mining on titan

[amish]

the moon titan may have liquid methane rain. would it be possible in the distant future to "mine" this methane?

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: amish
the moon titan may have liquid methane rain. would it be possible in the distant future to "mine" this methane?

If you want to burn the methane for energy, you're going to need oxygen too.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: amish
the moon titan may have liquid methane rain. would it be possible in the distant future to "mine" this methane?

If you want to burn the methane for energy, you're going to need oxygen too.

So drag it over to Io and get some ice and use electrolysis... jeez! Do we have to think of everything?

We'd have to be pretty desperate here on Earth to want to go halfway across the solar system for some LNG. I suspect that even if fossil fuels run dry, it'll still be easier/cheaper to switch to renewable alternatives (like hydrogen/fuel cells, or ethanol-based fuels) than to try to get fuel from Titan back to Earth.

 

[everman]

If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
So drag it over to Io and get some ice and use electrolysis... jeez! Do we have to think of everything?

We'd have to be pretty desperate here on Earth to want to go halfway across the solar system for some LNG. I suspect that even if fossil fuels run dry, it'll still be easier/cheaper to switch to renewable alternatives (like hydrogen/fuel cells, or ethanol-based fuels) than to try to get fuel from Titan back to Earth.

Strap a rocket on that puppy and we'll splash her down in the Pacific. Unless, of course, it's larger than Earth, which it probably is. 😀

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Matthias99
So drag it over to Io and get some ice and use electrolysis... jeez! Do we have to think of everything?

We'd have to be pretty desperate here on Earth to want to go halfway across the solar system for some LNG. I suspect that even if fossil fuels run dry, it'll still be easier/cheaper to switch to renewable alternatives (like hydrogen/fuel cells, or ethanol-based fuels) than to try to get fuel from Titan back to Earth.

Strap a rocket on that puppy and we'll splash her down in the Pacific. Unless, of course, it's larger than Earth, which it probably is. 😀

It's not bigger than the Earth itself, but it is bigger than our own moon. If it came anywhere near Earth the gravitational forces would probably exterminate most life on Earth.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm assuming you want to "mine" it so we can bring it back here and use it for energy...
Yes, it would be possible, but unless I'm overlooking something, it would be stupid as well. Just a simplified physics point of view: you've got to get it away from Titan... that requires moving it off the planet... PE = mgh, where g is going to decrease with the square of the distance from the center of titan. Without calculating the energy contained in 1 kilogram of methane, I'm just going to guess that it's less than the energy needed to get it back to earth even under the most ideal of methods. (barring a wormhole or something equally exotic). I could be wrong... it's just my intuition, not based on actual numbers..

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Pizza brings up a good point.

It would probably 'cost' more energy to go there and bring it back than it would produce.

 

[Gilby]

Originally posted by: everman
If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

Antimatter? Eventually solar power should provide us with all we need. It pumps out an amazing amount, we just need to effectively harness it. Solar cells in orbit somehow beaming the power to earth would be my guess.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Gilby

Originally posted by: everman
If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

Antimatter? Eventually solar power should provide us with all we need. It pumps out an amazing amount, we just need to effectively harness it. Solar cells in orbit somehow beaming the power to earth would be my guess.

The further you get away from the sun, the less solar power you have. If you want to ever get away from Earth (space exploration rings a bell?) you therefor will need a different source of power. We can create antimatter, the problem we are now facing is not only creating larger quantities of it, but also containing and storing it safely.

If we'd build a huge particle accelerator in space with a lot of solar panels the panels could power it, and allow the creation of anti-matter. You then need strong electromagnetic fields though to separate the matter from the anti-matter, and even stronger electromagnetic fields to keep the anti-matter under control. Note that if any of the fields would fail for whatever reason the anti-matter could come into contact with matter, and you'd suddenly need to build a new particle accelerator.

Another possibility is to try and harness the immense energy contained in small black holes, but that might prove even harder than containing anti-matter.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: Gilby

Originally posted by: everman
If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

Antimatter? Eventually solar power should provide us with all we need. It pumps out an amazing amount, we just need to effectively harness it. Solar cells in orbit somehow beaming the power to earth would be my guess.

The further you get away from the sun, the less solar power you have. If you want to ever get away from Earth (space exploration rings a bell?) you therefor will need a different source of power. We can create antimatter, the problem we are now facing is not only creating larger quantities of it, but also containing and storing it safely.

If we'd build a huge particle accelerator in space with a lot of solar panels the panels could power it, and allow the creation of anti-matter. You then need strong electromagnetic fields though to separate the matter from the anti-matter, and even stronger electromagnetic fields to keep the anti-matter under control. Note that if any of the fields would fail for whatever reason the anti-matter could come into contact with matter, and you'd suddenly need to build a new particle accelerator.

Another possibility is to try and harness the immense energy contained in small black holes, but that might prove even harder than containing anti-matter.

And, if you think about it, the antimatter becomes just a way to transport energy. The energy really came from solar energy. Much the way people are touting hydrogen fueled cars are forgetting that the hydrogen is just merely a means to transport the energy... energy was used elsewhere to convert water to hydrogen (or some other process that yields hydrogen.) That energy either comes from solar, wind, hydroelectric, fossil fuels, or nuclear, [edit: or non-fossil fuels such as burning corn stalks]. AFAIK, these are the only available means for us to readily produce energy. Anything else is just a storage/transportation means for that energy.

btw, what small black holes are there for us to harness the energy from? I've heard we'll be creating a few on earth once the new particle accelerator in Europe is online.. but it's not yet, plus I think the energy out would be less than the energy in to create the black hole in the first place. (But, I'm not certain, since now we're talking about mass converting to energy)

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: everman
If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

And how would we produce antimatter without another form of energy input like methane? 😕

 

[SagaLore]

What we really need is to create our own miniature folded space, basically a black hole with controls. We could feed it tons of energy, then later use a technique that causes the fold to emit the energy. Basically a spacetime capacitor.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: amish
the moon titan may have liquid methane rain. would it be possible in the distant future to "mine" this methane?

If you want to burn the methane for energy, you're going to need oxygen too.

So drag it over to Io and get some ice and use electrolysis... jeez! Do we have to think of everything?

We'd have to be pretty desperate here on Earth to want to go halfway across the solar system for some LNG. I suspect that even if fossil fuels run dry, it'll still be easier/cheaper to switch to renewable alternatives (like hydrogen/fuel cells, or ethanol-based fuels) than to try to get fuel from Titan back to Earth.

Europa is the one that's covered in ice. Io has lots of sulphur. 😛

And heck with all this mining - just stick some rockets on the moon, and send the whole thing here and have it orbit opposite our own moon. Double the tidal forces at the same time, and harvest that energy too.
So there's the plan....let's get to it! Anyone? No? Anyone......hm.


Antimatter has been mentioned - it's little more than an energy storage medium, as are fossil fuels. Fossil fuels react (burn) to release their stored energy. Antimatter would be combined with matter to release its energy.

What we really need is to create our own miniature folded space, basically a black hole with controls. We could feed it tons of energy, then later use a technique that causes the fold to emit the energy. Basically a spacetime capacitor.

There's been talk of being able to create tiny black holes within the next two decades. However, they would be so small that they'd disintegrate very rapidly. Anything too large, and you could have problems, like when the laboratory is sucked in and efficiently converted into a huge burst of X-rays.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: amish
the moon titan may have liquid methane rain. would it be possible in the distant future to "mine" this methane?

If you want to burn the methane for energy, you're going to need oxygen too.

So drag it over to Io and get some ice and use electrolysis... jeez! Do we have to think of everything?

We'd have to be pretty desperate here on Earth to want to go halfway across the solar system for some LNG. I suspect that even if fossil fuels run dry, it'll still be easier/cheaper to switch to renewable alternatives (like hydrogen/fuel cells, or ethanol-based fuels) than to try to get fuel from Titan back to Earth.

Europa is the one that's covered in ice. Io has lots of sulphur. 😛

And heck with all this mining - just stick some rockets on the moon, and send the whole thing here and have it orbit opposite our own moon. Double the tidal forces at the same time, and harvest that energy too.
So there's the plan....let's get to it! Anyone? No? Anyone......hm.


Antimatter has been mentioned - it's little more than an energy storage medium, as are fossil fuels. Fossil fuels react (burn) to release their stored energy. Antimatter would be combined with matter to release its energy.

What we really need is to create our own miniature folded space, basically a black hole with controls. We could feed it tons of energy, then later use a technique that causes the fold to emit the energy. Basically a spacetime capacitor.

There's been talk of being able to create tiny black holes within the next two decades. However, they would be so small that they'd disintegrate very rapidly. Anything too large, and you could have problems, like when the laboratory is sucked in and efficiently converted into a huge burst of X-rays.

Actually, I believe they're thinking they will be producing a few black holes every now and then in less than 5 years.

 

[everman]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: Gilby

Originally posted by: everman
If we ever got to the point where we were to colonize the system of moons around saturn, I would be leaning towards us having a better means of energy production than via chemicals like methane. Perhaps something like antimatter. (a long long long ways away)

Antimatter? Eventually solar power should provide us with all we need. It pumps out an amazing amount, we just need to effectively harness it. Solar cells in orbit somehow beaming the power to earth would be my guess.

The further you get away from the sun, the less solar power you have. If you want to ever get away from Earth (space exploration rings a bell?) you therefor will need a different source of power. We can create antimatter, the problem we are now facing is not only creating larger quantities of it, but also containing and storing it safely.

If we'd build a huge particle accelerator in space with a lot of solar panels the panels could power it, and allow the creation of anti-matter. You then need strong electromagnetic fields though to separate the matter from the anti-matter, and even stronger electromagnetic fields to keep the anti-matter under control. Note that if any of the fields would fail for whatever reason the anti-matter could come into contact with matter, and you'd suddenly need to build a new particle accelerator.

Another possibility is to try and harness the immense energy contained in small black holes, but that might prove even harder than containing anti-matter.

And, if you think about it, the antimatter becomes just a way to transport energy. The energy really came from solar energy. Much the way people are touting hydrogen fueled cars are forgetting that the hydrogen is just merely a means to transport the energy... energy was used elsewhere to convert water to hydrogen (or some other process that yields hydrogen.) That energy either comes from solar, wind, hydroelectric, fossil fuels, or nuclear, [edit: or non-fossil fuels such as burning corn stalks]. AFAIK, these are the only available means for us to readily produce energy. Anything else is just a storage/transportation means for that energy.

btw, what small black holes are there for us to harness the energy from? I've heard we'll be creating a few on earth once the new particle accelerator in Europe is online.. but it's not yet, plus I think the energy out would be less than the energy in to create the black hole in the first place. (But, I'm not certain, since now we're talking about mass converting to energy)

Well there also the theorized "dark matter" which may make up a large amount of the universe. We don't know much about it but I'm open to options. I don't really put much faith in current figures such as 8oz might have enough energy to evaporate the earth's oceans(one figure I remember from somewhere).

As for creating anti-matter. Use solar energy to power your anti-matter production facility.
As long as we have a star, we should harness its energy (because there's a lot). A dyson sphere would be nice for doing that 🙂

 

[Jeff7]

A dyson sphere would be nice for doing that

Of course, I've read about how much material it would take to actually create a Dyson Sphere. 12,000 planets is the estimate for a 100m thick sphere. And it would have to be extremely strong stuff too.

But yes, solar energy is effectively limitless - and if you've got such long range goals that will require more than one solar lifetime, then we'll probably have technology by then that'll let us all move to another star system.

 

[Calin]

A ring would be much cheaper - see the Ring's trilogy (Ringworld, Ringworld's Engineers, Ringworld's Children, Protector)
The books were very entertaining, and quite interesting in most aspects

Calin

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

It's not bigger than the Earth itself, but it is bigger than our own moon. If it came anywhere near Earth the gravitational forces would probably exterminate most life on Earth.

No, it will not. If it remains on Moon orbit or a more distant one, there won't be problems more important than higher tides and maybe some earthquakes.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Calin

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

It's not bigger than the Earth itself, but it is bigger than our own moon. If it came anywhere near Earth the gravitational forces would probably exterminate most life on Earth.

No, it will not. If it remains on Moon orbit or a more distant one, there won't be problems more important than higher tides and maybe some earthquakes.

'If' is the right way to say that 🙂

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Calin
A ring would be much cheaper - see the Ring's trilogy (Ringworld, Ringworld's Engineers, Ringworld's Children, Protector)
The books were very entertaining, and quite interesting in most aspects

Calin

Of course, the 'floor' material for the size of ring described in those books (~1AU radius, IIRC) has to have a tensile strength approaching that of the Strong Nuclear Force (that is, it has to be about as hard to break it as it would be to pull the nucleus of an atom apart). 😛

 

[Calin]

The tension in the ring would be less that you think, with a well choosen rotational speed (tension zero for angular velocity zero). Increasing the angular velocity will certainly increase the strength needed (and I am not an construction engineer)

 

[thelostjs]

seems like there was an article in discover a few months back about some ludicris amount of solid methane of some sort underneath the oceans they were hauling it up and setting it on fire so i imagine it could be used for power.. and best of all it is produced by bacteria so it would be renewable
its probably not right for me to post this here... but whatever i saw a picture of this stuff lit on fire... which means through it in a bolier and poof you have unlimited energy

The latest and greatest is the discovery of a very wierdo worm living on methane hydrate extrusions in the Gulf of Mexico. Methane hydrate is solid ("frozen") at the bottom of seas and oceans, even though the temperature is above what is sealevel freezing for this chemical - the pressure there allows the solid state to maintain despite a "non-freezing" temperature (but, never fear, it's cold anyway).
There is estimated to be just one humongous lot of this methane hydrate just under the seafloor along the continental shelves and since methane is just the greenhouse gas par excellence, we better hope that the oceans don't warm up enough to turn the solid hydrate to gas. Here and there the hydrate extrudes out from under the sediment and this was the locus of the recent discovery of ...


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Hydrates
These gas hydrates are actually natural methane-water ices, which form under conditions of high pressure and low temperature in many areas worldwide. Gas hydrate is a crystalline solid consisting of gas molecules, usually methane, each surrounded by a cage of water molecules. It looks very much like water ice. Methane hydrate is stable in ocean floor sediments at water depths greater than 300 meters and, where it occurs, it is known to cement loose sediments in a surface layer up to several hundred meters thick.

 

[thelostjs]

"Geologists have long suspected that the seafloor is dotted with deposits of a slushy mix of methane and water, but the Resolution?s crew was the first to measure how much is actually there. The amount is stunning. Along Blake Ridge alone, 250 miles off South Carolina, are 35 billion tons of buried methane, equivalent to the United States? natural-gas consumption over 105 years."
-- Discover Magazine

 

[Gilby]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

A dyson sphere would be nice for doing that

Of course, I've read about how much material it would take to actually create a Dyson Sphere. 12,000 planets is the estimate for a 100m thick sphere. And it would have to be extremely strong stuff too.

A sphere is overkill. Try a ring.

But yes, solar energy is effectively limitless - and if you've got such long range goals that will require more than one solar lifetime, then we'll probably have technology by then that'll let us all move to another star system.

Yup.

There are many things that sci-fi authors might be way off on, but an eventual reliance on solar power is not one of them.