Mini Splits and manufacturers

[iRONic]

My 2 zone mini split system was silent and significantly less expensive to operate. A HUGE bonus was the ability to select a 'Dehumidify' function. The rooms were cool and the compressor didn't have to run as much.

 

[John Carmack]

Although, I have been rather fond of the idea of a mini-split system. It's probably more common given the computer-oriented focus of this forum, but I'm sure we've all had a computer that could be easily misconstrued for a space heater. Computers being sources of heat are why I like mini-splits as they work as you can install a unit in specific areas/rooms to combat hot spots. When I had my AC redone, I talked to them about potentially installing a mini-split or something in my computer room, but they assured me it would be fine. As you can guess, it isn't, and now I'm yet again using a fan in the room during warmer months even though its downstairs.

Every server and LAN room I've set foot in has used mini splits. That certainly makes it seem like it's the perfect device for targeted room cooling.

 

[paperfist]

Does your sister live near me?

I dunno your local... he’s a bit of a big wig now but he might know some guys in your area.

I’m sure you can get some union guys that do installs after hours for a lot less. I wouldn’t even ask that from those you already got quotes from.

Not sure about the mini splits but the other system with proper planning from a professional is just a matter of putting ducts together and smashing the walls. Well okay it’s a bitch when the gas line somehow got in the way of where you were running your trunk line

 

[rchunter]

You should check into Mitsubishi Mr. slim.
Those are some of the better ones on the market. They are quiet and efficient. I had one at my old place.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Electric can be brutally expensive when the temp drops if you don't have a good heat system. I don't know how well mini-splits heat. A regular heat pump isn't very efficient under 20 degrees and many units die in the winter because they burn out trying to keep up with heat loss /demand. My primary heat pump is set to shut down at 40 degrees and my system switches to a gas furnace at that point to address the deficiency.


For specific mini-split talk, I recently added a 750 square foot upstairs room/bathroom and had a Mitsubishi installed. It was probably $3k or so installed for a 12k btu unit (I had other things added on the order, so I don't recall the line items)....the unit was like $1500 if I had gone out and purchased it, but I live in a city, so I had to pay up as they only let licensed guys work on HVAC. They dealt with the labor and putting in a perfectly-sized slab for it...so I have no complaints. Once it was installed, they failed to wrap the lines 100% and it started dripping water down the wall inside. Make sure they insulate those lines really well...in the summer months, condensation appears quickly that you may not see in the colder months on exposed copper lines coming in. It seems to heat/cool fine for the space, but I haven't really tested it in extreme cold yet. I like the unit and the remote. We'll see how it holds up and performs.

I'm going to recommend though....another option you may want to look at is PTAC units for ground floor. That's what motels use....you install a wall sleeve and slide the unit in...seal around the edges. They can run on 110 or 220v and offer a heat strip. This is mainly because you mentioned 4 zones and one unit. Those only run $500-800 and don't require the unit to be charged as they're more like a AC unit. You may want to look at a 3 zone and get a PTAC so you have a "Backup" system in case something happens to your primary. I have a neighbor that's using one in her sun room and likes it.

 

[zinfamous]

hmm, I'll look into PTAC as this is the first I've heard about it. I'm not really thinking about winter heating because I have a gas-powered boiler for a radiant system (water; not steam), which works quite well. The furnace is old though, and not the most efficient, because the coldest months have seen gas bills up to $300 (3 floors, ~1700sq ft; half the basement is cold/drafty/leaky)...and I do need to replace the junction in one of the main floor radiators.

edit: Oh! those units are called ptac systems....yes I'm familiar with them, just didn't know that's what they were called....not sure I want my rooms looking like a motel room though, lol. That is also way too much of a footprint in these rooms

...I still haven't responded to the Mitsubish guy. I need to do that ASAP.

 

[skyking]

heat pumps are most efficient above 35 degrees F. Since you have an existing heating system to back it up, you can simply use that system when the heat pump gets out of the most efficient range of temperatures.

 

[mztykal]

I like my Daikin units as they perform just as well as the Mitsubishi ones I had but were half the price.

 

[NutBucket]

They're also a major player in the HVAC world so I certainly wouldn't hesitate to buy them either.

 

[zinfamous]

Well, after chatting with the mitsubishi guy a couple of times, I decided to hold off for a while. He offered a 2-zone system for $10k (living/dining and upstairs bedroom) but with limited compressor and so no room for expansion on the same unit. (apparently for 3-5 zone, they can work with a unit that can handle that range, but 2 zone is specific).

It just doesn't make any kind of $$$ sense to me.

Also in the meantime, I had been dealing with furnace issues because the boiler kept dumping water on me. Apparently, the heat was too high and water pressure was hitting the release valve. I think that for whatever reason, my boiler doesn't like being set at 180 F, and the first guy a couple of weeks ago, doing the furnace clean around, must have set it to 180, after noticing it was at 160--for a reason, apparently. I'm not sure if that is the case, but it's the only explanation I can think of because it never did this last year and I wasn't with this guy all the time because I was also walking around with their minisplit estimator.

The boiler dumped and shut itself down...thought that was odd, but it was warm for a few weeks so I shut it down and forgot about it. Last weekend, turned it back on and it dumped within 28 hours. 2nd guy spent some time with it and we noticed that it was quickly creeping up to 28psi before even hitting 180, so he set it to 160, and no problem.

Well, it shut down again, because thermostat was still wack. So I had to replace that myself, after learning how to hook up 2-wire heat-only furnace to a multi-wire thermostat (the cheapest one was actually heat+air, programmable, so I went with that). Anyway, old thermostat had always decided it was 60 F, wanted to set itself at 60 F with no adjustment, and so that was that. Everything seems to work again when you fix the actual issues.

 

[Greenman]

10k for a 2 zone mini split is pretty high. The equipment is probably $3500 retail.

 

[paperfist]

Sometimes the pressure relief valve on boilers will blow when the expansion tank is starting to go.

 

[zinfamous]

10k for a 2 zone mini split is pretty high. The equipment is probably $3500 retail.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I priced them at with my research. Of course, dude claimed that "mitsubishi does not sell their stuff online," and so they are likely knockoffs or you would need to confirm serial numbers with mitsu. I treated that as a grey area untruth, but whatever. Regardless, he says they will not install customer-supplied equipment. But, he wasn't offended by my offer and said he would be willing to work with something when it makes sense, so maybe later.

I also might be looking at Daikin in the area, because they seem to be very popular, well rated, and much more affordable.

In the meantime, focus on kitchen, much of which can be done myself (sticky tile is covering virgin oak hardwood--some deplorable savage covered that stuff up, so I have to pull it up, clean and sand it, stain it, rearrange fridge and cabinets). Only job I will hire out is electrician to do some re-wiring and updating (need to install at least 3 new outlets in the area, fix the wiring in some switches), and I want to install Dekton counters (this is all Kaido's fault) on top of my existing cabinetry, plus new sink. I "think" I can do all of this for under $5k, as I will tile the walls myself, already installed the new hood (which MOSTLY works!), floors and new island, (built or placed), myself.

 

[zinfamous]

Sometimes the pressure relief valve on boilers will blow when the expansion tank is starting to go.

yup, that was the thought, but the relief valve was never leaking, or persistently dripping when on. It was just one big blow out each time. Plus, we sat their and watched the psi gauge do weird things, very quickly.

...however, I didn't consider that the expansion tank might be getting @BoomerD - old. That's something...this 80% Vaillant furnace was apparently built in 94, so installed probably not-long-after? which sucks. It will have to be replaced sooner than hoped (I have one radiator with a rusted-through burring? bunting?--the 1.5-2" little thingy that connects the feed pipe to the radiator itself--in the main floor bathroom, that also needs to be fixed soon--it is apparently "too rusted to touch." and I need to find a plumbing-boiler specialist that can deal with that kind of thing? I also might want to replace that radiator, which could reduce hassle of reinstalling it if the thing breaks, or pieces break inside. It's 7 tubes for too-small space. I think I could get away with 3 or 4, save some space, get a fancy reclaimed silver-filigreed deal and look all proper)

I've got this place in the area, where I just lose time:

http://communityforklift.org/our-store/store-policies-info/

and I always want to buy these for some reason:

they have hundreds of those. Ideally, I'd replace all ~9 of them in the house, but I realize that is unnecessary cost for pure vanity, but damn it would be sexy.
I'd love to replace most things in the home with a lot of this reclaimed stuff, especially the doors, but of course things like the radiators, I'm not sure how to inspect them to make sure they are in good shape (I always assume that old + cast-iron + american = built to last), or if one or the other is meant for steam systems and not hot water systems.

In MD, problem with installing a new gas furnace (or gas anything) is that 2017 code now requires chimneys to be re-lined...so that is something I am avoiding as long as I can. My flue sits about 8 feet above the roof, so it's pretty high and several local folks have told me that only masons will deal with that type of chimney, and that just means more $$$$. It's why I reluctantly replaced the dying gas water heater (~16 years old at the time) with an electric one last year.

 

[BoomerD]

We’re about to buy a house on the Washington coast. The weather is USUALLY pretty mild, and there is no natural gas avaliable, so If you want gas heat/cooking...propane is the only option...almost all the houses have the crappy and inefficient Cadet electric wall heaters. We’re considering a mini-split system for at least the main living room area and master bedroom. Initial over the phone estimates are around $10K with a $900 rebate from the electric PUD.
Mitsubishi has been one of the brands mentioned, I’ll ask about Daikin.

 

[BoomerD]

...however, I didn't consider that the expansion tank might be getting @BoomerD - old.

 

[paperfist]

yup, that was the thought, but the relief valve was never leaking, or persistently dripping when on. It was just one big blow out each time. Plus, we sat their and watched the psi gauge do weird things, very quickly.

...however, I didn't consider that the expansion tank might be getting @BoomerD - old. That's something...this 80% Vaillant furnace was apparently built in 94, so installed probably not-long-after? which sucks. It will have to be replaced sooner than hoped (I have one radiator with a rusted-through burring? bunting?--the 1.5-2" little thingy that connects the feed pipe to the radiator itself--in the main floor bathroom, that also needs to be fixed soon--it is apparently "too rusted to touch." and I need to find a plumbing-boiler specialist that can deal with that kind of thing? I also might want to replace that radiator, which could reduce hassle of reinstalling it if the thing breaks, or pieces break inside. It's 7 tubes for too-small space. I think I could get away with 3 or 4, save some space, get a fancy reclaimed silver-filigreed deal and look all proper)

I've got this place in the area, where I just lose time:

http://communityforklift.org/our-store/store-policies-info/

and I always want to buy these for some reason:

they have hundreds of those. Ideally, I'd replace all ~9 of them in the house, but I realize that is unnecessary cost for pure vanity, but damn it would be sexy.
I'd love to replace most things in the home with a lot of this reclaimed stuff, especially the doors, but of course things like the radiators, I'm not sure how to inspect them to make sure they are in good shape (I always assume that old + cast-iron + american = built to last), or if one or the other is meant for steam systems and not hot water systems.

In MD, problem with installing a new gas furnace (or gas anything) is that 2017 code now requires chimneys to be re-lined...so that is something I am avoiding as long as I can. My flue sits about 8 feet above the roof, so it's pretty high and several local folks have told me that only masons will deal with that type of chimney, and that just means more $$$$. It's why I reluctantly replaced the dying gas water heater (~16 years old at the time) with an electric one last year.

That is one sexy radiator! I now have radiator envy... Mine are so bland looking, but I can't complain they produce magnificent heat even when they aren't on.

By furnace you mean boiler? If you're going to replace the boiler you can get an indirect hot water heater for it and save two ways over your aged system and electric hot water heater.

If you get a high efficiency setup they vent through the basement wall and you could eliminate the chimney altogether if nothing else vents through there.

It's hard to believe your radiator is rusting out. I wonder if it's the one Abe Lincoln used to have? I mean the things weigh a ton, they must be thick as a redwood. You know you can actually knock the tubes off and make the radiator smaller? Maybe you can fix the rust that way

That's sweet! Not the typical find at a reclaim place. I could make one of those river tables with that haha

 

[zinfamous]

That is one sexy radiator! I now have radiator envy... Mine are so bland looking, but I can't complain they produce magnificent heat even when they aren't on.

By furnace you mean boiler? If you're going to replace the boiler you can get an indirect hot water heater for it and save two ways over your aged system and electric hot water heater.

If you get a high efficiency setup they vent through the basement wall and you could eliminate the chimney altogether if nothing else vents through there.

It's hard to believe your radiator is rusting out. I wonder if it's the one Abe Lincoln used to have? I mean the things weigh a ton, they must be thick as a redwood. You know you can actually knock the tubes off and make the radiator smaller? Maybe you can fix the rust that way

That's sweet! Not the typical find at a reclaim place. I could make one of those river tables with that haha

yeah the wood slabs that they pull in are gorgeous. effing expensive, though. Lots of great fixtures, old cookware (real cast iron), furniture, doors...they even have giant fancy splayed staircases piled up in there somewhere.

unfortunately, I can't fix the rust by knocking off some tubes, because it's specifically the feed from the boiler that is rusted through--so not the radiator exactly, but the bunting or whatever it's called that connects the wall pipe to the radiator that is rusted through. HVAC dude said that it could be more problematic than it seems, because it could shatter and fall into pieces inside the radiator when they try to remove it, they could crack the radiator, etc.

 

[zinfamous]

We’re about to buy a house on the Washington coast. The weather is USUALLY pretty mild, and there is no natural gas avaliable, so If you want gas heat/cooking...propane is the only option...almost all the houses have the crappy and inefficient Cadet electric wall heaters. We’re considering a mini-split system for at least the main living room area and master bedroom. Initial over the phone estimates are around $10K with a $900 rebate from the electric PUD.
Mitsubishi has been one of the brands mentioned, I’ll ask about Daikin.

damn, $10k for 2 zones also? That's kinda nuts. I wonder if they are just going up in price because more people are looking into them?

 

[Greenman]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I priced them at with my research. Of course, dude claimed that "mitsubishi does not sell their stuff online," and so they are likely knockoffs or you would need to confirm serial numbers with mitsu. I treated that as a grey area untruth, but whatever. Regardless, he says they will not install customer-supplied equipment. But, he wasn't offended by my offer and said he would be willing to work with something when it makes sense, so maybe later.

I also might be looking at Daikin in the area, because they seem to be very popular, well rated, and much more affordable.

In the meantime, focus on kitchen, much of which can be done myself (sticky tile is covering virgin oak hardwood--some deplorable savage covered that stuff up, so I have to pull it up, clean and sand it, stain it, rearrange fridge and cabinets). Only job I will hire out is electrician to do some re-wiring and updating (need to install at least 3 new outlets in the area, fix the wiring in some switches), and I want to install Dekton counters (this is all Kaido's fault) on top of my existing cabinetry, plus new sink. I "think" I can do all of this for under $5k, as I will tile the walls myself, already installed the new hood (which MOSTLY works!), floors and new island, (built or placed), myself.

Take a look at the alpine site. They sell house brand equipment that's Chinese made, I don't recall who the manufacturer is, but it's apparently one of the largest that exists. I've used the equipment, it appears to be well made and works well.
HVAC is the last protected trade. Most manufacturers will only sell to licensed company's, and most of those charge a tremendous markup. I install all of the HVAC on my projects now because I can do it for about a third of what the HVAC guys want.

 

[IronWing]

That is one sexy radiator! I now have radiator envy... Mine are so bland looking, but I can't complain they produce magnificent heat even when they aren't on.

By furnace you mean boiler? If you're going to replace the boiler you can get an indirect hot water heater for it and save two ways over your aged system and electric hot water heater.

If you get a high efficiency setup they vent through the basement wall and you could eliminate the chimney altogether if nothing else vents through there.

It's hard to believe your radiator is rusting out. I wonder if it's the one Abe Lincoln used to have? I mean the things weigh a ton, they must be thick as a redwood. You know you can actually knock the tubes off and make the radiator smaller? Maybe you can fix the rust that way

That's sweet! Not the typical find at a reclaim place. I could make one of those river tables with that haha

I loved cast iron radiators in places I've rented. Quiet, comfortable heat. One of my coworkers bought an old bungalow and ripped out the hot water system to install a forced air system. I didn't think I'd ever want to send someone to a re-education camp but, man.

Totally off-topic but I like my new-to-me bench. Just finished refinishing it this weekend. Mesquite.

 

[paperfist]

I loved cast iron radiators in places I've rented. Quiet, comfortable heat. One of my coworkers bought an old bungalow and ripped out the hot water system to install a forced air system. I didn't think I'd ever want to send someone to a re-education camp but, man.

Totally off-topic but I like my new-to-me bench. Just finished refinishing it this weekend. Mesquite.

Nice job on a sweet bench, it looks brand new!

Yeah radiators look old and useless but they sure pack a lot of punch. I had to use my forced hot air for a few months while I replaced my boiler and the difference was like night and day.

The hot air blasts you and then dissipates kind of rapidly. Then runs again. The radiators give off heat all the time and the system doesn’t run as often. They actually kept my 2nd floor at 65 despite not having any heat source there.

Bill was $100 more a month with forced hot air too. I was going to rip mine out to but I’m glad I was forced not to.

 

[local]

We tend to push for Carrier mini-splits for one simple reason, parts. Carrier stocks parts in the US. Mitsubishi, LG, Daikin all have to get them shipped in from China it seems and that can take weeks.

In terms of reliability we see mostly Mitsubishi failures, probably due to the number of them installed, followed up by control boards on LG units. Daikin mini-splits seem to be good right now but I don't recommend any of their other products. Carrier reliability is down over the last few years but we have not seen that yet on their mini-splits.

And yes, we make money that is why we are in business. Take away the equipment and we will just put whatever profit we lose into the job anyway. Residential customers though really get the shaft as no one wants to deal with you. My company for instance does not do residential at all outside of special favors.

Also remember that while mini-split systems are great they have a lower life expectancy than traditional split systems, about 10 years.