wilson.

 

[werepossum]

He'd have to be Danny DeVito short (4' 11"). Don't police departments have a minmum height requirement?

I think that was shot down as un-Constitutional where such requirements existed at all. My brother-in-law was a cop and never stood above 5'-2". Hard to judge Jackson's height, but he's as short as any man in any picture I've seen with him in a comparable location.

On the other hand, the lack of official response about Wilson's height makes one think he must be as tall as/nearly as tall as/taller than Brown. Were he 5'-11" as originally claimed, I'd think they would have pointed that out to make the threat more reasonable. Doesn't actually matter to me either way - if a man is armed, I don't think he has any obligation to fight you man to man just because you are unarmed and bellicose. And certainly not a cop; he's there to enforce the law and protect the public, not to prove his manhood or give criminals a fair shot at winning.

Who knows but if I'd already shot him and he, theoretically, charged me...I'm sticking with the gun in my hand.

I think any reasonable person would agree that if a cop shoots someone and he comes running back for more, that is not the time to shift to a less lethal weapon.

"Dang, my pistol didn't stop him! Luckily, I can now access my pepper spray."

 

[LegendKiller]

Here's something I just thought of, Wilson claimed he couldn't use his pepper spray because he was in the car, once out of the car and having already wounded Brown, why didn't he use his pepper spray or baton to subdue him?

If Brown has already shown a penchant for violence and had gone for the gun, why would you think he wouldn't try again? Had Wilson not done that then there is a possibility he'd be dead and Brown would be tried for murder in a clear-cut case.

This is *NOT* a guy who was just minding his own business. He tried to intentionally disarm an officer.

 

[werepossum]

And you believe "most" accounts? This is your problem, you believe the snitches that won't get stitches because they tow the line.

I am sure that it is going to come out that they have very solid proof that Brown was heading towards Wilson. CTH already pointed out the shell casing landing points and how some are *BEHIND* where Brown ended up and they couldn't have traveled that far on their own. This indicates that Wilson's starting point was at least equal, if not behind, Brown's landing point. This points to the fact that Brown was approaching Wilson and his hands were *NOT* up. The unidentified witness, who is going to be far more truthful, clearly said Brown was heading towards Wilson.

Well, duh. Everyone knows shell casings are racist.

EDIT: More seriously, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the possibility that Wilson attempted to draw his weapon and Brown attempted to control the weapon in order to not be shot. A large percentage of Ferguson's blacks (hell, a large percentage of ATPN) are evidently convinced that cops are rampaging murder machines and therefore any attempt to go for a weapon can only mean you're about to be murdered by the cop.

 

[LegendKiller]

Well, duh. Everyone knows shell casings are racist.

Of course they are. Just like the truth is racist.

No matter how much these racists keep trying to justify racism, it doesn't work. It didn't work in convicting a "white mexican" nor will it work to convict Wilson.

 

[highland145]

I think any reasonable person would agree that if a cop shoots someone and he comes running back for more, that is not the time to shift to a less lethal weapon.

Damn, Mike, that's not how we roll. I'm guessing infractions for you, buddy.


Anyway, I still hope the actual GJ testimony comes out.

 

[The Merg]

He certainly looks tall in that photo, but also keep in mind that Tom Jackson is a very short man. Unless he only surrounds himself with very tall people, 'cause he's been the shortest man (and sometimes the shortest person) in every picture I've seen of him.

I thought I read that Wilson was 6' or 6-2. Brown was 6-4, right? I think the noticeable difference is in the weight of the subjects.

- Merg

 

[boomerang]

If I lived in Ferguson I'd be stocking up on plywood for my windows right about now.

 

[Victorian Gray]

A lot of people made up their mind about this event as soon as it hit the news, well before we had any real facts. This won't change the minds of people like that. Anything less than a conviction of premeditated murder by Wilson will not appease them.

Interesting that you don't refer to all the folks who had/have their mind already made up in favour of Wilson. Wonder why that might be.

 

[highland145]

Interesting that you don't refer to all the folks who had/have their mind already made up in favour of Wilson. Wonder why that might be.

I haven't seen a single riot/protest/store looting for him. Strange, right?


Too bad "we" can't wait for the facts to come out before judgement is made.


"we"....all of us but I'm starting with the media and the useless pot stirrers and people looking for $$, with an agenda.

Edit: And since Blanky has stayed out of this thread, maybe he did wait for some "confirmed" points to come out.

Just sayin', VC

 

[Jaskalas]

Here's something I just thought of, Wilson claimed he couldn't use his pepper spray because he was in the car, once out of the car and having already wounded Brown, why didn't he use his pepper spray or baton to subdue him?

After already being aggressively beaten?

That's not an option. You draw, you warn, you kill if threatened.

The standing issue is if there was a threat presented. Hands up or rushing forward. Don't know.