Minorities in Europe worried

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
5-13-2004: An enlarged EU fans the fears of Europe's Muslims

Beate Winkler, director of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, the EU's race relations watchdog, says enlargement has increased the sense of alienation.

5-5-2004: Human rights in an enlarged EU: what can people expect now?

The official accession to the European Union of ten new member states on 1 May ought to be good news for human rights. Protection of fundamental rights was a critical aspect of the accession process. Candidate countries were scrutinized for years to ensure that their laws and practices were brought in line with EU norms.

The reality is not quite so reassuring. While they are supposed to have passed all the tests to become members of an EU that prides itself on being a Union of values, in practice there are still some serious problems in the new member states. These relate to broad areas of the administration of justice, while discrimination against minorities, in particular Roma, remains a painful reality.

However, all EU members are equal, so on 1 May the scrutiny effectively stopped. In any case, joining the EU is no guarantee that rights will be respected - human rights violations do occur within the EU and they are not just isolated incidents.

Meanwhile in Slovenia, one of the new additions to the EU, a vote was conducted about 2 weeks ago:

More than 18,000 mostly Bosnians, Croats and Serbs were officially erased from state records after Slovenia declared its independence in 1991. The move effectively made them non-persons in the eyes of the government.

In a referendum Sunday, 95 percent of the voters denied restoring the rights to the ethnic minorities.

Were they really scrutinized and brought in line with EU practices? Is this really the EU norm?
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
you have been banging on this single issue for weeks now, do you have anything else to add?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Czar
you have been banging on this single issue for weeks now, do you have anything else to add?

If you read the post, you'd see that there's some new info there. The Slovenia thing is just something a little extra I added to add some more weight to the discussion in the article. They didn't mention too many specifics, so I thought it would be helpful.

Anyways, I want you to say the same thing to the people talking about the Iraqi war photo atrocities, Iraq war in general, Bush vs. Kerry, etc.

Some things are important, like those issues. Human rights are important, too.
 

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
4,725
0
0
In particular Roma? WTF?

And, lets talk also about the human rights in USA. More specifically the rights of prisoners of war... no wait, what are the people in Quantanamo called again? And the treatment of prisoners in Iraq.
Oh, right... this is not happening in USA, so that makes it ok.

I guess EU is the only evil in what comes to human rights. Maybe we should learn from Turkey, and accept them in to EU ASAP!
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: DaFinn
In particular Roma? WTF?

And, lets talk also about the human rights in USA. More specifically the rights of prisoners of war... no wait, what are the people in Quantanamo called again? And the treatment of prisoners in Iraq.
Oh, right... this is not happening in USA, so that makes it ok.

I guess EU is the only evil in what comes to human rights. Maybe we should learn from Turkey, and accept them in to EU ASAP!

Of course the US has problems. I criticize the Gitmo situation all the time. But this thread is about Europe, the EU in particular. It's causing a lot of concern worldwide. They're blatantly ignoring the human rights of millions of people, and actively working to make it even worse. If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

I sometimes wonder what people said to anti-apartheid activists, civil rights activists, slavery abolitionists, etc. I wonder if they said "hey, look, you have your own problems in the US, England, etc. so don't bother criticizing our apartheid situation." Obviously the champions of human rights didn't fall for such a cheap trick.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..
 

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
4,725
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..

EU has allways been about creating a powerful market, that can compete globally with anybody. Including USA. And Euro has allways been about creating a stable strong currency as an alternative to a play chip called the dollar. Now that Far East is starting to accept Euro, it makes things better for Europe... i wish OPEC would switch to Euro aswell.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..

EU has allways been about creating a powerful market, that can compete globally with anybody. Including USA. And Euro has allways been about creating a stable strong currency as an alternative to a play chip called the dollar. Now that Far East is starting to accept Euro, it makes things better for Europe... i wish OPEC would switch to Euro aswell.

I think these anti-immigration, xenophobia, institutionalized racism, etc. is going to hinder their economic growth & power.
 

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
4,725
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..

EU has allways been about creating a powerful market, that can compete globally with anybody. Including USA. And Euro has allways been about creating a stable strong currency as an alternative to a play chip called the dollar. Now that Far East is starting to accept Euro, it makes things better for Europe... i wish OPEC would switch to Euro aswell.

I think these anti-immigration, xenophobia, institutionalized racism, etc. is going to hinder their economic growth & power.


Careful now what you speak...

Anti-immigration? More than...?

-If there were not so many immigrants coming to Europe on false bases, just trying to come and live on our high standard of social security, this would not be a problem. Europe has created a high standard for us Europeans to enjoy. Ofcourse taxpayers don't like foreigners coming here and do nothing, just use all the benefits. Europe does not turn back justified refugees, we do our share.

Xenophobia?

-I refer to above statement, and add: In my country for example, we get a LOT of "economic refugees" who come from poor conditions, and are looking for a better life. Because of our high social security, they get a nice apartment, money each month worth more than their yearly income back home... THEY DO NOT WORK NOR DO ANYTHING TO PAY BACK, THEY JUST WANT TO ENJOY THE BENEFITS. I have nothing against people who come here to work, and make their own life better. That's ok. ALSO, these social slackers who come here very often get involved in crimes. Statistically over 50% of them have a criminal record. Ritual slaughterings, economic crimes, tax frauds, murdering their children for dating a wrong colored guy... Yes, since we can show over 50% of them are not fit for a civilised society why should we try to get more of them here???

Institutionalized racism?

-Again referring to above statements. Most new laws/ rules are forced by puplic opinion. Puplic that want's to live in peace and harmony with everyone who adjusts. I do think that people in each country should live according to the laws and ways of that country. Thats why the laws exists. If people do not adjust, then they may leave. I personally would not like to have a neighbor, who slaughters a sheep in his backyard with a hammer while my son is out playing? Would you like such neighbor? If they want to do it, fine. Just thay can do it elsewhere.


ANYWAY, ALL THESE THREADS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND EUROPE. SOMEONE LIVING IN US? IN A COUNTRY THAT ALLMOST EXPELLED ALL ARABS AFTER 9/11. THAT IS BRINGING THEIR MORAL STANDARDS TO THE REST OF THE WORLD BY TORTURING AND HUMILIATING PRISONERS, AND TOTALLY DISRECARDING ALL INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS. THAT IS REQUIRING AIRLINES TO SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS AND BACKROUND INFO AND WHAT NOT FROM PEOPLE COMING TO VISIT THEIR COUNTRY. US IS NOT GETTING THESE "SOCIAL SECURITY SLACKERS" BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOCIAL SECURITY. BABIES DON'T GET TREATED, BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS CANNOT AFFORD INSURANCE. AND, THEIR OWN MINORITIES... Blah, don't even want to start about the rights of black people, hispanics, past violations. Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate to US.


-hinder our economic power and growth... HA, I think not. US is the one crumbling, and justifiably so!
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..

EU has allways been about creating a powerful market, that can compete globally with anybody. Including USA. And Euro has allways been about creating a stable strong currency as an alternative to a play chip called the dollar. Now that Far East is starting to accept Euro, it makes things better for Europe... i wish OPEC would switch to Euro aswell.

I think these anti-immigration, xenophobia, institutionalized racism, etc. is going to hinder their economic growth & power.


Careful now what you speak...

Anti-immigration? More than...?

-If there were not so many immigrants coming to Europe on false bases, just trying to come and live on our high standard of social security, this would not be a problem. Europe has created a high standard for us Europeans to enjoy. Ofcourse taxpayers don't like foreigners coming here and do nothing, just use all the benefits. Europe does not turn back justified refugees, we do our share.

Xenophobia?

-I refer to above statement, and add: In my country for example, we get a LOT of "economic refugees" who come from poor conditions, and are looking for a better life. Because of our high social security, they get a nice apartment, money each month worth more than their yearly income back home... THEY DO NOT WORK NOR DO ANYTHING TO PAY BACK, THEY JUST WANT TO ENJOY THE BENEFITS. I have nothing against people who come here to work, and make their own life better. That's ok. ALSO, these social slackers who come here very often get involved in crimes. Statistically over 50% of them have a criminal record. Ritual slaughterings, economic crimes, tax frauds, murdering their children for dating a wrong colored guy... Yes, since we can show over 50% of them are not fit for a civilised society why should we try to get more of them here???

Institutionalized racism?

-Again referring to above statements. Most new laws/ rules are forced by puplic opinion. Puplic that want's to live in peace and harmony with everyone who adjusts. I do think that people in each country should live according to the laws and ways of that country. Thats why the laws exists. If people do not adjust, then they may leave. I personally would not like to have a neighbor, who slaughters a sheep in his backyard with a hammer while my son is out playing? Would you like such neighbor? If they want to do it, fine. Just thay can do it elsewhere.


ANYWAY, ALL THESE THREADS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND EUROPE. SOMEONE LIVING IN US? IN A COUNTRY THAT ALLMOST EXPELLED ALL ARABS AFTER 9/11. THAT IS BRINGING THEIR MORAL STANDARDS TO THE REST OF THE WORLD BY TORTURING AND HUMILIATING PRISONERS, AND TOTALLY DISRECARDING ALL INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS. THAT IS REQUIRING AIRLINES TO SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS AND BACKROUND INFO AND WHAT NOT FROM PEOPLE COMING TO VISIT THEIR COUNTRY. US IS NOT GETTING THESE "SOCIAL SECURITY SLACKERS" BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOCIAL SECURITY. BABIES DON'T GET TREATED, BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS CANNOT AFFORD INSURANCE. AND, THEIR OWN MINORITIES... Blah, don't even want to start about the rights of black people, hispanics, past violations. Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate to US.


-hinder our economic power and growth... HA, I think not. US is the one crumbling, and justifiably so!


Your entire post comes down to 'Foreigners are evil and useless, it's OK to hate them if the public hates them'. You kind of prove his point. If you're any representation of the average European, then that's pretty sad.

Your last paragraph is hilarious and is exactly what I was talking about in another thread - where Europeans cannot take any criticism of their own country at all. They routinely bash the US, but if someone is critical of anything in Europe, they attack the poster and start crying.

How do you know if he doesn't understand Europe? Do you understand the US? I don't know, but I'm not going to say YOU ARE FROM EUROPE AND YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE US THEREFORE YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THE US BECAUSE I DONT LIKE READING BAD THINGS ABOUT MY COUNTRY!!! Ridiculous.

When were all Arabs going to be expelled after 9/11? Please back this up.

Yeah, submitting fingerprints is so horrible!

Blah, don't even want to start about the rights of black people, hispanics, past violations. Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate to US.

Yeah, Europe has never done past violations to any race, religion or ethnicity in the past. I love it when a crazy European person talks about past history! Europe's past history is bathed in the blood of the world.

Nobody ever says that the US doesn't have any problems...just that these problems are somewhat more severe in Europe.

Do you deny the fact that many far-right politicians/parties running on a plateform of xenophobia or racism have support in Europe? Do you deny the basis of the UK poll in the other thread? Do you deny the results of past elections? Do you deny the fact of ethnic based citizenship requirements that are different for some as well as its recent use?

Are any of the Europeans on this board not rabid patriots that are essentially cheerleaders for their own country/Europe?

I think the very fundamental core of Europe is that it is still trying to retain its distinct homogenous culture. People don't want others to integrate - they want them to be exactly the same as they are. This probably comes from the fact that Europe just wasn't built on immigration like Canada/US. The US/Canada just doesn't have as unique or homogenous of a culture as most European (and throw in most countries elsewhere) countries...it's always and will always just be a mix of a bunch of different cultures and people. It's not a melting pot at all as some like to call it since that would mean that everyone is culturally the same.
 

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
4,725
0
0
RabidMongoose,

Nice generalization of my post. I'll try and make it short for you to better understand:

-We have a nice welfare system. We hate equally everybody who tries to exploit it (European or foreigner). US does not have a problem with this, because you have none.
-Anybody coming to Europe to work and support themselves are very welcome.
-Cultural diversity is a difficult thing. But my opinion is, if you want to live here, you got to let go of something. (Ritual slaughters etc...)
-Because our system is abused/ laws ignored, people get angry. This is why politicians/ parties saying "we'll get the wrong doers" are popular.

Does this clear things up? If you had the level of social security we have, and youd pay for it, would you not be offended by people who abuse it?

I don't say we don't have any problems... we do. What pisses me off, is critique coming from people who do not respect any laws and agreements themselves. It's like Turkey saying "We wont join EU before you get you human rights in order!"

And yes, we had a crazy dictator who did not like some people very much. So did Russia... and China and Cambodia and...
 

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
4,725
0
0
Wrong doers are not liked in US either:

A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in Detroit on Friday he could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps for ArabAmericans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country.

If there's a future terrorist attack in America "and they come from the same ethnic group that attacked the World Trade Center, you can forget about civil rights," commission member Peter Kirsanow said.
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
2,608
0
0
The whole problem in Europe and particulary in Finland is social security.

S-O-C-I-A-L S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Are any of the Europeans on this board not rabid patriots that are essentially cheerleaders for their own country/Europe?
Ok I'll bite.

I don't necessarily agree with everything DaFinn says, and Im definitely not a Europe cheerleader.
But he is right, the social security standards in many European countries are easy to abuse.

I'm not very familiar with the social security policies in Finland, except that they're quite similar to those of Sweden, and here, they're far too easy to abuse, which by human nature, leads to lots of abuse.
This is becoming very expensive for those of us that do work, and pay taxes(lots of taxes, Sweden has the highest tax pressure in the world IIRC).

Now, this isn't exclusive to immigrants of course, there are many Swedes that abuse this system as well, but we can't do much about that, except try to make it harder to abuse, unfortunately in the name of some sort of social and economical equilibrium this is going very slowly, if anywhere at all.

Personally, I don't want to pay for neither Swedes nor immigrants who only want to use this system, but we can't very well "export" the Swedes to...whereever.
This is something that seems very hard to grasp for many people.

The situation in some of these new EU countries is another problem, and one that I won't comment much on, for two reasons:
For one, I don't like the EU much, I've never claimed that things are fine with it, quite the opposite, so touching upon this particular subject would be pretty redundant for me.
And secondly, I know too little about it, for example the situation in Slovenia that CanOWorms loves to talk about.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
Are any of the Europeans on this board not rabid patriots that are essentially cheerleaders for their own country/Europe?
Ok I'll bite.

I don't necessarily agree with everything DaFinn says, and Im definitely not a Europe cheerleader.
But he is right, the social security standards in many European countries are easy to abuse.

I'm not very familiar with the social security policies in Finland, except that they're quite similar to those of Sweden, and here, they're far too easy to abuse, which by human nature, leads to lots of abuse.
This is becoming very expensive for those of us that do work, and pay taxes(lots of taxes, Sweden has the highest tax pressure in the world IIRC).

Now, this isn't exclusive to immigrants of course, there are many Swedes that abuse this system as well, but we can't do much about that, except try to make it harder to abuse, unfortunately in the name of some sort of social and economical equilibrium this is going very slowly, if anywhere at all.

Personally, I don't want to pay for neither Swedes nor immigrants who only want to use this system, but we can't very well "export" the Swedes to...whereever.
This is something that seems very hard to grasp for many people.

The situation in some of these new EU countries is another problem, and one that I won't comment much on, for two reasons:
For one, I don't like the EU much, I've never claimed that things are fine with it, quite the opposite, so touching upon this particular subject would be pretty redundant for me.
And secondly, I know too little about it, for example the situation in Slovenia that CanOWorms loves to talk about.

I agree about everything you said, it is the abuse of the welfare system that is the problem, not immigrants, but it's hard to explain for non europeans.

The situation in Slovenia is pretty simple, Slovenia was created and Slovenians were made citizens, those who were not Slovenian were not automatically made citizens, they can however apply for citizenship and many do, to be able to do this you have to pass, among other tests, a language test and that is what makes it so hard for many of the elderly to become citizens, they simply don't speak the language and have no will to learn it.

I don't know of any nation who would make everyone in their country at any given time a citizen automatically, but if you realize that then people like canoworms wouldn't be able to use it to bash the new EU citizens, the facts that most of the things that are happening in Poland, Slovenia, Sweden, Germany or whatever country isn't even comparable to the Turkish treatment of Kurds does not stop them from bashing EU for not letting Turkey into the EU, if we did, they would bash EU for Turkeys sitiation though.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: DaFinn
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If there was ANY sort of human rights evaluation, how are these countries being accepted into the EU? Or are they already at an acceptable level? Why are the standards so low?

Anyone care to speculate on what the behind the scene agenda of the eu really is?

I have become convinced over the years that it is about competing with the us globally..
The buying power of the eu is staggering..

EU has allways been about creating a powerful market, that can compete globally with anybody. Including USA. And Euro has allways been about creating a stable strong currency as an alternative to a play chip called the dollar. Now that Far East is starting to accept Euro, it makes things better for Europe... i wish OPEC would switch to Euro aswell.

I think these anti-immigration, xenophobia, institutionalized racism, etc. is going to hinder their economic growth & power.

Careful now what you speak...

I am careful. I think you should be careful not to explode in anger over simple comments. It shows your blind, super-patriotism. I'm simply referencing the fact that they need immigration to compensate for low-birth rates, aging population, etc.

Anti-immigration? More than...?

-If there were not so many immigrants coming to Europe on false bases, just trying to come and live on our high standard of social security, this would not be a problem. Europe has created a high standard for us Europeans to enjoy. Ofcourse taxpayers don't like foreigners coming here and do nothing, just use all the benefits. Europe does not turn back justified refugees, we do our share.

So, these immigrants can never be Europeans?

Some European countries are restricting benefits, yet these problems are being accelerated.

Maybe taxpayers don't like paying for the benefits of people that look different than them. Do you think that Europe's welfare system thrives on homogeneity?

So, if 8% is on welfare, it's OK to demonize the other 92%? Your media probably demonizes them. You're probably drenched in hate by the media so much that you think they're all criminals and thugs who leech off of you.

Xenophobia?

-I refer to above statement, and add: In my country for example, we get a LOT of "economic refugees" who come from poor conditions, and are looking for a better life. Because of our high social security, they get a nice apartment, money each month worth more than their yearly income back home... THEY DO NOT WORK NOR DO ANYTHING TO PAY BACK, THEY JUST WANT TO ENJOY THE BENEFITS. I have nothing against people who come here to work, and make their own life better. That's ok. ALSO, these social slackers who come here very often get involved in crimes. Statistically over 50% of them have a criminal record. Ritual slaughterings, economic crimes, tax frauds, murdering their children for dating a wrong colored guy... Yes, since we can show over 50% of them are not fit for a civilised society why should we try to get more of them here???

Sounds like a lot of scapegoating going around here.

Institutionalized racism?

-Again referring to above statements. Most new laws/ rules are forced by puplic opinion. Puplic that want's to live in peace and harmony with everyone who adjusts. I do think that people in each country should live according to the laws and ways of that country. Thats why the laws exists. If people do not adjust, then they may leave. I personally would not like to have a neighbor, who slaughters a sheep in his backyard with a hammer while my son is out playing? Would you like such neighbor? If they want to do it, fine. Just thay can do it elsewhere.

The public sentiment is a problem. It seems that you want them to bleach their skin, drop their culture, etc. It seems that the society's sentiment is a contributing problem.

Some countries have special rules about children born there. Why are they not even considered citizens? Why do they have different citizenship requirements? Ethnicity based citizenship is disgusting, plain and simple. Why alienate a group of your people by making them second-class "citizens"? It's a never-ending cycle. Instead, accept them. I feel sorry for these people... they live in a country where they're born in and live in, and yet they're never considered a real member of society.

Too much alienation. The media portrays them as villains, society hates them, growing white supremacist xenophobic political groups, etc.

ANYWAY, ALL THESE THREADS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND EUROPE. SOMEONE LIVING IN US? IN A COUNTRY THAT ALLMOST EXPELLED ALL ARABS AFTER 9/11. THAT IS BRINGING THEIR MORAL STANDARDS TO THE REST OF THE WORLD BY TORTURING AND HUMILIATING PRISONERS, AND TOTALLY DISRECARDING ALL INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS. THAT IS REQUIRING AIRLINES TO SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS AND BACKROUND INFO AND WHAT NOT FROM PEOPLE COMING TO VISIT THEIR COUNTRY. US IS NOT GETTING THESE "SOCIAL SECURITY SLACKERS" BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOCIAL SECURITY. BABIES DON'T GET TREATED, BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS CANNOT AFFORD INSURANCE. AND, THEIR OWN MINORITIES... Blah, don't even want to start about the rights of black people, hispanics, past violations. Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate to US.

What is this garbage?

I understand Europe. I've been there and experienced this first-hand. Just because you're not American doesn't mean you can't talk about the US in Iraq. I don't ever want to see you in a thread regarding the US now, considering your view here. It's a double standard, just like what's happening to the immigrants and minorities in Europe.

So you've basically acknowledged some problems, but you won't acknowledge the affect or results.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Mardeth
The whole problem in Europe and particulary in Finland is social security.

S-O-C-I-A-L S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y.

That's probably only one of many problems. It's not as simple as there being one culprit.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: Sunner
Are any of the Europeans on this board not rabid patriots that are essentially cheerleaders for their own country/Europe?
Ok I'll bite.

I don't necessarily agree with everything DaFinn says, and Im definitely not a Europe cheerleader.
But he is right, the social security standards in many European countries are easy to abuse.

I'm not very familiar with the social security policies in Finland, except that they're quite similar to those of Sweden, and here, they're far too easy to abuse, which by human nature, leads to lots of abuse.
This is becoming very expensive for those of us that do work, and pay taxes(lots of taxes, Sweden has the highest tax pressure in the world IIRC).

Now, this isn't exclusive to immigrants of course, there are many Swedes that abuse this system as well, but we can't do much about that, except try to make it harder to abuse, unfortunately in the name of some sort of social and economical equilibrium this is going very slowly, if anywhere at all.

Personally, I don't want to pay for neither Swedes nor immigrants who only want to use this system, but we can't very well "export" the Swedes to...whereever.
This is something that seems very hard to grasp for many people.

The situation in some of these new EU countries is another problem, and one that I won't comment much on, for two reasons:
For one, I don't like the EU much, I've never claimed that things are fine with it, quite the opposite, so touching upon this particular subject would be pretty redundant for me.
And secondly, I know too little about it, for example the situation in Slovenia that CanOWorms loves to talk about.

I agree about everything you said, it is the abuse of the welfare system that is the problem, not immigrants, but it's hard to explain for non europeans.

The situation in Slovenia is pretty simple, Slovenia was created and Slovenians were made citizens, those who were not Slovenian were not automatically made citizens, they can however apply for citizenship and many do, to be able to do this you have to pass, among other tests, a language test and that is what makes it so hard for many of the elderly to become citizens, they simply don't speak the language and have no will to learn it.

I don't know of any nation who would make everyone in their country at any given time a citizen automatically, but if you realize that then people like canoworms wouldn't be able to use it to bash the new EU citizens, the facts that most of the things that are happening in Poland, Slovenia, Sweden, Germany or whatever country isn't even comparable to the Turkish treatment of Kurds does not stop them from bashing EU for not letting Turkey into the EU, if we did, they would bash EU for Turkeys sitiation though.

No, the Slovenia situation is not simple. If you were of a certain ethnic group, you were automatically given citizenship. Everyone else had to apply. Many had problems and 95% of the population voted that these minorities are not humans.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
An enlarged EU fans the fears of Europe's Muslims
By Roula Khalaf, Joshua Levitt and Stefan Wagstyl
Published: May 12 2004 5:00 | Last Updated: May 12 2004 5:00

Ali, a 25-year-old Egyptian born engineer who lives in the UK, has little reason to welcome the enlargement of the European Union.

"I've been here for years but I'm thinking of going home," he says, standing outside the Regent's Park mosque in London.

"With my beard I'm having trouble finding a job and now more east Europeans are coming, companies won't need to employ me at all."

As the EU celebrates its enlargement, Muslims - who make up the largest minority community in Europe - feel left out.

Many are struggling to distance themselves from an extremist minority and show that they too are good European citizens.

Beate Winkler, director of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, the EU's race relations watchdog, says enlargement has increased the sense of alienation.

She sees a parallel with the way that German unification affected German Muslims: "German Muslims said to other Germans 'You have welcomed the people from eastern Germany very warmly, but you never welcomed us'," says Ms Winkler, who worked for the German government at the time.

A lot of recent hostility to Muslims dates back to the 2001 al-Qaeda attacks, which were followed by a surge in anti-Muslim racist violence. At the Regent's Park mosque the challenges for Muslims are clear. A police notice on a pillar explains the presence of officers in the street during Friday prayers.

It says Muslims are sometimes badly portrayed in the tabloid press and that this is unfortunately believed by many people. But it warns that demonstrations outside the mosque, while understandable given world tensions, do nothing for the reputation of the vast majority of worshippers.

Young Muslims at the mosque say that the fight against terrorism and the rising police scrutiny of Muslim communities are making their life difficult. The frustrations are all the greater today, with the enlargement of the EU to new, mostly central and eastern European countries.

Sana Ullah, a religious teacher originally from Pakistan, says he is grateful to have raised three children to become doctors in the UK.

"They're happy here and there are jobs. This country is rich enough to accommodate us and the Poles and the Hungarians," he says.

"The problem is that we feel the media and others don't understand Muslims; some use bad language when our women walk on the streets. And with enlargement, there will be more Europeans who say that we are not good, more people who are against Muslims."

The sentiments are similar in France, home to over 4m of the new EU's 12m Muslims. Rachid Ben Issa, an Algerian community leader who lived in France until recently, says the alienation of European Muslims stems from many years of frustrations. "We feel unloved and excluded," he says.

In Spain, after the Madrid bombings, which have been blamed on a group composed mostly of Spanish-resident Moroccans, Muslim leaders in big cities denounced Islamic militancy.

But in the fruit farms in the south, Moroccan and sub-Saharan migrant labourers find themselves competing with Poles and others imported under government-sponsored schemes from eastern Europe. Unemployed Moroccans say they are suffering from racial discrimination by farmers.

Katinka Barysch, a researcher at the London-based Centre for European Reform, says people from the new EU states competing with North African immigrants have an advantage because east Europeans are better educated.

There are big cultural differences among Europe's Muslims, but they are united in their sense of the discrimination they feel from the non-Muslim population.

Some European Muslim leaders say they would feel more at home in the EU if it were eager about starting accession talks with Turkey now that it has embraced 10 mainly Christian states and is planning to accept two more - Bulgaria and Romania - in 2007.

Mr Ben Issa says bluntly: "Europe is now affirming that it wants a Christian Europe - even Turkey's hopes for joining the EU are being played down."

However, Ms Winkler says the priority should be to make a success of the current round of enlargement, including the integration of ethnic, national and religious minorities.

"We have to establish and strengthen relations among the different minorities in the EU on the basis of common respect for human rights."
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I think that while CanoWorms does beat the dead horse, a lot of of European resdients here ignore the comments and try to deflect the criticism. That doesn't mean I'm a European basher though....just something I've observed
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
DaFinn, Sunner, Mardeth, Czar and others

one advice

DON'T FEED THE TROLL

thx

goodbye

At least one troll won't be in this thread! Thanks for leaving. However, others are welcome to post since they add to the discussion, not try to deflect it like you.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I expect the EU to be like anything else in Europe. Wishful thinking but will eventually crumble under its own weight.

And, lets talk also about the human rights in USA. More specifically the rights of prisoners of war... no wait, what are the people in Quantanamo called again?

Illegal combatants, you know, the people who arent part of a sanctioned military force and thus arent covered under the geneva convention.

We will make an example of them by letting them rot and rot and rot.