midrange htpc card: gtx 960 or wait for r9 370?

[Hi-Fi Man]

Why not grab a 960? Let me guess you suggest a 290.... for an HTPC with an i3....

 

[Headfoot]

Because it's a bad value... we've been over this.

See my posts at #43, 45 ,47 and Wanderer's post at #26 where we have addressed the point repeatedly.

tl;dr: $100 used 7950B has roughly the same performance, more ram, half the price if you care mostly about price. 290 has 50% more performance for $60 more if performance is more important. 960 is a bad buy in light of these two.

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

It's actually not though. The 960 offers best performance, thermals, efficiency, and video decoding for $200. It doesn't matter that the 290 offers better price/performance ratio in this specific scenario. For an HTPC I would much rather take the quieter more efficient and more capable (as far as video is concerned) card over the raw performance.

Used deals like that are something to consider as well. But with the obvious caveats.

 

[Headfoot]

If he's just concerned with decode and video playback, I'd say the GTX 750 is a better buy. If he cares about 3d performance, then I'm sticking to my previous points

 

[xpea]

If he's just concerned with decode and video playback, I'd say the GTX 750 is a better buy. If he cares about 3d performance, then I'm sticking to my previous points

NO
GTX750 lacks the full HEVC/H265 hardware decoder that comes with GTX960. His i3 won't play any HEVC video at 4k without stuttering on GTX750...

edit: proof here: http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/5890/test-the-geforce-gtx-960-is-the-best-htpc-gpu-of-this-moment

We tested various H.265 video files on a GTX 960. Playback was flawless for each and every one of them, with only negligible CPU load (around 1%), meaning that they were processed entirely by the GPU. Playing back Ultra HD H.265 files did not reveal any problems either. Connecting an Ultra HD TV through HDMI 2.0 allowed us to play back movies without any issues.

As was mentioned before, a good HTPC graphics card should not only offer the right feature set, but should more importantly also be quiet. A quick test shows that the GTX 960 manages to deliver. We recruited the help of a Zotac GeForce GTX 960 AMP! Edition, which we found to be the warmest GTX 960 of those we received. Naturally, if the fans of this graphics card remain inactive, the fans on the other GTX 960s that we tested shouldn't activate either. After playing back the movie Skyfall in its entirety – which took over two hours – we found that the fans didn't even turn on once, and that the heat sink's temperature remained well below 40 degrees Celsius. As such, it seems reasonable to conclude that the card will remain quiet indefinitely.

Our test system for graphics cards, which is based on a Core i7 5960X, consumed an average of 69 watts during playback of H.265 video. When idle, the system consumes an average of 66 watts. In other words, the system only uses an additional 3 watts when playing back H.265 video through the GPU's built-in decoder. Impressive!

...

Conclusion

Our conclusion is simple. HDMI 2.0 on the GTX 960 works flawlessly, hardware-based H.265 decoding on the GTX 960 works flawlessly, power consumption is exceptionally low during video playback, and the graphics cards that we tested only require passive cooling during video playback. As a result, the GeForce GTX 960 currently is the only correct choice for building a future proof HTPC. Good thing there's plenty of Mini-ITX enclosures that can accommodate a GTX 960. And while the card has way too much 3D power for the modest HTPC, being able to potentially play a 3D game on your HTPC might be an advantage.

 

[Headfoot]

NO
GTX750 lacks the full HEVC/H265 hardware decoder that comes with GTX960. His i3 won't play any HEVC video at 4k without stuttering on GTX750...

edit: proof here: http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/5890/test-the-geforce-gtx-960-is-the-best-htpc-gpu-of-this-moment

Where has he indicated he has a 4k TV/Monitor?

If you're buying for 4k decode, its 100x smarter to wait until you're going to buy the 4k TV and reevaluate cards at that time, instead of prospectively buying something in advance.

Same situation as when people buy a card in advance of Witcher 3 or GTA V not knowing how much card you need or what brand is going to perform better.

There will almost certainly be $100 range Radeon 3xx or Maxwell 2.0 GTX 950/940 in the near future, $200 just for 4k decode seems very wasteful when he doesn't even have a 4k TV by any indication

 

[BSim500]

I'm tired of people bashing this 960 2GB, it's honestly the best card for $200. It isn't a brick of a card and doesn't hog power. If you don't want/can't spend past that nothing else matters.

Agreed. By extension Intel & AMD should scrap all CPU's except the i7-4790K and FX-9590 because "value is relative" and "for $50 more you could buy x, and for another $50 you could buy y, and for another $50...", etc. I got to play with a GTX960 recently and it's a great 1080p card, especially for HTPC's. It doesn't even suck up 100w on Metro Last Light (half that of an 285 so God knows where the R9 290 recommendations are coming from for low-powered, silent optimized i3 HTPC rigs). Many games ran passively (no fans spinning) often at 10-25w lower power draw than even the 7790 / R7 260X (which is impressive as hell considering that card is half the speed, and even 10% slower than a 750Ti).

Serious advice for OP:-

You could "fit" a 200-250w R9 290 into a Mini-ITX but certainly not at same thermals / acoustics. Been there, done that. 90c temps + throttling or (genuinely) quiet acoustics - pick one of two. Temps also increase other components - CPU & case fans run faster, lower wattage PSU's run much hotter & PSU fan runs faster. Real world measured example for a Gold-rated 400w PSU : 150w load = 13db, 200w load = 19-24db, 300w load = 29-34db, etc). Adding +120w from 150w (GTX 960) to 270w (R9 290) increases PSU fan speed by 15-20db (triples to quadruples the noise). Going fanless merely increases the heat build-up in the case. And I certainly don't want my HDD's temps creeping up past 50-55c which is exactly what happens in many Mini-ITX cases when you stuff a +200w space heater just 2cms away from your drive cage. Laws of physics don't cease to apply just because it's an AMD on sale at a bargain. If the case is in some kind of enclosed / semi-enclosed TV cabinet, that can increase localized ambient air temp by 2-3c which increases component temps even more.

I've Just finished helping a friend build a GTX960 based HTPC. His temps dropped 25c on the GPU (87c to 62c) and 8c on other components moving from a temporary 200w GPU to a GTX960 100w card. 2GB VRAM is not an issue if you're smart enough to turn down settings from Ultra to High (which with an i3-4130, you'll probably be doing anyway). Half the time the visual difference is about 5% (if that) for up to 20-40% difference in performance. In a living room, you'll also be sitting further back (typically 8-10ft away) where the visibility of a lot of the more subtle Ultra vs High effects can be even more marginal than from close up (especially during real-world gameplay vs comparing side-by-side static screenshots). Lots of variables but the ultimate key to a silent HTPC is simply to not create excess heat in the first place by buying better perf-per-watt components even if they are at a slight price premium as it causes far fewer headaches & annoyances in the long run.

A lot of the "hate" for this card comes from people projecting their own builds onto others (and obsessing over "figures on paper") with little to no experience of either using the card or building silent Mini-ITX HTPC's. The OP specifically stated "low power use, low noise (fan turning off when not needed is a huge plus). Also, $200 is a good price for me and i wouldnt need to upgrade my corsair 430w ps" yet people have ignored his needs and demand he buy what other people want instead. Hopefully the AMD 300 series will bring much higher perf-per-watt (and lower wattage cards) to the table to both put pressure on nVidia to lower prices, but also to end the inane "220w dGPU's are the best option for an ultra-quiet Mini-ITX HTPC rig!" 'advice' that's been doing the rounds since the GTX 960's release from those who cannot understand "bang per buck room heaters" are not everyone's priority, the reason people build "medium-weight" hybrid HTPC/gaming rigs for the living room is not "I want a 500w top-end PC but can't afford it", and many are quite happy to pay a premium for lower heat / noise components (like 1TB SSD's instead of HDD's to eliminate any mechanical case noise / vibration) without needing to be being labelled "nvidia fanboy" every 5 seconds...

To OP : Ignore the hate & the haters. If you want a GTX 960, buy one. Or you could wait and see what AMD's mid-range 300 series brings. Either way, avoid putting +200-250w GPU's into small low-airflow cases with 400w PSU's like the plague.

 

[Headfoot]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7710/corsair-obsidian-250d-case-review/4

380w load (which is about where he'd be with a 290) shows the 250d handling it admirably. It's a very good quality case with well designed air flows for the size. Moving from a non-throttling temperature to a different non-throttling temperature is immaterial until it changes the noise profile.

The point on increased PSU noise is well made though, I'm not familiar enough with his PSU to know how loud it gets under load.

Of course, this doesn't change that a used 7950 is half the price for the same performance (yes, yes not including 4k decode in the highly unlikely scenario that's what he's buying it for). I've noticed you all continually ignore that 7950 Boosts cost $100 used and perform very closely to the 960. Despite the fact I've mentioned this at least 3 times in addition to the 290.

The 960 would be a wonderful card at ~$140

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7710/corsair-obsidian-250d-case-review/4

380w load (which is about where he'd be with a 290) shows the 250d handling it admirably. It's a very good quality case with well designed air flows for the size. Moving from a non-throttling temperature to a different non-throttling temperature is immaterial until it changes the noise profile.

The point on increased PSU noise is well made though, I'm not familiar enough with his PSU to know how loud it gets under load.

Of course, this doesn't change that a used 7950 is half the price for the same performance (yes, yes not including 4k decode in the highly unlikely scenario that's what he's buying it for). I've noticed you all continually ignore that 7950 Boosts cost $100 used and perform very closely to the 960. Despite the fact I've mentioned this at least 3 times in addition to the 290.

The 960 would be a wonderful card at ~$140

Wrong, I agreed with your suggestion on a used card, you just weren't paying attention and too busy arguing.

However some people aren't keen on used cards so there's that.

I just checked on ebay for the radeon 7950 boost and the lowest one I saw was $120 with the rest around $160-170.

 

[BSim500]

380w load (which is about where he'd be with a 290) shows the 250d handling it admirably.

The issue isn't the case but the PSU and the simply unnecessary level of heat in the first place. When you add +100-150w load to a low-wattage PSU (400w, etc), you drastically increase the noise no matter what case its in. The "sweet spot" for a 400w PSU is 200w load (for power efficiency on the "80 Plus curve") or ideally sub 150w (for minimum acoustics). Not +300w all in and hope no-one noticed the 15 to 35db fan speed increase in a HTPC environment...

Of course, this doesn't change that a used 7950 is half the price for the same performance. I've noticed you all continually ignore that 7950 Boosts cost $100 used

And I've noticed you ignore that "low noise" requirements tends to exclude GFX cards that have a baseline of 37db and irritatingly loud fans in a HTPC rig that supposed to be as silent as possible? No thanks at any price... Here's what a GTX 960 sounds like in comparison. (Comments below : "Wow this is so much quieter than the R9 280").

Is the 7950 particularly quiet? No. Does it spin down its fans? No. Is it "low powered"? No. Is it ideally suited for a 400w PSU (with only 1x 6-pin PCI-E GFX cable) given that it requires 2 of them? No. You're still pretty much ignoring everything he wants and every set of criteria he's given, simply because you (not him) wants to save a few bucks. For an ultra-quiet HTPC on a low wattage PSU with only 1x PCI-E power cable, the 7950 along with every other high wattage AMD card that requires 2x 6-pin cables simply isn't even in the running.

Edit: Here's another GTX 960 fan speed video this time with a visible readout decibel meter placed 12-16" away. Ignoring the fact it takes ages for the fans to start long after Unigine benchmark is running, when they do spin up there's less than 1db difference between fans on vs off. In fact, the guy merely placing his hand on the mouse at the end at more than double the distance away causes more noise. LOL. Likewise, 0 to 27db is 4-20x quieter than 46db. That's what a proper HTPC card is about and is what many people are quite happy to pay a premium for (even if you aren't personally).

 

[rolodomo]

It's actually not though. The 960 offers best performance, thermals, efficiency, and video decoding for $200. It doesn't matter that the 290 offers better price/performance ratio in this specific scenario. For an HTPC I would much rather take the quieter more efficient and more capable (as far as video is concerned) card over the raw performance.

Used deals like that are something to consider as well. But with the obvious caveats.

Although I think the 960 is currently a bit too expensive and is likely to see price reductions soon, I agree with the tenor of your argument. I can't believe some are actually arguing the 960's noise and thermals are better than you need and the hardware video codec is too powerful. When the 960 sees a price reduction, this is going to be a very compelling card for specific usage scenarios.

 

[Ranulf]

The market sucks right now, it has at the $200 level for nvidia for a year now. I think that is what pushes much of the 960 hate. I'd be more tolerant of it if it was $175 or had come out back in 2014 with the 970/980. I likely would have bought one then along with my 290.

I can buy into the silent/low power argument for a htpc with the 960 and its high cost. 4k future proofing not so much. That only counts if you have 4k already. But I also consider 4k to be over hyped malarky for anything but pc gaming and then overpriced for what you get in that niche.

Also for Poofy, a 4k tv in the kitchen? Ultra high res for the cooking shows?

 

[poofyhairguy]

Also for Poofy, a 4k tv in the kitchen? Ultra high res for the cooking shows?

I use a Feedreader screensaver to deliver my RSS feeds in an automated fashion (including autoscrolling) and the 4K allows for clear and easy to read text. I much prefer to read an article or three from a source I like rather than listen to a tv or something while I wash dishes.

But 4K is the way things are heading, some material looks fantastic.