Mini-ITX/SFF wish list

cbn · Aug 26, 2013

Please post your wish list for Mini-ITX and SFF.

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Here is my most basic list (covering a wide range of categories in SFF):

1. More choices in budget, low power SFX PSU.

Maybe even bring back the affordable FSP200-50SNV 200 watt SFX PSU (with an update to modern plugs).

2. Higher than 450 watt SFX PSUs. (designed for 92mm fan, if that helps).

3. Lower prices on future FM2+ mini-itx boards for budget builds. (The current price gap between the cheapest FM2 Mini-ITX and FM2 Micro ATX boards is relatively large for some reason.....even when standardizing for the A75 chipset)

4. Good selection of value priced, dual core Intel Silvermont atom/AMD Jaguar Mini-ITX motherboards. (particularly if they were DC-in). Passive heatsink would be a plus.

5. Green power (ie, 75 watt TDP) variants of stronger GPU in low profile format. (single slot or dual slot).

6. (Minor request) Stand for Mini-ITX Silverstone ML05 so it can be more stable in the vertical position.

7. (Minor request) Power bulge in the side panel of Micro-ATX Fractal Design Core 1000. (The current design is specd to accommodate 148mm tall coolers.) This way standard tower coolers like the value priced 159mm Coolermaster Hyper 212 Plus/Evo can be mounted without bowing the side panel when it is closed up.

cbn · Aug 27, 2013

8. Smaller Micro ATX cases.

Some examples of existing Micro ATX:

Fractal Design Core 1000: 26.1 liters
Silverstone Sugo SG10: 23 llters
TOPOWER TP-1687: 15.5 liters (Full width slots, SFX PSU)
IN WIN BK644.BN300TBL: 12.4 liters (Full width expansion slots, SFX PSU)

Taking a closer look at the Interior of the 15.5 liter Topower:

$(KGrHqVHJDkFHomJ-GTrBS!+gnS3Ew~~60_3.JPG

$(KGrHqIOKosFHlzL-rKUBS!+go,z3w~~60_3.JPG

$(KGrHqNHJ!8FH698C+(!BS!+gk7kdw~~60_3.JPG

First off, notice this case is definitely not any wider than it needs to accommodate standard width expansions slots. I think this is good starting point for designing a case aimed at being the smallest possible size for its form factor. Folks wanting to use overclocked hexcore or even octocore CPUs (LGA 2011/AM3+) might be dismayed by the inability to use a tower cooler due to the width restriction, but I believe this could be fixed by designing a new side panel. Maybe even make it a modular side panel, so some kind of optional bolt-on power bulge (possibly replacing a window in the panel) could be added to provide the proper clearance and ventilation support.

Regarding the drive mounts, in stock form they appear to serve their functional well, but removing the optical drive and the bays adjacent to it could potentially allow a much shorter case, cutting lots of internal volume. For storage, new 2.5" cages (replacing the 3.5") could be made and relocated somewhere else in the case.

Moving on to the case fans, I think the stock set-up (from a ventilation standpoint) is not so bad for a stock CPU and mainstream video card. With that said certainly more fan mounts could be designed in to accommodate higher power set-ups. The top panel being the most obvious place for an additional exhaust fan mount.

Overall, (Using the above Topower case as an example) It would seem to me there is a great potential to shrink down Micro-ATX.

subtec · Aug 27, 2013

A couple points about the TOPOWER and IN WIN:

1. The width (137mm and 140mm) leaves no room whatsoever for PCIe power connectors on the side of the video card. You need to add a bare minimum of 15mm, though 20-25mm is a safer bet (the connector itself is 10mm, plus 7-15mm to allow enough room for the cables to bend). Keep in mind many video cards also have coolers that extend past the edge or larger, nonstandard PCBs as well.

2. Neither case includes the front bezel in the given dimension for depth. For the TOPOWER it's about an extra 37mm; for the IN WIN, 30mm. Don't ask me why they measure it this way, but they do.

Taking the bezels into account, the real dimensions are:

TOPOWER TP-1687: 336.6 x 137 x 373.6, 17.2L
IN WIN BK644: 322.6 x 140 x 304.3, 13.7L

If we were to increase the width of these cases to allow a minimum amount of room for PCIe power connectors, with an increase to, say, 155mm, we're looking at volumes of 19.5L and 15.2L for the TP-1687 and BK644, respectively. IMO with mATX you really want to move to ATX PSUs (to be able to use SLI/crossfire), which would be another couple of liters.

This doesn't even get to addressing the cooling needs of higher end hardware, a point on which these two chassis' fail pretty hard, and to do right would inevitably require a bit more room.

So the point I'm getting at is it's not as straightforward as it might seem to make things smaller. You really have to consider every detail carefully.

Zap · Aug 27, 2013

Computer Bottleneck said:
Please post your wish list for Mini-ITX and SFF.

Z. Cases that I design.

Computer Bottleneck said:
1. More choices in budget, low power SFX PSU.
...
2. Higher than 450 watt SFX PSUs. (designed for 92mm fan, if that helps).

More choices would not be a bad thing, plus more efficient and lower wattage units. However, I don't think pricing would go down as component costs vary very little, which is why you sometimes see it costing $10 more for a 100W higher wattage PSU of the same model line.

Also, not sure there is need for more than 450W. You can run any single GPU system on such a PSU. AnandTech's GTX 780 review only got 405W from the wall during gaming.

Computer Bottleneck said:
8. Smaller Micro ATX cases.
...
Overall, (Using the above Topower case as an example) It would seem to me there is a great potential to shrink down Micro-ATX.

I have a similar case (in aluminum!!!) and I've spent way too much time daydreaming of improvements. Anyone want to fund me?

subtec said:
A couple points about the TOPOWER and IN WIN:

That was one of the best 1st posts I've ever read. Very nice! :thumbsup:

cbn · Aug 28, 2013

subtec said:
A couple points about the TOPOWER and IN WIN:

1. The width (137mm and 140mm) leaves no room whatsoever for PCIe power connectors on the side of the video card. You need to add a bare minimum of 15mm, though 20-25mm is a safer bet (the connector itself is 10mm, plus 7-15mm to allow enough room for the cables to bend). Keep in mind many video cards also have coolers that extend past the edge or larger, nonstandard PCBs as well.

cbn · Aug 28, 2013

Computer Bottleneck said:
Regarding the drive mounts, in stock form they appear to serve their functional well, but removing the optical drive and the bays adjacent to it could potentially allow a much shorter case, cutting lots of internal volume. For storage, new 2.5" cages (replacing the 3.5") could be made and relocated somewhere else in the case.

That part I bolded above in post #2 should have said "shallower" case. (As in less depth.... the front panel and the I/O shield could be much closer together if the optical drive and existing 3.5" cage were removed).

TheStu · Aug 28, 2013

Computer Bottleneck said:
That part I bolded above in post #2 should have said "shallower" case. (As in less depth.... the front panel and the I/O shield could be much closer together if the optical drive and existing 3.5" cage were removed).

I don't see why they don't ship it with 1 or 2 120mm fans in the front of the thing, just get rid of the rear 60mms altogether.

Get rid of the 5.25" drive cage, and either drop the 3.5" bay that it comes with, or combine it with the existing 3.5" area. Also, 2.5" drives are totally a thing now, they should really have a place for those.

On the other hand, this case is currently on sale for $25, so I'm not sure what I expect exactly.

Brainonska511 · Aug 28, 2013

I'd like to see Antec ISK 300 with a more efficient and maybe higher wattage PSU, something in the 200-350W range. It doesn't need to be too much though. My ideal system would take a modern i5, an SSD (either as mSATA or regular SATAIII), two 2.5" traditional drives for large storage, and maybe a low-midrange half-height GPU for some light gaming. The main thing is that it should be a great desktop system for everyday use, the power for a few games (nothing crazy though), be quiet, and have a small footprint.

And a better selection of mITX compatible heatsinks, as many are either too tall or block various slots on many mITX boards.

Lonyo · Aug 28, 2013

Flat mITX cases which are extra wide, with a PCIe riser so you can have a double slot graphics card without significantly increasing overall case volume.

tviceman · Aug 28, 2013

Seriously, if the SGO09 / SG10 cases didn't look like crap, I'd just get one of those. Bitfenix has some cases coming out that look good:

I'm also interested in the prodigy m sans the handles (add some feet to it though for bottom air flow).

tviceman · Aug 28, 2013

Lonyo said:
Flat mITX cases which are extra wide, with a PCIe riser so you can have a double slot graphics card without significantly increasing overall case volume.

I'd be interested in cases that come with PCIe risers for your reasons stated!

cbn · Aug 29, 2013

subtec said:
IMO with mATX you really want to move to ATX PSUs (to be able to use SLI/crossfire), which would be another couple of liters.

I did the following photo edit of the Topower Case just to see what is possible. I think 140mm depth ATX PSU might work. (As a point of reference of for everyone else the SFX PSU seen in the picture is 100mm deep), but It is not going to leave much room in that upper right hand corner for a 2.5" HDD/SSD cage.

Furthermore, I think having the SFX PSU in there could allow a little bit more reduction in case height.

====================================================================

Topower micro ATX case modification--

Before:

After:

Optical drive bay and 3.5" cage are effectively removed and the case depth is shortened. As you can see the inside of the front panel is very near the motherboard standoff holes.

NOTES & Comments:

1. Click on the bar above both images to view them in the same scale. (Otherwise the "modified" case in the second image looks smaller than it really is)

2. Now that an optical drive no longer needs to be accommodated, maybe another 120mm fan mount could be added to the front panel.

3. With this amount of shortened case depth, the maximum length of the video card (s) will be affected. However, considering uATX boards are spec'd to be 9.6" x 9.6" max I don't see this as much of a problem for mainstream and midrange enthusiast cards.

4. A 2.5" HDD/SSD cage will still need to be added. Maybe the upper right hand corner of the case would be good for that?

cbn · Aug 31, 2013

9. More Prebuilt SFF desktops using industry standard PSUs.

cbn · Aug 31, 2013

10. More prebuilt SFF Desktops able to take a dual slot low profile PCI-E card.

Examples of prebuilt SFF desktops that have two available expansion slots yet can only take single slot low profile video card (due to the PCI-E x16 lane being in the outboard position on the motherboard):

Dell Inspiron 660s
Gateway SX
Acer Aspire X

Examples of prebuilt SFF desktops that can take dual slot low profile video card:

Lenovo H520s
HP Pavilion Slimline 400

piasabird · Sep 1, 2013

Why not just go with the Cooler Master Elite 130 with the black mesh front and just enough room for a CPU Water Cooler.

http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-...ster+elite+130

I like this case even without a water cooler.

cbn · Oct 16, 2013

11. Atom Z3680D in the TV stick form factor:

...... and small cases like the following:

USB 3.0 is a must.

cbn · Oct 16, 2013

Duplicate post.

cbn · Oct 26, 2013

12. With fanless cases for NUC dropping in price (Example--> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F9VRQDY/...xtension-kb-20) , I'd like to see more motherboards compatible with NUC chassis.

Virgorising · Oct 26, 2013

I do not get why anyone whose main system is a desktop wants smaller vs bigger. I buy previously owned Optiplexes as my desktops....now have my third one. The Optiplex line has THREE configurations. The reasons I only get the biggest one, the MT: mine sit on the floor, so size is moot, but 2) far more important, the bigger the case, the better the thermal flow.

Full height PCI card potential, more empty bays for anything you want, soo comfortable to work in.....for me, also positive elements.

Brainonska511 · Oct 27, 2013

Virgorising said:
I do not get why anyone whose main system is a desktop wants smaller vs bigger. I buy previously owned Optiplexes as my desktops....now have my third one. The Optiplex line has THREE configurations. The reasons I only get the biggest one, the MT: mine sit on the floor, so size is moot, but 2) far more important, the bigger the case, the better the thermal flow.

Full height PCI card potential, more empty bays for anything you want, soo comfortable to work in.....for me, also positive elements.

Some people want to use desktop parts, but don't have the space for a full tower. With many components integrated into the motherboard and processor, the need for add-on cards is limited, especially if someone just needs a basic system. With my reduced needs these days and integrated graphics being what they are now, I could easily see building myself a small ITX system when it comes time to replace my desktop system. As a bonus, I'd free up some space in my desk too.

Virgorising · Oct 27, 2013

Brainonska511 said:
Some people want to use desktop parts, but don't have the space for a full tower. With many components integrated into the motherboard and processor, the need for add-on cards is limited, especially if someone just needs a basic system. With my reduced needs these days and integrated graphics being what they are now, I could easily see building myself a small ITX system when it comes time to replace my desktop system. As a bonus, I'd free up some space in my desk too.

Thanks for this, I understand more now re why, at least some people want smaller re desktops.

Also true the SFFs within the Optiplex line have always sold decently, or else they wouldn't still be making the two smaller ones.

I do get, there is a clear trend in the marketplace to all in ones. I guess, trying to knock off the imacs. And, (sigh) a lot of them have touch screens (and Less Than CPUs)....I think, the former: total gimmick for dilettantes who are more about pinching and zooming than anything serious, but must make Gates very happy, cause that demographic was the main target re Windows 8.

Thing is, I have teeny workstation here in Manhattan, and very little fits on my desk......another reason, putting my big Optis on the floor (I did build a wood platform with wheels, tho) works for me.

Good comment about current integrated graphics. Only thing I am not crazy about re my new/old Lynnfield i7 chip, is, it never heard of them.:|

See? As I always say, we are each unique!!

dave_the_nerd · Oct 28, 2013

8. 4TB 2.5" HDDs for <$100 each.

cbn · Nov 1, 2013

13. More budget mini-itx boards with usb 3.0.

14. 16 GB eMMC on Silvermont atom mini itx and other types of SFF consumer boards.

This would lower the cost of entry for the extreme budget x86 desktop. (Of course, the eMMC equipped Mini-IITX should still have the usual complement of SATA ports for SSD/HDD.)

P.S. With respect to the speed of eMMC, there appears to be some fast options on the near horizon. Example: Samsung eMMC 5.0---> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/eMMC-PRO-embedded-memory-eMMC-5.0-JEDEC-Samsung,23700.html

Samsung said the 32 GB and 64 GB models have a random read speed of 7000 IOPS (inputs/outputs per second), and a random write speed of 7000 IOPS. They also read sequentially at 250 MB/s and write sequentially at 90 MB/s.

cbn · Nov 1, 2013

15. Faster and cheaper usb 3.0 sticks for the same reason I listed in #14.

Currently the best in class usb 3.0 stick appears to be Sandisk Extreme: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-3.0-thumb-drive-review,3477-7.html

Right now the 16 GB version will set a person back $25 (with free shipping)---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008C7C5OW/...xtension-kb-20

Hopefully the price drops further in this category of fast usb 3.0 flash memory.

gus6464 · Nov 1, 2013

Isn't the Phenom M the same footprint as the Prodigy but fits matx?

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