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Minimum Wage increase

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Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
I call bullsh!t on this whole theory - we've been raising the minimum wage in FL for 3 years now, and my area still has a dirt cheap cost of living. Companies are not going to go out of business over a buck and some change added to the minimum wage, and prices are not going to skyrocket on your fscking big mac meals.

Besides - how many people actually make minimum wage? My company (a pizza shop) has been virtually unaffected by the wage increases - we already pay the majority of our workers more than the proposed increase - but to cover cost increase when it comes to new employees who start at the bottom of the ladder, added a $.25 delivery fee to all orders. Big deal.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: blackllotus
I don't see the value in trying to protect companies that can't survive without paying their workers slave wages

$7.25 an hour is hardly a "living wage".

As I said, this will have no affect to actual hard working Americans.

Big business will most likely benefit the most from this legislation. Kids will now have more money to buy Ipods, CD's, and PS3's.


This is true, kids do tend to spend almost 100% of their money.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
So we can all agreed this does nothing bad, but might have a potential upside? So whats there to argue about? NEXT!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
"No. Actually raising minimum wage is about the most racist thing we can do. If you support minimum wage then you are a racist. "

And if you really believe that, you're whacked out in ways to strange to even comprehend...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
"No. Actually raising minimum wage is about the most racist thing we can do. If you support minimum wage then you are a racist. "

And if you really believe that, you're whacked out in ways to strange to even comprehend...

So you agree that cutting jobs for minorities is a good thing then? Making goods more expensive for the poor is a good thing? Living wage my arse. Go work in a factory and make 60-80K a year, work your way up, WORK and see what happens to your life.

hmmmm....P&N needs a huge dose of reality.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
No, spidey, you need a huge dose of reality. Very few factory workers make 60-80K per year, more like half that...

Following your reasoning, maybe employers should simply pay less per hour, and split 1 half-assed decent full time job into three really lousy part time jobs, just so there'll be more people employed. Employees could live in cardboard refrigerator box condominiums in the alleys of the investor class... or in illegal settlement shacks on the fringe of the cities, kinda like Brazil...
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
All this talk about increasing the minimum wage is nothing but political posturing.

They should increase the EITC rather than minimum wage.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: JhhnnNo, spidey, you need a huge dose of reality. Very few factory workers make 60-80K per year, more like half that...

Following your reasoning, maybe employers should simply pay less per hour, and split 1 half-assed decent full time job into three really lousy part time jobs, just so there'll be more people employed. Employees could live in cardboard refrigerator box condominiums in the alleys of the investor class... or in illegal settlement shacks on the fringe of the cities, kinda like Brazil...

Bullcrap. Ever work in a factory? The guys on the line make good money, plus they crave the overtime. Hell, I was making 12 bucks an hour 15 years ago working in a factory. A few years before that 9 bucks an hour moving furniture.

I think you're delusional. You will get paid if you work hard.

MOST factory workers make the median wage, which is by my guess 70K. Count overtime and it goes beyond that. It's nothing but class warefare....those that can do. Those that can't whine about the winners.

 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,806
10,100
136
Every business has a budget and a bottom line. As soon as you force them into the red, it will be directly passed onto the consumer as inflation.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: SirStev0
I actually think in theory it is a good idea. The problem is that in actuality it will do very little if not hurt the little guy.

It helps the little guy.

Attempting to force business to pay the worker more is an attempt to force trickle down economics.

No. Trickle down economics is the idea that if you give more money to the top, it will 'trickle down' to the poor. It's basically a blatant con to, well, get more money.

Raising the minimum wage doesn't give more to the top, like trickle-down. It simply has the government improve the natural capitalistic situation of wages tending to fall to sustinence levels absent some interference; in the negotiation between labor and employer, people have to eat, and end up poorly paid. In 1900, before the government intervened, the average American wage adjusted for inflation was $10,000.

Rich people DO NOT want to give up thier hard earned inherited money. It is a fact. Giving them tax cuts will not convince them to do it. Forcing them to pay each employee more just gives them a reason to cut jobs. It is an uphill battle either way.

Raising minimum wage generally does not increase unimployment.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Well said as usual, Jhhnn.

Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Nice spin, JD50. You didn't seem to think about it that way when the repubs gave investors an extra 5% by cutting capital gains taxes- for "doing nothing", as you put it...

They're not giving investors 5%, they're taking 5% less and encouraging investment. Are you against encouraging investment?

I think you can also say the same about a minimum wage increase no?

an increase in minimum wage could be a catalyst for weaning unemployed people off assistance and back to the workforce...

I dunno...just throwing that out there.

I doubt $.75 or whatever the increase is will be enough to get someone who makes more being on social security and doing nothing than working will make them all of the sudden want to work.

But you think that 5% more on the investments will make them invest when they woudn't have.

You have a $1 million pile of money you choose the best stocks you can for. Then you say that you will instead keep it in a box under the bed unless you get 5% more tax cut?

I don't think so. You invest it either way, because either way that's how you get the most for it.

The rhetoric about 'encouraging investment' seems to me mainly a slimy bit of rhetoric to cover up the fact that it's simply extra money for the inveting class of people.

They pay well for those little bits of propaganda. I think the money is better put to paying off our debt, or investing in the country, or helping the poor get educated.

The investing class should get a nice return, on average. Our current policies are radically re-distributionist of the nation's wealth to the top 1%.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Every business has a budget and a bottom line. As soon as you force them into the red, it will be directly passed onto the consumer as inflation.

Negligible inflation; and it will help the workers a lot; and it will help the economy for the new money to be spent. It's a mild, helpful, correction.
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Many adults make minimum wage, especially where it is over $7 an hour. In Washington State, minimum wage is so high, that many companies simply pay most of their employees minimum wage and then only give them raises if they move to a higher position.

Washington State saw a 30 cent rise in minimum wage as of January 1st. If you have 15 minimum wage workers (restaurants, etc), then you, as a business owner, just lost almost $10,000 for that year. If you're a small business owner, then you may have just lost %15-20 of your own pay. Perhaps that is not enough money for you to feel the need to be in business. Perhaps you should shut down and lay off all of your workers. Perhaps instead you should just cut back on the wages of the supervisors and managers who worked hard to be where they are at so that part-time school employees can have more money to buy CDs and video games.

Am I generalizing? Yes. Does this happen? You bet.
 

Shortass

Senior member
May 13, 2004
908
0
76
Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: blackllotus
I don't see the value in trying to protect companies that can't survive without paying their workers slave wages

$7.25 an hour is hardly a "living wage".

As I said, this will have no affect to actual hard working Americans.

Big business will most likely benefit the most from this legislation. Kids will now have more money to buy Ipods, CD's, and PS3's.


This is true, kids do tend to spend almost 100% of their money.

So do the working poor. This will help to stimulate the economies in impoverished regions and will encourage more spending. So.. it's a good thing regardless. Inflation for a minimal increase in pay to less than 1/4th the population (all of which spend nearly 100% of every penny earned)... nice try.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
This will not help the poor very much. Only 18% of those affected by this increase are in households at or below the poverty. The minimum wage increase would increase workers' wages whose hourly income is between $5.15 and $7.25 by $11 billion. A CBO study found that only $1.6 billion (15%) would go towards households at or below the poverty level.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The EITC is much more effective in helping people get out of poverty because that is exactly what it targets. Here is a couple scenarios the CBO looked at:

One option was to increase the subsidy rate for childless workers by 50 percent. Another option was to increase the subsidy rate for workers with three or more children by 25 percent. On the basis of data from the CPS, combining those options would have increased total EITC payments by roughly $2.4 billion in 2004, with workers in poor families receiving $1.4 billion of that total.

Source: CBO

The CBO was looking for scenarios that would increase EITC benefits to poor families similar to how much the increased minimum wage would. So out of a $2.4 billion increase, $1.4 billion goes to poor families. Compare that with an increased minimum wage that pays out an extra $11 billion, of which only $1.6 billion gets to poor households.

Quoted for Jhnn and Craig. Please explain why the method HombrePequeno linked wouldn't be a better choice.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I keep seeing people say ?It will help the little guy? or ?It will help the working poor? etc?

How many adults do you really know that have been on a job for any considerable amount of time that actually makes minimum wage? Heck, who do you know that currently makes under the NEW minimum wage of $7.25 (factoring in tips if they make them)?

Do any of YOU make under 7.25 an hour? In my area McDonalds is paying $12 an hour to start. Wendy?s was giving $5,000 a year sign on bonuses paid weekly. So my point is simple, if anyone who can hear a ?ding? and realize the fries are done can make $12 an hour WHO makes under $7.25 for any considerable amount of time?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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It's just a band-aid and a coverup for the real issue. Instead Congress and the media should be asking, "Why is the state of our economy such that the forces of supply and demand dictate such low wages for so many people?'

Could it be that because we made ourselved vulnerable to the economic force of Global Labor Arbitrage that the supply of labor has increased dramatically relative to the demand for labor?

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
The only thing that happens when you raise the minimum wage is it hurts most businesses. Fortunately we have Democrats to spew their garbage about how their helping the "little people". Apparently, they mean high schoolers.

Source

Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2004
According to Current Population Survey estimates for 2004, some 73.9 million American workers were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.8 percent of all wage and salary workers.1 Of those paid by the hour, 520,000 were reported as earning exactly $5.15, the prevailing Federal minimum wage, and another 1.5 million were reported earning wages below the minimum.2 Together, these 2.0 million workers with wages at or below the minimum made up 2.7 percent of all hourly-paid workers. Tables 1 - 10 present data on a wide array of demographic and socioeconomic characteristics for hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage. The following are some highlights from the 2004 data.

Minimum wage workers tend to be young. About half of all hourly-paid workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and about one-fourth were age 16-19. Among teenagers, about 9 percent earned $5.15 or less. About 2 percent of workers age 25 and over earned the minimum wage or less. Among those age 65 and over, the proportion was 4 percent. (See table 1 and table 7.)


About 4 percent of women paid hourly rates reported wages at or below the prevailing Federal minimum, compared with about 2 percent of men. (See table 1.)


Nearly 3 percent of white hourly-paid workers earned $5.15 or less, compared with about 2 percent for both blacks and Hispanics or Latinos. The figure for Asians was about 1 percent. Among whites and Hispanics or Latinos, women were about twice as likely as men to earn the Federal minimum wage or less. (See table 1.)


Never-married workers, who tend to be young, were more likely to earn the minimum wage or less than persons who are married. (See table 8.)


Among hourly-paid workers age 16 and over, about 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma but had not gone on to college earned the minimum or less, compared with about 1 percent for those who had obtained a college degree. (See table 6.)


Part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were much more likely than their full-time counterparts to be paid $5.15 or less (about 7 percent versus 1 percent). (See table 1 and table 9.)


By occupational group, the proportion of hourly-paid workers whose earnings were reported at or below $5.15 ranged from less than 1 percent for persons employed in management, professional, and related occupations, to about 9 percent for those in service occupations. About three in four workers earning $5.15 or less in 2004 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food service jobs. (See table 4.)


Among industry groups, the proportion of workers with reported hourly wages at or below $5.15 was highest in leisure and hospitality (about 15 percent). About three-fifths of all workers paid at or below the Federal minimum wage were employed in this industry, primarily in food services and drinking places. For many of these workers, tips supplement the hourly wages received. (See table 5.)


Among the four broad geographic regions, the West had the lowest proportion of hourly-paid workers with earnings at or below $5.15, at under 2 percent. This compared with about 3 percent for the other regions. In 2004, 24 states and the District of Columbia had a proportion of hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage that exceeded the national average (2.7 percent); 22 states had a lower proportion. It should be noted that some states have minimum wage laws establishing minimum wage standards that exceed the Federal level of $5.15 per hour. (See table 2 and table 3.)


The proportion of hourly-paid workers earning the prevailing Federal minimum wage or less has trended downward since 1979, when data first began to be collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
It's good to see that pretty much no one understands minimum wage, or what it actually does.

The good news is minimum wage won't matter until someone tries to make it an arbitrary 'living wage', at which time, with apologies to the socialists in the crowd, the Reaganomics crowd will have the right answer, though for the wrong reasons.
 

CityShrimp

Member
Dec 14, 2006
177
0
0
Could someone post some statistics on effects of raising minimum wage in the past?
I've been trying to find facts, i mean, unbiased (eh.. or at least, less biased) information that could reveal what's the actual effects of increasing the min. wage, but all the sites I can come up with are obviously biased :/ And most state the OTHER people's studies are faulty.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Nothing is free, everything has a cost.
The 1.7% of the population who is paid 5.15 an hour will either be

A. Let go
B. Recieve said raise

The end result is eventually costs catchup and they are in the same position they are now. You cant artificially raise the real wages of people. You need productivity to go along with that wage increase.

Personally I think this will lead to many low end jobs being erased. Not the min of min, but the ones make 6-7 bucks an hour. They will be replaced by a machine that doesnt cost as much and require benefits or insurance in case it slips and gets hurt.

You see it in the grocery stores already. Most are frantically working on eliminating the cashiers position with a computer. Replacing 10 cashiers with 10 computers and 1-2 service reps.

 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
How could it possibly be a bad thing? It's a good thing and long overdue

As stated in my OP. Why is it a good thing? I can't see it. Even reading all the responses to this discussion I still can't see it. Just "Its needed, and long overdue, and it's good" but no real concrete evidence how its good. Just speculation and "Kumbaya" feelings.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Raising the minimum wage is one of those feel-good-while-doing-nothing kind of agendas. The existence of the minimum wage itself is a good thing, as it protects low-scale adult workers (who need what little they get to survive) from unfair competition with teenage workers (who are working more for the experience than for the income), and it protects all workers from hourly wage abuse (by enforcing regulation, oversight, and documentation of wages earned vs. hours worked).
Believing that the minimum wage should be a "living wage" or any similar such notion, however, is completely ridiculous, ignorant, and even counter-productive to its actual intent. If that were actually true, then this meager raise is a slap in the face to those who actually do struggle to get by on low wages. Why do you not call for an increase to $20/hour?? ($20/hr., or $40k per year, is the current average hourly wage for American workers).

I am so happy, however, that Jhhnn and Craig234 have decided to baselessly insult everyone here who dares to question the actual value of their little feel-good agenda. Heaven forbid they actually get off their lazy asses and do something truly helpful for the poor, they'll just demand that others give them a pathetic little bump in the minimum wage and then wash their hands of it. Oh... but don't tell them that's all they're doing, their massive senses of self-denial will explode into rabid insulting pompousity.