News Mikhail Gorbachev has died at 91

[hal2kilo]

Mikhail Gorbachev, who ended the Cold War, dies aged 91 -agencies | Reuters

Thanks for trying to make Russia look sane. RIP

 

[skyking]

I did not realize how young he was. thanks for posting this up.

 

[UNCjigga]

Curious whether he had any last words regarding current events. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a posthumous op-ed or letter published soon.

 

[hal2kilo]

Curious whether he had any last words regarding current events. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a posthumous op-ed or letter published soon.

I know there was a definite schism between him and Putin, to the effect that Putin essentially undid what Gorbachev started. Will be interesting to see any of the above.

 

[ivwshane]

Last I heard Gorbachev regretted his roll in bringing down the Soviet Union. It’s a shame really because it was a good move for Russians.

 

[Thump553]

One of the most important human beings that ever existed, if only for what he did NOT do-starting a full fledged nuclear war when it became apparent that the USSR was going to collapse.

Unfortunately Reagan and GHWB (I) both dropped the ball when USSR collapsed. Instead of doing a Marshall Plan and getting actively involved post collapse, Reagan just bragged neither did much but watch the infant democracy collapse and the crime syndicates took over-which why we are dealing a much more dangerous Putin today.

 

[Jaskalas]

Instead of doing a Marshall Plan and getting actively involved post collapse...

God, what a dream that would have been.
To pick up Russia as an Ally instead of letting it fester and rot until it decided to just kill its neighbors.

 

[manly]

I know there was a definite schism between him and Putin, to the effect that Putin essentially undid what Gorbachev started. Will be interesting to see any of the above.

Vladdy is probably hosting a celebration party right now.

 

[Lezunto]

Thump

Unfortunately Reagan and GHWB (I) both dropped the ball when USSR collapsed. Instead of doing a Marshall Plan and getting actively involved post collapse, Reagan just bragged neither did much but watch the infant democracy collapse and the crime syndicates took over-which why we are dealing a much more dangerous Putin today.

George H.W. Bush was in the White House in August 1991. That's when the coup against Mikhail Gorbachev occurred which led to Boris Yeltsin coming to power a month later.

Some are adamant Ronald Reagan was suffering from memory loss deep into his second term. Others claim he was fine. Either way, being out of power, Reagan could have done nothing to save the Russian Federation.

 

[Captante]

Some are adamant Ronald Reagan was suffering from memory loss deep into his second term. Others claim he was fine. Either way, being out of power, Reagan could have done nothing to save the Russian Federation.

Uncle Ronnie died from Alzheimer's disease.... he was 100% certainly suffering early/mild symptoms towards the end of his second term.

However the rest of your post is exactly correct.

 

[VRAMdemon]

RIP!...

Hopefully this gives some pause in the Russian people to reflect that they have lost someone who actually cared about the future of the Russian people, unlike the path the country is going down today. Although Gorbachev didn't stand a chance - When the crucial decisions for the future of what had been the USSR were made, Yeltsin already held the reins. IMO ... he created the conditions that let Putin take over. But after so many years of poor leadership, oppression and corruption, it may have been impossible to fix things. It all fell apart because not enough regular people understood what he wanted to do, and far too many in leadership positions saw this new freedom as an opportunity to steal everything they could, and take up the power that Gorbachev had laid down.

To quote Russian economist Ruslan Grinberg - “He gave us all freedom - but we don’t know what to do with it.”

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I'll always be thankful to Gorbachev for keeping the hardliner communists in his party from starting WWIII over the Berlin Wall falling and then German reunification. RIP Mikhail.

 

[sandorski]

RIP, he had the courage to end the Cold War. We shouldn't forget that.

That said, I kinda wished he had done so in a way that allowed Russia not to descend into lawlessness and chaos. Something more gradual would, IMO, have made Russia more stable in the longterm.

 

[theeedude]

On balance he was one of the greats, but now hated in Russia because he put freedom over imperial "greatness."

 

[Lezunto]

Captante,

I don't know what Reagan's official cause of death is. I just know the controversy over whether he had Alzheimer's while in office remains in dispute among many.

And that is the point I touched on.

 

[Gardener]

Kudos to Gorbachev, and his policies of glasnost and perestroika. He's the reason the cold war ended peaceably, and the reason the USSR released the Eastern Bloc satellites. It made him a pariah to many in his own country for decades.

The topper is that he had the integrity and grace to not care that Reagan took the credit. He's the GOAT of the cold war era, he stopped the war.

 

[Lezunto]

Gorbachev could not do anything about that. He did not have a saavy public relations division and really did not understand what playing in the public relations arena entailed.

There are people on this very forum who claim, without verifiable proof mind you, that Ronald Reagan suffered from Alzheimer's during most of his second term. Reagan did have memory problems in his second term. One son said he suffered Alzheimer's, the other does not.

Who among us lived with the Reagans and was around the late POTUS all the time?

I tire of people who pop goofy statements as if it's emanating from Mount Olympus. They do not know. But they try to write with an air of historical authority when they don't know chit and get things wrong.

Such as Hitler was executed for his failed coup and WWII would have prevented if he had been killed.

They don't know true facts and prove this every day with their rancid meanderings.

 

[kage69]

Say what you want about Gorbie, he was a leader who could read which way the weather was blowing. Not exactly a saint, he still resorted to typical Soviet behavior, see Lithuania. His hat in hand arrival to a beaming Reagan in a mint suit is the stuff of diplomatic legend. Looked like he was there to hawk vacuum cleaners, White House staff had chronic wood for days. His openness to dialogue and desire to work with the West for the benefit of his people is what I will remember him for. His support for Russian conquest not so much.

Putin didn't go to the funeral. What a shock.

 

[amenx]

One of Gorbachevs close associates described him as shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict.

Gorbachev died shocked and bewildered by Ukraine conflict - interpreter

Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, was shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict in the months before he died and psychologically crushed in recent years by Moscow's worsening ties with Kyiv, his interpreter said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

 

[zinfamous]

It's interesting hearing this western perspective of Gorbachev. I wonder what the Baltic people think about Gorbi's "peaceful end to the Cold War," when he immediately sent tanks into those 3 countries in response to their new liberation, rolling over and crushing hundreds of civilians that stood in the way.

For some reason, peaceful Gorbachev believed that illegally occupied territories belonged to Russia no matter what.

Also, don't forget that "the fall" of the Berlin wall was a mistake. It was a mistaken order interpreted by a single guard on duty that let dozens of people past, and then it just snowballed from there. Gorbi never wanted to do that. Certainly not then, anyway.

Also, Reagan didn't do shit. He spoke some words in public a few times.

 

[Braznor]

Never liked the man.

 

[zinfamous]

One of Gorbachevs close associates described him as shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict.

Gorbachev died shocked and bewildered by Ukraine conflict - interpreter

Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, was shocked and bewildered by the Ukraine conflict in the months before he died and psychologically crushed in recent years by Moscow's worsening ties with Kyiv, his interpreter said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

would you be shocked if it turned out that Gorbachev's thoughts about Ukraine were more like Putin's? ...because they pretty much were aligned, and even your article says that: "Gorbachev to his death, still believed in the idea of the Soviet Union" (paraphrased in your linked article).

You read "Gorbachev was shocked and bewildered about the situation in Ukraine" as him not supporting the war, supporting Ukraine independence, supporting freedom and democracy. But this article doesn't suggest that and, in fact, steers clear about directing what that statement actually means. It can mean several things, you know.

...that wasn't Gorbachev. I think the only thing he didn't like was that Putin invaded and started genocide. I think if you read into that article, you'll see more of the real picture of Gorbachev, which is a person that also thought that Ukraine = Russia, and that they should forever be together. I'm sure he thought they were indistinguishable; but not so far into the idea of "they do not even exist" as Putin claims, which is necessary to propel someone towards genocide. Remember: Putin is also "shocked and bewildered" about the situation in Ukraine, and this is because he expected the genocide to be welcomed with open arms and to go on very easily and quickly.

Based on Gorbachev's history, it's most likely that he wanted Ukraine reabsorbed as another impoverished Russian territory because he also believed that would be best for them. He just didn't want to do it "violently" (Just some "light tank activity," which was always his style)

 

[pmv]

I have mixed feelings on Gorbachev. Sometimes I think he was the right man at the right time, who avoided Russia (at that time) going the way of China. The thing about him is he really believed in communism as a system that people would choose, given the choice. Hence he thought it could be reformed and sustained without the use of force, and so he didn't start shooting people en masse, and ultimately let the thing collapse instead.

Other times I think he was a sentimental guy who had too many illusions about the West (which stabbed him in the back and then proceeded to support the Great Russian Nationalist drunken despot Yeltsin far too uncritically - Yeltsin had none of the 'saving graces' of Gorbachev - there is nothing good to be said about that guy)

 

[pmv]

China essentially retained the despotic political system - which the leadership decided it really liked - but jettisoned communist economics. Gorbachev thought he could do the reverse (though he failed, it was probably for the best that he had the illusion that it was possible).

 

[pmv]

It's interesting hearing this western perspective of Gorbachev. I wonder what the Baltic people think about Gorbi's "peaceful end to the Cold War," when he immediately sent tanks into those 3 countries in response to their new liberation, rolling over and crushing hundreds of civilians that stood in the way.

For some reason, peaceful Gorbachev believed that illegally occupied territories belonged to Russia no matter what.

Also, don't forget that "the fall" of the Berlin wall was a mistake. It was a mistaken order interpreted by a single guard on duty that let dozens of people past, and then it just snowballed from there. Gorbi never wanted to do that. Certainly not then, anyway.

Also, Reagan didn't do shit. He spoke some words in public a few times.

Well the reason was that he was a Soviet Union guy. Let all the constituent nations go their own way and there's no Soviet Union left to be 'reformed'. Gorbachev (quite wrongly, as it turned out) thought the Soviet system could be made to work and that therefore it was a bad idea to break the place up (rather as EU fans think Brexit was a bad idea). I guess he simply was not aware how strong nationalist identities or resentments still were in the Soviet Union - he probably had the illusion that it was a voluntary union based on socialist internationalism.

Yeltsin preferred to take the route of breaking it all up because it gave him power - but he, not Gorbachev, was the direct predecessor of Putin in terms of being a fervent Russian nationalist (hence the war on Chechnya). He just thought Russia would be better on its own for a time, but I don't think he'd have been horrified at the notion of Russia one day trying to restore its 'empire' on its own, pre-Leninist, terms.