Minimum drinking age?

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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If so, then do you think it should be reduced to 16-18, stay the same, or raised a few years?

i don't favor any drinking age, but if I were governor of my state, then I'd forfeit Federal highway funding by reducing the drinking age to 16-18.

I personally think that all the money saved from going after and locking up underage drinkers would be enough to replace the federal funds for highways.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,122
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If you can die for your country at 18, you should be able to drink at 18.
Everyone knows this.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
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Eliminate the federal government's "incentives" to have a drinking age and let the individual states deal with it completely.

I would like to eliminate a drinking age, but due to our culture it is necessary. Although, 21 is excessive. 18 is a good age, considering it is OK for military service.
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
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If you can die for your country at 18, you should be able to drink at 18.
Everyone knows this.

this ^

You can die but can't have a beer? Stupid. Either that or raise the age for the military to 21, which we know won't happen.

Holy shit, I got suckered into a P&N thread FFS.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
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If you can die for your country at 18, you should be able to drink at 18.
Everyone knows this.

This again. At 18 we can train you with top secret clearance, give you access to the country's secrets, teach you to kill your enemy, teach you to operate multi-million dollar war machines, and put you in the line of fire to die for your country...but you cant have a Sam Adams. :hmm:
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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I don't have a huge problem with lowering the drinking age(down to 18 but not lower) but if it's done, I think the drunk driving laws need to be toughened to the point of mandatory jail time of years (yes, multiple) if you drink and drive. If you kill someone, automatic life, no exceptions. And yes, I mean that.

To Gillbot...yes, that's an excellent idea. Can I ride on your coattails and let you lock the door on the way out?
 
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Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
I don't have a huge problem with lowering the drinking age but if it's done, I think the drunk driving laws need to be toughened to the point of mandatory jail time of years (yes, multiple) if you drink and drive. If you kill someone, automatic life, no exceptions. And yes, I mean that.

To Gillbot...yes, that's an excellent idea. Can I ride on your coattails and let you lock the door on the way out?

If you are on my coattails, don't you need to lock the door?

BTW, I think the drunk driving laws need toughened regardless anyway.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
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Drinking ages like blue laws are last gasp puritanical attempts to litigate morality...



who the frack cares if someone wants to buy beer on sunday as well..

I grew up in places where if a kid wanted a taste of wine at the dinner table he could thus never establishing the taboo complex..
 
May 16, 2000
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Best case, removal of all prohibition on personal choice issues.

Second best case, remove all such regulation 'in the home' with guardian consent and supervision, and switch public laws to a single 'age of majority' (either 18 or 21, both have merit). I can also see a reason for an intermediary age for some things (basically at common puberty), but not public drinking/drug use.

At the very least we need to reduce down to a single 'age of majority'. Splitting some things at 18 and some at 21 is ridonkulous.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,284
12,847
136
If you can die for your country at 18, you should be able to drink at 18.
Everyone knows this.

this ^

You can die but can't have a beer? Stupid. Either that or raise the age for the military to 21, which we know won't happen.

Holy shit, I got suckered into a P&N thread FFS.

show me where fighting for your country has any relation to being able to drink alcohol. possibly one of the dumbest reasons i've seen over and over again for reducing the drinking age.
there's a reason voting was changed to 18 (because if you're going to fight, you should be able to have a say in who is your commander in chief)


that being said, the only reason the drinking age is 21 is because states accept federal highway funds, IIRC. it's completely arbitrary. want to change that? get your state to reject federal funds (of course, highway is the biggest pot of $$ if i'm not mistaken, so good luck with that)
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
show me where fighting for your country has any relation to being able to drink alcohol. possibly one of the dumbest reasons i've seen over and over again for reducing the drinking age.
there's a reason voting was changed to 18 (because if you're going to fight, you should be able to have a say in who is your commander in chief)


that being said, the only reason the drinking age is 21 is because states accept federal highway funds, IIRC. it's completely arbitrary. want to change that? get your state to reject federal funds (of course, highway is the biggest pot of $$ if i'm not mistaken, so good luck with that)

Personally, I think being able to volunteer for DEATH is a good enough reason to be able to have a damn beer. I'm not for lowering the drinking age per-se, but I think the hypocrisy of volunteering for death while being prohibited from having a drink is fucking stupid. Raise one or lower the other, doesn't matter much for me.

The main thing that needs to happen is:
A) Make it MUCH harder to get a damn drivers license.
b) Make the punishment for drinking and driving much more severe.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,284
12,847
136
Personally, I think being able to volunteer for DEATH is a good enough reason to be able to have a damn beer. I'm not for lowering the drinking age per-se, but I think the hypocrisy of volunteering for death while being prohibited from having a drink is fucking stupid. Raise one or lower the other, doesn't matter much for me.

The main thing that needs to happen is:
A) Make it MUCH harder to get a damn drivers license.
b) Make the punishment for drinking and driving much more severe.

agreed on both A and B. i still don't see why having a drink matters so much to so many people. i enjoy alcoholic beverages, but not having them is not that big a deal to me, either.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Drinking ages like blue laws are last gasp puritanical attempts to litigate morality...



who the frack cares if someone wants to buy beer on sunday as well..

I grew up in places where if a kid wanted a taste of wine at the dinner table he could thus never establishing the taboo complex..


Nothing to do with puritanical anything.

Insurance Institute for Highway Safety,

http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/min_drinking_age/default.html

Protecting teens from the dangers of alcohol use and abuse:
wishful thinking versus science
Convened by Mothers Against Drunk Driving, American Medical Association, National Transportation Safety Board, and Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to support 21 minimum drinking age

Presentation by Adrian Lund, IIHS president
October 9, 2007 • Washington, DC

In 1972, at a conference on road safety in Canberra, Australia, William Haddon Jr., M.D., the first head of what is now the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and President of IIHS from 1969-1985, talked about the beginning of a transition
"away from a pre-scientific period. That is, from a period in which folk culture has dominated — in which virtually everyone, both in and out of public life, has been a self-certified expert with his own pet, dogmatically advanced panacea — in which the notion has been virtually absent that public and private conclusions, pronouncements and measures to reduce the losses should be based on well-done, carefully scientific determinations of relevance and efficacy rather than on the unsubstantiated assertions of some individual or group."
We are here today because this transition to science-based approaches to reducing the deaths and injuries from motor vehicle crashes is not yet complete. Thirty-five years later, John M. McCardell, Jr. has mounted a campaign to reduce the drinking age from 21 to 18 in the United States. His justification — a desire to reduce the clandestine and sometimes biologically dangerous levels of alcohol consumption among 18-20 year-olds — is laudable. However, his reasoning about what works is quintessentially pre-scientific. Highway safety policies need to be grounded in solid research, not wishful thinking. His arguments are demonstrably wrong. My comments today are limited to his two central theses:

  • that the benefits of the 21-year-old drinking age are unproven; and
  • that alcohol education for teens promises to be more effective in dealing with the problem of teen alcohol use and abuse.
Both theses are contradicted by fact.
Teen crashes vary with drinking age laws

On his website, Mr. McCardell says, "Advocates of the 21-year-old drinking age have long argued that the decrease in fatalities was a result of the lowered drinking age but cannot offer a cause and effect relationship."
That view ignores 30 years of research.
Status Report, April 9, 1974
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Status Report, July 15, 1981
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Status Report, July 15, 1981
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The truth is, the cause and effect are clear. lf we lower the drinking age, we will be killing more teens on the highway. Actions among the states in lowering, raising, lowering, and raising again the age at which it is legal to purchase alcohol have provided a series of opportunities to evaluate the effects of these changes on motor vehicle crashes.
In the 1960s and 70s, in the context of the Vietnam war and lowering the voting age to 18, many states also lowered the drinking age from 21 to 18.
History of US minimum legal drinking age (MLDA) laws
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IIHS's first study in 1974 looked at two states and one Canadian province that lowered the drinking age, carefully comparing their experience to that of adjacent states that did not change. That study showed that the number of 15-20 year-olds involved in fatal crashes increased in the jurisdictions that lowered the drinking age.
Subsequently, in the late 1970s, states began to increase drinking ages again. Again, it was possible to compare states that made this change to states that didn't. Again, we saw a change related to the drinking age — this time, fatal crash rates declined as teen drinking and teen drinking and driving declined.
IIHS has been a leader in studying the effect of drinking age, but it hasn't been alone.
The CDC identified many more strong, empirical studies examining the effects of either raising or lowering the minimum drinking age.
CDC review of evidence regarding interventions to reduce alcohol-impaired driving
Shults et al., 2001
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Although there's variation the effects are consistent: deaths go up when the drinking age is lowered and they go down when it is raised. The 21-year-old drinking age is saving lives.
Drinking education won't counteract easier availability of alcohol

While ignoring the vast literature confirming the public health benefit of the 21-year-old minimum drinking age, Mr. McCardell asserts that drinking education could effectively supplant and improve upon 21-year-old drinking laws in combating the problem of alcohol among 18-20 year-olds. What's the evidence?
Mr. McCardell offers none. Nor is there much in the way of evidence about what effect drinking education might have on 18-20 year-olds. However, there is evidence about the effects of driver education, which offers some insights about how drinking education and a drinking license, as recommended by McCardell, might affect teens.
It isn't encouraging.
Status Report, May 12, 1984
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Percent of students with crashes
by type of driver education
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DeKalb County, Georgia test of model driver education
Lund et al., 1986

  • Students assigned to SPC were at significantly greater hazard of crashing and of receiving traffic violations than control students.
  • No evidence that SPC reduced the per capita likelihood of crashes or violations
  • SPC drivers had more crashes and violations despite the fact that they were more skilled when licensed.
  • High school driver education courses do not decrease the crashes and violations among teenagers as a group.
  • Greater availability of driver's education leads to earlier licensure which in turn leads to more crashes and violations per capita.



Again, IIHS has done much of the research on driver education, a fair task since, in years past, much of the funding for driver education in high schools came from insurers. However, when IIHS studied the effects of driver education carefully in the 1970s, a main finding was that teen crashes tended to be higher when high school driver education was available. In the late 1970s, this correlation was confirmed when Connecticut stopped state funding for high school driver education, and many schools in the state dropped the course. The result was fewer teen crashes, based on our study that compared those schools with schools that continued to fund driver education locally.
In response to criticism that these driver education courses were too simplistic, the US DOT spent millions to develop a model course. It was called the Safe Performance Curriculum and was submitted to a proper study in DeKalb County, Georgia. When compared to other high school students who received either no driver education or a more basic information course, the result was the same: SPC increased the number of teens getting licensed and the number involved in crashes. This is an unintended consequence of driver education — it can encourage earlier licensure that is not offset by any improvement in knowledge or skill.
Driver education can help drivers learn to operate vehicles and to understand why traffic laws are what they are. Driver education, however, is not itself an effective public health strategy. Drinking education will teach teens about alcohol, but it may only produce better educated drinking and driving teenagers while at the same time making our highways more dangerous. McCardell offers no scientific evidence to the contrary.
Summary

The scientific evidence is clear.
Lowering the legal age to purchase and consume alcohol to 18 would increase the number of 18-20 year-olds killed or injured in motor vehicle crashes.
Summary
What does the evidence show?

  • Lowering the drinking age to 18 would increase the number of 18-20 year-olds dying on our nation’s highways
  • There is no evidence that drinking education will offset these effects
    • Evidence from driver education is that we could get more drinking teenagers as a result of drinking education as licensed teenagers will explain that schools have said they know how to drink



Others too would die in crashes involving drinking teenagers.
Experience with driver education suggests that drinking education wouldn't counteract this effect. In fact, one implication of driver education experience is that exposing students to drinking education could increase the number drinking. Receiving a license to drink could cause teens and some parents to conclude that the school thinks their teens will drink safely.
This is not the path to reducing the problem of teenage drinking — it is a proven formula for increasing the number of dead teens. Clandestine underage drinking is a problem, but lowering the drinking age is not a solution.