Military and true conservatives disgusted with Big Government Bush NeoCons

Codec

Member
Jan 19, 2000
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Increasing criticism of Bush and the NeoCons from true conservative republicans.

One deputy counsel at the Pentagon, a staunch Republican, recently resigned because, as he explained not for attribution, "right-wing ideologues are putting at risk the reputation of the U.S. military."
William Odom, a retired general and former member of the National Security Council who is now at the Hudson Institute, a conservative thinktank, reflects a wide swath of opinion in the upper ranks of the military. "It was never in our interest to go into Iraq," he told me. It is a "diversion" from the war on terrorism; the rationale for the Iraq war (finding WMD) is "phoney"; the US army is overstretched and being driven "into the ground"; and the prospect of building a democracy is "zero". In Iraqi politics, he says, "legitimacy is going to be tied to expelling us. Wisdom in military affairs dictates withdrawal in this situation. We can't afford to fail, that's mindless. The issue is how we stop failing more. I am arguing a strategic decision."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215613,00.html

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040511-072104-3118r
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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True conservatives...

Theres a name for them too "paleo conservatives" the likes of Justin Romanio founder at antiwar.com, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul (R) TX, Ronald Reagan, and so on.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Paleo...as if they're extinct or soon to be. That's the scary part. The true conservatives need to take back the Republican Party from the Great Divider.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: conjur
Paleo...as if they're extinct or soon to be. That's the scary part. The true conservatives need to take back the Republican Party from the Great Divider.

That will be very hard they don't much care for corporate welfare so the press hates them and the money hates them.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Lt Gen Odom's comments are interesting, given his credentials:

Lieutenant General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret.), is a Senior Fellow at Hudson Institute's Washington, D.C. office. He is also a visiting professor at Georgetown University and a Fellow at Berkeley College, Yale University. As Director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988, he was responsible for the nation's signals intelligence and communications security. From 1981 to 1985, he served as Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, the Army's senior intelligence officer.


From 1977 to 1981, General Odom was Military Assistant to the President's Assistant for National Security Affairs, Zbigniew Brzezinski. As a member of the National Security Council staff, he worked upon strategic planning, Soviet affairs, nuclear weapons policy, telecommunications policy, and Persian Gulf security issues. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1954, and received a Ph.D. from Columbia University in 1970.


That said, the Guardian article takes its point too far IMO, in that it paints the US military, or at least its leadership, as uniformly negative toward Scty Rumsfeld, something that is far from true in my opinion and observation.

I know a lot of officers and enlisted folks, and their opinions run the gamut from adamantly pro-Bush/Rumsfeld to anyone-but-Bush-in-2004. A lot of military members, frankly, tend toward complacency in matters related to politics and international relations, and don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

I have observed, however, a growing skepticism toward Operation Iraqi Freedom, similar to that borne out by the poll numbers of the public at large - it seems people are starting to question why their friends and collegues are dying, and whether their sacrifices are worthwhile when weighed against whatever benefit the US and the world community has drawn from OIF.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I don't know what to call them besides bastards, but most "conservatives" these days seem to be about money in their pockets and making war.

Greed and death. That's why I have distanced myself from them.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
It's always fun to hear non-Conservatives here talk about "true" Conservatives...

You may now resume your session...sorry for interrupting.

CkG

Hehe, you morons forgot to ask Caddy's permission to express an opinion. I hope you've learned your lesson.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
It's always fun to hear non-Conservatives here talk about "true" Conservatives...

You may now resume your session...sorry for interrupting.

CkG

Hehe, you morons forgot to ask Caddy's permission to express an opinion. I hope you've learned your lesson.

Hehehehe , not CKG approved :thumbsdown:
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
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Originally posted by: Zebo
True conservatives...

Theres a name for them too "paleo conservatives" the likes of Justin Romanio founder at antiwar.com, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul (R) TX, Ronald Reagan, and so on.

Sort of like 'Old Europe' those guys are irrelevent ;)
 

syf3r

Senior member
Oct 15, 1999
673
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I don't know what to call them besides bastards, but most "conservatives" these days seem to be about money in their pockets and making war.

Greed and death. That's why I have distanced myself from them.


You're referring to the neo-cons, no? They're the ones commonly associated with being the "war party" in the white house and defense dept. It's very interesting to look at who the neocons actually are. There was an article written a couple months ago on adbusters that listed the names of 50 neocons in the highest gov't positions, and pointed out that 26 of them are jewish, asking how a religious minority can hold such an unbalanced (greater than 50%) amount of the most influential positions in our gov't. Of course, all he was doing was stating absolute facts. Of course, he was immediately labeled anti-semitic. Here is a copy of the article.

[edit: and here is an article from a jewish newspaper which make very similar admissions.]

/syf3r
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
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Neo-Cons aren't "real" conservatives because many of their original group were trotskyists, re:Irving Kristol. Do a google search on Leo Strauss and you will be scared. Basically, to them Plato was totally right in the Republic; a small cabal of Philosophers (i.e. Paul Wolfowitz, Clarence Thomas, and Scalia) are the only ones who see the truth. They then construct a glorious lie to tell the various classes so they have something to believe in.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
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Originally posted by: preslove
Neo-Cons aren't "real" conservatives because many of their original group were trotskyists, re:Irving Kristol. Do a google search on Leo Strauss and you will be scared. Basically, to them Plato was totally right in the Republic; a small cabal of Philosophers (i.e. Paul Wolfowitz, Clarence Thomas, and Scalia) are the only ones who see the truth. They then construct a glorious lie to tell the various classes so they have something to believe in.

It doesn't matter that it is a lie because we have the vision and the rest of yo are blind. We are here to give you our vision.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
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I think some of these statements are quite true considering the recent actions of the u.s. military
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
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Originally posted by: Zebo
True conservatives...

Theres a name for them too "paleo conservatives" the likes of Justin Romanio founder at antiwar.com, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul (R) TX, Ronald Reagan, and so on.


Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are not conservatives. Ron Paul is a libertarian. Pat Buchanan used to be a conservative, but doesn't affiliate himself with conservatives or the Republicans. Ronald Reagan was a conservative.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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The problem with the so called "true" conservatives are they are usually just as fanatical as the "true" liberals.

The republican party would be wise to curtail their platform to a neocons or what I call a moderate republican view if it wants to keep taking seats from the disenchanted democrats.

I am a fiscal conservative, military conservative, but very liberal on freedom of speech and cival liberties.

This puts me in the moderate portion of the political spectrum. It is no surprise that the liberals on this board want the Republicans to run back to their old school conservative ways because that means thay can attack them on the usual scapegoat issues like race, immigration, class warfare ect ect.

As it stands right now the difference between a neocon and a moderate democrat are almost non existent. The democrats are going further left since Clinton left while the Republicans are going more to the middle and gaining seats because of it. The republicans are actually becoming a very good alternative for moderate democrats.

Somebody like Clinton I probably could have voted for if he wasnt such a damn crook and wasnt so pro-choice.

BTW IMO I considered Reagan to be more of a moderate republican than people tend to give him credit for. He was very conservative on military spending but wasnt very fiscally responsible. Also I believe he was pro-choice which would not make him a true conservative.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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Originally posted by: hokiezilla
Originally posted by: Zebo
True conservatives...

Theres a name for them too "paleo conservatives" the likes of Justin Romanio founder at antiwar.com, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul (R) TX, Ronald Reagan, and so on.


Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are not conservatives. Ron Paul is a libertarian. Pat Buchanan used to be a conservative, but doesn't affiliate himself with conservatives or the Republicans. Ronald Reagan was a conservative.

You're right about Ron Paul, he is a libertarian. However, Pat Buchanan is a paleo-conservative who is pissed off at the 'neo-conservative' communists who hijacked the republican party.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: Genx87
BTW IMO I considered Reagan to be more of a moderate republican than people tend to give him credit for. He was very conservative on military spending but wasnt very fiscally responsible. Also I believe he was pro-choice which would not make him a true conservative.

Uhhhhh...

The defense budget under Reagan reached 6.9% of GDP. The highest level in any year since 1969.

And from:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38812-2004Mar7_2.html

Total defense budget authority, which covers not only the Pentagon's needs but also the nuclear weapons programs run by the Energy Department, rose by $19 billion in 2002 to $385 billion. It soared $89 billion the next year to $474 billion and has remained at about the same level in fiscal 2004.

By comparison, Reagan's buildup, in today's dollars, peaked at $494 billion in 1985
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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The defense budget under Reagan reached 6.9% of GDP. The highest level in any year since 1969.

Wouldnt spending lots of money on the military make you conservative in regards to military spending?
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
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Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: hokiezilla
Originally posted by: Zebo
True conservatives...

Theres a name for them too "paleo conservatives" the likes of Justin Romanio founder at antiwar.com, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul (R) TX, Ronald Reagan, and so on.


Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are not conservatives. Ron Paul is a libertarian. Pat Buchanan used to be a conservative, but doesn't affiliate himself with conservatives or the Republicans. Ronald Reagan was a conservative.

You're right about Ron Paul, he is a libertarian. However, Pat Buchanan is a paleo-conservative who is pissed off at the 'neo-conservative' communists who hijacked the republican party.

I'm not sure why you call neo-conservative's communists. Are you saying they are reformed pink-diaper babies?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: Genx87
The defense budget under Reagan reached 6.9% of GDP. The highest level in any year since 1969.

Wouldnt spending lots of money on the military make you conservative in regards to military spending?
Yeah but in the past starting Ill Conceived Foriegn Wars was a Democrat Trait!
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
BTW IMO I considered Reagan to be more of a moderate republican than people tend to give him credit for. He was very conservative on military spending but wasnt very fiscally responsible. Also I believe he was pro-choice which would not make him a true conservative.

Uhhhhh...

The defense budget under Reagan reached 6.9% of GDP. The highest level in any year since 1969.

And from:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38812-2004Mar7_2.html

Total defense budget authority, which covers not only the Pentagon's needs but also the nuclear weapons programs run by the Energy Department, rose by $19 billion in 2002 to $385 billion. It soared $89 billion the next year to $474 billion and has remained at about the same level in fiscal 2004.

By comparison, Reagan's buildup, in today's dollars, peaked at $494 billion in 1985


Yes. But it hastened the inevitable fall of communism. Reagan wasn't the spender- the Democrats in the House and Senate were. Reagan signed off on bills handed to him by Tip O'Neill to get his military spending increases and his tax cuts.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Ah...so Reagan gave Congress a blank check to come up with whatever they wanted, eh?

I thought "libs" were anti-military? :confused:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Ah...so Reagan gave Congress a blank check to come up with whatever they wanted, eh?

Did I say that? You are the one who came up with the military spending figures normalized to todays dollars.


I thought "libs" were anti-military?

Please clarify