Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

[WHAMPOM]

For anyone that does not know. The Ferguson Police Department did not keep a history of officer abuse. Not on file, not in the officer's record. Nowhere. But. In. The. Round file.

 

[soundforbjt]

He was accidentally caught in the background by someone who was filming MB's body. The location when the video was taken is very close to when MB ended up.

Black Conseco video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=prrydnTAly0


Photo showing location of where the video was taken (Black Conseco)

So, he has no name (was he interviewed by police?) No one knows where he was in relationship to the incident when it actually happened, yet he's credible in the eyes of TCH since it "sides" with Wilson, got it.

 

[xBiffx]

So, he has no name (was he interviewed by police?) No one knows where he was in relationship to the incident when it actually happened, yet he's credible in the eyes of TCH since it "sides" with Wilson, got it.

No one knows much more about the other witnesses either, names mostly. We know what CNN has told us as far as their statements go.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Nope, he's more credible due to the fact the statements are raw, unrehearsed, and unadulterated. His statement also closely matches the shots that were caught on the audio recording. I would suspect he lives in the apartment behind where the video was shot as it was occurring within 1 or 2 minutes of the shooting as MB had not been covered and we know from other video his body was covered 4 1/2 minutes after the shooting.

According to the police there are others who's statements to the police also back up Wilson's account of what happened. Just because they choose not to come forward in the media does not mean their statements have not been entered into evidence.

 

[soundforbjt]

Nope, he's more credible due to the fact the statements are raw, unrehearsed, and unadulterated. His statement also closely matches the shots that were caught on the audio recording. I would suspect he lives in the apartment behind where the video was shot as it was occurring within 1 or 2 minutes of the shooting as MB had not been covered and we know from other video his body was covered 4 1/2 minutes after the shooting.

According to the police there are others who's statements to the police also back up Wilson's account of what happened. Just because they choose not to come forward in the media does not mean their statements have not been entered into evidence.

You mean according to a newspaper's police reporter's tweets, there are a dozen witnesses who back up Wilson, just like "Josie", Wilson's co-worker
(who gets her info from Wilson), yet CTH claims her as credible, yet she witnessed nothing.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yet you can't prove otherwise as you have no access to the statements that have been taken by the police and placed into evidence in this case. My bet is we will not see any actual witness statements until after the grand jury has made a determination and even then it will be redacted statements so no one will know the identity of the persons that provided witness statements on what occurred.

 

[Darwin333]

For anyone that does not know. The Ferguson Police Department did not keep a history of officer abuse. Not on file, not in the officer's record. Nowhere. But. In. The. Round file.

Has it been mentioned in this thread that in 2013 Ferguson court issued 3 warrants for every single household and fines and court fees are the second largest source of revenue for Ferguson?

 

[werepossum]

I see. That makes sense.

SNIP

To me if the eye witness accounts were credible then Wilson would be arrested. I take the fact that Wilson isn't arrested to mean the eye witness accounts are not that credible. This is based around disbelief that their could be significant physical and other evidence currently matching eyewitness accounts of the murder scenario and have Wilson remain not arrested. This may appear to be deducting backwards or through a prism of race, I don't believe it is based on what i'm considering.

I would agree except for one factor - as a cop, Wilson gets an enormous amount of good faith credibility (as he should.) I don't think Wilson's lack of arrest really tells us anything about the witnesses' credibility because cops really, really, really don't want to arrest other cops and at the very least, will delay it as long as possible. And as a cop, if the evidence of guilt is mixed, as a cop Wilson will receive the benefit of the doubt. (Which, again, he should receive, as a cop.)

CNN lying about those contractors distance a big deal? CNN says they were 50 feet away. The video they used made it difficult to tell, but first thing I thought when I heard just 50ft away was, "wow that's close".

If the truth is that they were that they were 100ft away would it matter?, 150ft?, 200ft away?

Google maps indicates 220ft from contractors position to Brown's body.
Photo from of theconservativetreehouse.com

The first thing I think when I hear 200ft is not, "wow, that's close". I wonder if this is why CNN lied and said 50ft....

The contractor footage, impactful only because of CNN's edit job IMO. Not much more than bait at this point.

The account is inconsisistent and they were at a distance of ~200ft and it apears that the building and tree would obscure their vision.


As for existing witnesses see Here at 1:25-2:30 , a complete joke and making up. None of this stuff on CNN would hold up much if at all in a court of law.

"We said he got shot at", the narrative version of we as in the story "we" made up. And then of course Piaget's take on MB's hands, well if this doesn't make your hair stand up at what's she's too stupid to know she's admitting to (didn't see it making up) then i'm not sure what will. Also her made up version doesn't fit with what CNN was trying to tease us into seeing with the contractor in pink FWIW.

Eye witnesses should be telling the truth and match other known information in order to attain credibility. Piaget is not honest, that's clear. Contractors at ~200 ft with obstructions, and the bait of the hands up scene in the footage, would need more info.

I agree it's a major slam on CNN's credibility, but 220 feet is clearly not too distant to see whether one's hands are raised. The obstructions are of course a different matter, but why would the contractors be all upset about hearing someone they don't know say the victim (whom they also don't know) had his arms up when the officer (who once again, they don't know) shot him?

This looks more like a taunting gesture than a I give up gesture. Maybe one could be saying what is bolded below.

http://breakingbrown.com/2014/08/fr...rown-bum-rushed-the-officer-but-is-that-true/

I agree, but so what? Pretty sure cops aren't allowed to shoot someone because he runs thirty feet away, then stops and taunts them. If anything it would mitigate against shooting him - if his hands are down at his body he might be a few inches from a weapon, but unless he had invested in a Celestial Time/Space Continuum Warp Holster he obviously wasn't going to pull a weapon out of thin air with his arms raised and outstretched.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I agree, but so what? Pretty sure cops aren't allowed to shoot someone because he runs thirty feet away, then stops and taunts them. If anything it would mitigate against shooting him - if his hands are down at his body he might be a few inches from a weapon, but unless he had invested in a Celestial Time/Space Continuum Warp Holster he obviously wasn't going to pull a weapon out of thin air with his arms raised and outstretched.

Based on the gunshot wounds shown in the autopsy report, his arms weren't in that position when the shots landed so they must not have been raised for very long.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I'll bet that their statements will not be deemed any more credible than any of the other witnesses that have come forward in the media. The fact they describe the shots and sequence differently than the audio recording make their statements less credible.

Yeah, because they were probably sitting in the private staff lounge and couldn't really see what was going on.

 

[Attic]

I would agree except for one factor - as a cop, Wilson gets an enormous amount of good faith credibility (as he should.) I don't think Wilson's lack of arrest really tells us anything about the witnesses' credibility because cops really, really, really don't want to arrest other cops and at the very least, will delay it as long as possible. And as a cop, if the evidence of guilt is mixed, as a cop Wilson will receive the benefit of the doubt. (Which, again, he should receive, as a cop.)

Agree, I am reading to far into lack of arrest equating to unknown evidence of innocence at this point in time. If there was physical evidence of guilt matching eyewitness I think arrest happens though, this doesn't mean unknown evidence exists of innocence.


I agree it's a major slam on CNN's credibility, but 220 feet is clearly not too distant to see whether one's hands are raised. The obstructions are of course a different matter, but why would the contractors be all upset about hearing someone they don't know say the victim (whom they also don't know) had his arms up when the officer (who once again, they don't know) shot him?

I think the major distance differential between where the guys were in the video (~200ft) and what CNN claimed (50ft) just speaks to overall credibility of CNN and mostly calls into question overall presentation being juxtaposed with reality. It's possible CNN's line is still parallel to the truth in the end, but they are perpendicular to the truth on a number of points, particularly in that contractor video. Personally I think contractors being upset in the manner you suggest, if that were the case, is believable.

I agree, but so what? Pretty sure cops aren't allowed to shoot someone because he runs thirty feet away, then stops and taunts them. If anything it would mitigate against shooting him - if his hands are down at his body he might be a few inches from a weapon, but unless he had invested in a Celestial Time/Space Continuum Warp Holster he obviously wasn't going to pull a weapon out of thin air with his arms raised and outstretched.

Arms up taunting lines up with possible charge scenario, agree without charge there is unjustifiable use of force for someone with arms up standing still.

These are good points. Put my thoughts in bold.

 

[soundforbjt]

Based on the gunshot wounds shown in the autopsy report, his arms weren't in that position when the shots landed so they must not have been raised for very long.

I imagine after getting shot that it'd be harder to keep your hands in the air (if Wilson shot while hands were raised) and apparently useless as well.

 

[werepossum]

Based on the gunshot wounds shown in the autopsy report, his arms weren't in that position when the shots landed so they must not have been raised for very long.

How do we know that? Seems to me the arm wounds aren't terribly diagnostic either way as arms are so easily movable. For instance, at least one ME thinks at least one arm wound could have been a rear shot or a frontal shot. For myself, the arm wounds seemed consistent with classic defensive wounds where the victim has his arms interposed between himself and the shooter in a vain attempt to ward off injury.

These are good points. Put my thoughts in bold.

I agree with your thoughts and commend you for thinking in bold text. 😉

 

[soundforbjt]

Arms up taunting lines up with possible charge scenario, agree without charge there is unjustifiable use of force for someone with arms up standing still.

Still clinging to the "charge" scenario, even though NO WITNESS has ever used the word, nor inferred to it.
Some others (Hannity, CTH, etc.) have implied it though.

 

[Attic]

Still clinging to the "charge" scenario, even though NO WITNESS has ever used the word, nor inferred to it.
Some others (Hannity, CTH, etc.) have implied it though.

Good grief. We've been over this. The eyewitness described a charging brown.

WITNESS (7:18 – 7:21): He, then dude started running, kept coming toward the police.

IMO it's unreasonable on your part to suggest this doesn't indicate a charging MB.

Perhaps the witness is wrong in his interpretation of events, but what he describes is the charging scenario of events.

If you want to cling onto something else, i'd be interested to hear a valid reason for MB running and continuing to run towards Wilson being different enough from "charging" to continue to warrant mention of a distinction on this point of contention.

FWIW I use "charging" instead of "dude started running, kept coming toward the police" because it's easier to type "charging", not because i'm trying to play games with what the witness has to say or with what I believe is being described here.



Was MB charging officer Wilson?

Na man, he was running towards and kept coming towards officer Wilson.


We could say MB "approached" officer Wilson in a manner consistent with MB rate of speed while running?

 

[soundforbjt]

Good grief. We've been over this. The eyewitness described a charging brown.



IMO it's unreasonable on your part to suggest this doesn't indicate a charging MB.


If you want to cling onto something else, i'd be interested to hear a valid reason for MB running and continuing to run towards Wilson being different enough from "charging" to continue to warrant mention of a distinction on this point of contention.

FWIW I use "charging" instead of "dude started running, kept coming toward the police" because it's easier to type "charging", not because i'm trying to play games with what the witness has to say or with what I believe is being described here.

But your whole premise is hanging on a "witness" that no one knows (has never made any public statements), who may have or have not seen from a good vantage point, may have been drunk or high for all you or anyone else knows. Small thing to cling to in the face of the rising evidence against.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

How do we know that? Seems to me the arm wounds aren't terribly diagnostic either way as arms are so easily movable. For instance, at least ME thinks at least one arm wound could have been a rear shot or a frontal shot. For myself, the arm wounds seemed consistent with classic defensive wounds where the victim has his arms interposed between himself and the shooter in a vain attempt to ward off injury.


I agree with your thoughts and commend you for thinking in bold text. 😉

To me the wounds look more consistant with Brown running at Wilson as he was shot. Shots landing on the officers right and becoming more center as the distance decreased. This scenario would also be consistant with someone with a dominant eye injury.

 

[realibrad]

You can actually tell where his arms were, assuming he was standing. If his arms were up, a bullet would enter the back of the upper arm. If his arms were down to his side, they would enter the front of the upper arm. From what I read, the bullets did not enter the back of his upper arm.

 

[Attic]

But your whole premise is hanging on a "witness" that no one knows (has never made any public statements), who may have or have not seen from a good vantage point, may have been drunk or high for all you or anyone else knows. Small thing to cling to in the face of the rising evidence against.

If that's a yield, i'd accept.


Yes, even though the witness describes a charging Brown, he might be completely wrong and or mistaken about what occurred. This is currently a hindrance shared by all witnesses IMO.

What witnesses match physical and other evidence is going to hopefully help clear up which accounts are likely to be an account of the truth.

 

[Attic]

You can actually tell where his arms were, assuming he was standing. If his arms were up, a bullet would enter the back of the upper arm. If his arms were down to his side, they would enter the front of the upper arm. From what I read, the bullets did not enter the back of his upper arm.

I can't figure that out in any definitive means. Only scenario that seems most unlikely is that MB was struck in the arms with the arms over his head due to wtf aim. If his arms are "up" at a V with the bottom of the V starting around his hips, I can see it. Running seems unlikely for shots to land that way IMO.

Still can't envision a motive for DW to gun down in such a overhanded manner (11-12 shots, 6 landing in the manner from autopsy pic) a clear and obvious non threat. To believe Piaget, DJ, Michelle, and run through that scenario, DW out for nothing but reckless blood. And their 3 accounts heavily conflict if you dig into what they've said, particularly regarding nature and timing of Wilson exiting vehicle. Brady missed turn around sequence, contractor in pink appears decent source, but limited as well.

I consider that possibly a lot of racial angst is being baked into the murderous white man gunning down a black man belief here, almost like an allegory for how an impression of oppression would feel to folks who feel oppressed. Personally, important to verify if i'm totally out of bounds on that or if this encounter has been misunderstood and misrepresented for reasons relating to psychology in the black community and built up through some less than savory characters stoking the flame pit at any and every opportunity. I think the case clearly asks questions and steps far beyond the simple plain truth of what happened between DW DJ and MB. Regardless, the truth will only be a first step in what I'd guess we'd all like to see happen here; get better, not happen again.

Shell casing distance from body helpful in describing the shots charactistics as well.

 

[Catriona]

CNN lying about those contractors distance a big deal? CNN says they were 50 feet away. The video they used made it difficult to tell, but first thing I thought when I heard just 50ft away was, "wow that's close".

If the truth is that they were that they were 100ft away would it matter?, 150ft?, 200ft away?

Google maps indicates 220ft from contractors position to Brown's body.
Photo from of theconservativetreehouse.com

The first thing I think when I hear 200ft is not, "wow, that's close". I wonder if this is why CNN lied and said 50ft....

The contractor footage, impactful only because of CNN's edit job IMO. Not much more than bait at this point.

The account is inconsisistent and they were at a distance of ~200ft and it apears that the building and tree would obscure their vision.


As for existing witnesses see Here at 1:25-2:30 , a complete joke and making up. None of this stuff on CNN would hold up much if at all in a court of law.

"We said he got shot at", the narrative version of we as in the story "we" made up. And then of course Piaget's take on MB's hands, well if this doesn't make your hair stand up at what's she's too stupid to know she's admitting to (didn't see it making up) then i'm not sure what will. Also her made up version doesn't fit with what CNN was trying to tease us into seeing with the contractor in pink FWIW.

Eye witnesses should be telling the truth and match other known information in order to attain credibility. Piaget is not honest, that's clear. Contractors at ~200 ft with obstructions, and the bait of the hands up scene in the footage, would need more info.

Are you getting the 200 ft from the position they're in beside their truck? If so, that may be misleading. I believe the contractors themselves said they were ~ 50 ft from the shooting. It's apparent in the video that at least a couple of minutes have passed since the shooting, so it would be reasonable to think the contractors moved back to where their truck was parked during that time.

And whether or not they did, it's still supposition that they were beside the truck at the time of the shooting.

Regardless, the most recent article I read said they had given statements to LE, so CNN's version won't matter in the long run.

 

[werepossum]

To me the wounds look more consistant with Brown running at Wilson as he was shot. Shots landing on the officers right and becoming more center as the distance decreased. This scenario would also be consistant with someone with a dominant eye injury.

I wouldn't say the wounds were inconsistent with that, I just don't think they are definitive either way.

You can actually tell where his arms were, assuming he was standing. If his arms were up, a bullet would enter the back of the upper arm. If his arms were down to his side, they would enter the front of the upper arm. From what I read, the bullets did not enter the back of his upper arm.

If his arms were immobile, yes, except that one or more were actually grazing interior surface shots. Hard to accurately ascribe a direction of travel to those, let alone a direction to the shooter.

 

[Catriona]

I can't figure that out in any definitive means. Only scenario that seems most unlikely is that MB was struck in the arms with the arms over his head. If his arms are "up" at a V with the bottom of the V starting around his hips, I can see it. Running seems unlikely for shots to land that way IMO.

Still can't envision a motive for DW to gun down is such a overhanded manner (11-12 shots, 6 landing i the manner from autopsy) a clear and obvious non threat. To believe Piaget, DJ, Michelle, and run through that scenario, DW out for nothing but reckless blood.
Shell casing distance from body helpful

I still want to know why that autopsy diagram refers to "re-entry" wounds.

 

[werepossum]

I still want to know why that autopsy diagram refers to "re-entry" wounds.

The official explanation was that one bullet struck Brown in the eye, exited his jaw, re-entered his chest at the collar bone, and deflected out to exit his chest and perhaps re-enter in his arm. That angle is consistent with Brown charging, as is the fatal crown shot. They are also consistent with Brown dropping while curling into a fetal position while facing Wilson - not an unreasonable act if one is unarmed and facing a hail of bullets.

Attic's link is the first time I've seen Piaget and she seems a better witness than I suspected based on comments here. I was expecting crack head; I got bed head, and reasonably well-spoken and even attractive. She may be wrong, she may be intentionally lying her ass off, but the only real problem I saw was that her explanation that Brown's arms were raised or being raised doesn't fit the evidence. And indeed, she walked that back; "he had his arms raised, but maybe they weren't really raised yet before he got shot down." It wouldn't be inconsistent though with Brown raising his arms into a defensive posture, which she interpreted as Brown raising his arms into a surrendering posture, as he was shot. Only problem with that is that if the audio recording is an accurate representation of what happened, there clearly isn't enough time between the two groups for the first group to have been fired at a running Brown's back, then Brown stopping, turning around, and raising his hands, then Brown being executed. I don't think that necessarily means she is lying though, as the audio recording may not be what we think it is.

 

[Catriona]

The official explanation was that one bullet struck Brown in the eye, exited his jaw, re-entered his chest at the collar bone, and deflected out to exit his chest and perhaps re-enter in his arm. That angle is consistent with Brown charging, as is the fatal crown shot. They are also consistent with Brown dropping while curling into a fetal position while facing Wilson - not an unreasonable act if one is unarmed and facing a hail of bullets.

Attic's link is the first time I've seen Piaget and she seems a better witness than I suspected based on comments here. I was expecting crack head; I got bed head, and reasonably well-spoken and even attractive. She may be wrong, she may be intentionally lying her ass off, but the only real problem I saw was that her explanation that Brown's arms were raised or being raised doesn't fit the evidence. And indeed, she walked that back; "he had his arms raised, but maybe they weren't really raised yet before he got shot down." It wouldn't be inconsistent though with Brown raising his arms into a defensive posture, which she interpreted as Brown raising his arms into a surrendering posture, as he was shot. Only problem with that is that if the audio recording is an accurate representation of what happened, there clearly isn't enough time between the two groups for the first group to have been fired at a running Brown's back, then Brown stopping, turning around, and raising his hands, then Brown being executed. I don't think that necessarily means she is lying though, as the audio recording may not be what we think it is.

I saw Piaget's interview, and also thought she was well-spoken.

And this seems fairly well-balanced:

http://news.yahoo.com/witness-micha...-not-charging-ferguson-officer-182409896.html

But the worker who spoke to the Post-Dispatch said he could not tell from his vantage point if the teen’s movement toward Wilson after the first round of shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

The contractors’ disbelief regarding the tragedy was captured by a citizen recording video moments after the shots stopped.

“He had his f**n hands in the air,” one of the contractors shouts on the video, which was obtained by CNN.

“Man, he was going like this,” the worker says with his hands raised in the air.

In a phone interview, the contractor told CNN that “the cop didn’t say get on the ground. He just kept shooting.”

The worker’s recollection is the same as handwritten notes he took immediately after the shooting. He shared them with St. Louis’ KTVI-TV.

“[Brown] threw his hands up and yelled, ‘ok, ok, ok, ok, ok,’ ” he wrote. “Police officer (who said nothing) emptied his gun into this guy.”