Minimum wage - it helps poor people

[matt0611]

The shame; depriving hard-working Americans of all those wonderful $100/week jobs...

Better to make $100 /week then $0 / week

 

[Phokus]

Better to make $100 /week then $0 / week

LMAO, conservatives literally want us to go backwards so we're closer to parity with 3rd world countries.

 

[Patranus]

LMAO, conservatives literally want us to go backwards so we're closer to parity with 3rd world countries.

The "progressives" are going to turn this into a 3rd world country.

Hint: When you export nothing you are in trouble.

Hell, farmers cannot even grow crop to sell outside of the country without the government nocking down their door and telling them how much crop they can grow. You think production would be encouraged....nope....not by the "progressive".

 

[matt0611]

LMAO, conservatives literally want us to go backwards so we're closer to parity with 3rd world countries.

People in factories making low wages are AHEAD of people sitting at home doing nothing, not behind.

 

[JSt0rm]

The shame; depriving hard-working Americans of all those wonderful $100/week jobs...

he is mad cuz those are the level of jobs he goes after. :biggrin:

 

[Phokus]

People in factories making low wages are AHEAD of people sitting at home doing nothing, not behind.

Wait wait wait, i thought trickle down economics as supposed to be the rising tide that lifts all boats? If our wages decrease to $100 a week, that goes against that retarded conservative idea, doesn't it?

 

[matt0611]

Wait wait wait, i thought trickle down economics as supposed to be the rising tide that lifts all boats? If our wages decrease to $100 a week, that goes against that retarded conservative idea, doesn't it?

$0 -> $100 is a decrease?

I'm not a believer in "trickle down economics" either.

 

[Phokus]

$0 -> $100 is a decrease?

I'm not a believer in "trickle down economics" either.

If you relieve all restrictions on trade and get rid of minimum wage, it bids wages down because supply is much greater than demand.

I guess you're a believer in 'Americans living in mud huts and eating dirt'.

 

[matt0611]

If you relieve all restrictions on trade and get rid of minimum wage, it bids wages down because supply is much greater than demand.

I guess you're a believer in 'Americans living in mud huts and eating dirt'.

This is true, but wouldn't that lower the cost of creating all the goods the prices will come down thereby increasing peoples real wages for everyone?

Are you saying the way to be prosperous is for some people just not to work at all? But its ok since the peolpe who are working have a high wage mandated by law?

And no, I am not a believer in 'Americans living in mud huts and eating dirt', I believe getting rid of the minimum wage will help the economy and lift peoples wages in the long run. Whats with the attacks?

 

[Hacp]

Poor people should help themselves. I'm tired of pandering to poor people. What about regular people who work hard and play by the rules? Nope, they get to pay taxes to subsidize the poor.

 

[Phokus]

This is true, but wouldn't that lower the cost of creating all the goods the prices will come down thereby increasing peoples real wages for everyone?

Not when there's a nearly limitless supply of labor in this world and the ease in which you can shift capital is so easy thanks to the internet/computing.

Some companies are beginning to shift manufacturing from China to Vietnam and other undeveloped countries because labor is getting to 'expensive' - which, if you think about how much your average Chinese manufacturer worker makes, is fucking ridiculous.

Global labor arbitrage is lowering the standard of living for Americans of all skill levels, not just the poor now.

edit:

Are you saying the way to be prosperous is for some people just not to work at all? But its ok since the peolpe who are working have a high wage mandated by law?

And no, I am not a believer in 'Americans living in mud huts and eating dirt', I believe getting rid of the minimum wage will help the economy and lift peoples wages in the long run. Whats

No, i'm saying that we should not be competing with 3rd world countries, especially not ones that gain a lot of their competitive advantage through currency manipulation.

And the whole 'minimum wage creates unemployment' is a total fallacy. If that were true, white collar jobs wouldn't be fleeing the country since most white collar jobs aren't anywhere near minimum wage. Why aren't white collar wages just bid down instead of going to India?

 

[Phokus]

Poor people should help themselves. I'm tired of pandering to poor people. What about regular people who work hard and play by the rules? Nope, they get to pay taxes to subsidize the poor.

This coming from an a-hole who steals his roommates belongings, that's rich.

 

[matt0611]

Not when there's a nearly limitless supply of labor in this world and the ease in which you can shift capital is so easy thanks to the internet/computing.

Some companies are beginning to shift manufacturing from China to Vietnam and other undeveloped countries because labor is getting to 'expensive' - which, if you think about how much your average Chinese manufacturer worker makes, is fucking ridiculous.

Global labor arbitrage is lowering the standard of living for Americans of all skill levels, not just the poor now.

How do you explain the rising wages of places like India and China? I mean, shouldn't their wages be very stagnant if they are just being exploited?

 

[Phokus]

How do you explain the rising wages of places like India and China? I mean, shouldn't their wages be very stagnant if they are just being exploited?

Of course their wages are rising? The demand for labor is rising over there while the demand for labor is going down in the US? That's the whole point - global labor arbitrage.

 

[Amused]

Of course their wages are rising? The demand for labor is rising over there while the demand for labor is going down in the US? That's the whole point - global labor arbitrage.

And let me get this right. By your logic, when the demand for something goes down, the proper response is to artificially raise the price of it?

 

[matt0611]

Of course their wages are rising? The demand for labor is rising over there while the demand for labor is going down in the US? That's the whole point - global labor arbitrage.

But the thing is, there is not a fixed amount of jobs in the world. We don't run out of jobs in that sense, there are always things people want and new jobs that can be created as we add people into the population. It will all balance out in the end is what I'm saying.

Anyway, I'm gonna sleep.

 

[nonlnear]

A plurality are not 'against' minimum wage. I'm sorry that you're unable to read and add

37.7 + 14.3 = 52 (increase minimum wage crowd + keep it at the current level)

46.8 + 1.3 = 48.1 (decrease minimum wage + eliminate it)

But this isn't an election. It's a debate about the causal link of an important factor in the labor market. As long as the split in the profession is anywhere more central than about 80/20 then it's fair to say that nobody in the profession really knows what the hell they are talking about. (Not that a strong consensus is a guarantee that the profession is right, but at least they would then understand their own models in a consistent manner...) The ones who do end up being right will have done so largely by coincidence, as they aren't even capable of convincing the people in the world who are most literate in that area of expertise.

 

[Phokus]

And let me get this right. By your logic, when the demand for something goes down, the proper response is to artificially raise the price of it?

By my logic, you raise tariffs on countries that are manipulating their currencies, subsidizing their industries with government money, completely ignore pollution, and have shit for labor laws (aka China)

 

[Amused]

By my logic, you raise tariffs on countries that are manipulating their currencies, subsidizing their industries with government money, completely ignore pollution, and have shit for labor laws (aka China)

You do know the history of passing protectionist laws during a recession don't you?

Last time we did it, we turned a bad recession into the great depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot–Hawley_Tariff_Act

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Phokus]

You do know the history of passing protectionist laws during a recession don't you?

Last time we did it, we turned a bad recession into the great depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You do realize that every single fucking industrialized nation rose to prominence via tariffs and quotas, right?

Japan literally kicked out foreign competition, subsidized Toyota and other big companies, even when they were producing shit, until they could compete on their own. Free trade retards in Japan like yourself were trying to convince the Japanese government to trade in silk and other Japanese natural resources (what little they had) and let the theory of 'comparative advantage' take it's course and just import all the cars and other finished goods instead of trying to compete. If the Japanese government listed to idiots like you, they would be a 3rd rate nation. This applies to almost every Asian nation, INCLUDING china, who, instead of doing tariffs manipulate their currency. South Korea followed the Japan model of limiting foreign competition and pumping government money into their own businesses. This also applies to the US and Great Britain and most European nations as well via tariffs. The US would have been CRUSHED by great britain without tariffs.

Economist Ha-Joon Chang is the foremost expert on this.

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Samaritans...9197633&sr=8-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-ojv5-b3U

You're right, those fail to learn history (i.e. YOU)

Interesting how I point out that China is one of the most protectionist countries and they have very high growth rates, yet you spew your retarded drivel. How do you not experience cognitive dissonance?

 

[Amused]

You do realize that every single fucking industrialized nation rose to prominence via tariffs and quotas, right?

Japan literally kicked out foreign competition, subsidized Toyota and other big companies, even when they were producing shit, until they could compete on their own. Free trade retards in Japan like yourself were trying to convince the Japanese government to trade in silk and other Japanese natural resources (what little they had) and let the theory of 'comparative advantage' take it's course and just import all the cars and other finished goods instead of trying to compete. If the Japanese government listed to idiots like you, they would be a 3rd rate nation. This applies to almost every Asian nation, INCLUDING china, who, instead of doing tariffs manipulate their currency. South Korea followed the Japan model of limiting foreign competition and pumping government money into their own businesses. This also applies to the US and Great Britain and most European nations as well via tariffs. The US would have been CRUSHED by great britain without tariffs.

Economist Ha-Joon Chang is the foremost expert on this.

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Samaritans...9197633&sr=8-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-ojv5-b3U

You're right, those fail to learn history (i.e. YOU)

Interesting how I point out that China is one of the most protectionist countries and they have very high growth rates, yet you spew your retarded drivel. How do you not experience cognitive dissonance?

:::sigh:::

Those countries introduced protectionist policies during periods of growth, NOT recession.

History has shown if you isolate yourself while your economy is in recession, it makes matters worse.

 

[Phokus]

:::sigh:::

Those countries introduced protectionist policies during periods of growth, NOT recession.

History has shown if you isolate yourself while your economy is in recession, it makes matters worse.

Yeah, bombed out Japan was in real great shape. I would have loved to see the alternate universe where Japan went laissez faire and had no government intervention in the aftermath of WWII.

In any case, you're arguing that China should be allowed to act as a belligerent protectionist while the US does nothing. This is why we're fucked, because of people like you.

 

[Craig234]

Matt, you need to get a little less ignorant about labor history and economics.

Your magic theory that eliminating the minimum wage leads to hire wages, is wrong.

 

[cubby1223]

By my logic, you raise tariffs on countries that are manipulating their currencies, subsidizing their industries with government money, completely ignore pollution, and have shit for labor laws (aka China)

So in other words, your solution here is to piss off the main funding source of your wet dream stimulus program?

 

[DanDaManJC]

But the thing is, there is not a fixed amount of jobs in the world. We don't run out of jobs in that sense, there are always things people want and new jobs that can be created as we add people into the population. It will all balance out in the end is what I'm saying.

Anyway, I'm gonna sleep.

Yeah we all agree on this point.. the problem is it'll take a generation or two for it to balance out --- and there's a shitton of balancing to be had. The average american has what... an income of $40k/year and the average for indians and chinese is... a couple hundred? I know at least half of India is literally still living in grass hut style poverty.

Yeah in the long run when China and India catch up to the west all will be will, they'll be powerful trading partners like (rich) Europe is now... but this awkward balancing act in between is gunna fuck over americans in the short term (ie the next generation or two).