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Mid range computer <$1k

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By the way, HP/Compaq appears to exclusively contract a PSU manufacturer called Bestec. Their top-model X2 system is sold with a 400W unit, while the bottom-model Sempron system uses a 300W unit. I wasn't able to determine the amperages.

So far in this latest turn to the thread, we've seen a lot of "you get what you pay for" speak, peppered with a few ad hominem attacks and an Antec success story. Big surprise.
 
Originally posted by: svi
We have had this exact discussion before, hurtstotalktoyou, and last time I believe we both agreed on the value of PSUs from reputable ODMs (as opposed to "generics"). LINK

I am surprised that you would forget so soon and continue to claim that you have seen no evidence when not only does said evidence exist, you have explicitly acknowledged its existence and agreed that it has value. The only rational and non-insulting explanation I can offer is poor long-term memory; if this is true, I strongly advise writing things like this down for future references as so to avoid pointless, time-wasting arguments. That works wonders for me.

I'm not sure what you're reading. Nowhere in that thread did I agree with you that name brand PSUs are required for successful operation. I did say that you presented a valid argument, but it was far from convincing.
 
Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
By the way, HP/Compaq appears to exclusively contract a PSU manufacturer called Bestec. Their top-model X2 system is sold with a 400W unit, while the bottom-model Sempron system uses a 300W unit. I wasn't able to determine the amperages.

So far in this latest turn to the thread, we've seen a lot of "you get what you pay for" speak, peppered with a few ad hominem attacks and an Antec success story. Big surprise.

if you use what you preach then i would take a different view on it. go buy a $15 psu, run the machine hard for a year and then give us a report.

Bestec 400W PSU

i doubt these would be your $15 psus with dual 12V and activ pfc...
 
I'm not sure what you're reading. Nowhere in that thread did I agree with you that name brand PSUs are required for successful operation. I did say that you presented a valid argument, but it was far from convincing.
If you feel that I presented a valid argument, and you were clearly unable to present a valid counter to that argument, what does that tell you about the argument you're making? I'll spell it out for you: either you can't make a valid counter-argument because none exists, or you can't make a valid counter-argument because you do not know enough about the subject to do so. Either way, it is quite clear that you should not be pushing your point.
 
Hmm. That's interesting about the Bestec. Of course, that's not necessarily the 5187-6134 model found in HP X2 systems, but it does raise some questions.

I had a 200W PSU with a single 10A +12v rail in my HP Pavilion a734n (Athlon XP 2400+). Before I got this latest PSU, I ran my Sempron 2800+ (overclocked to 2.28 GHz) on it for a while. Before that, I used a generic PSU/case combo I'd gotten for ~$30. I was running a P4 2.4B overclocked to 2.93 GHz with some 32MB ATI video card, two hard disks and two optical drives. A couple years ago I built an Athlon XP 1700+ system for my Mom, also with a ~$30 PSU/case combo, and it's still going strong. Before that, I used an even older generic PSU/case combo for a K6-2 500 MHz, and another for an Athlon "Thunderbird" 950 MHz. So this new Antec number would be the first name-brand PSU I've ever owned, and certainly the most powerful.

But don't you see that it doesn't matter what I've owned, or what you have? These are just little stories about personal success or failure. To get an accurate picture of what's going on, you'd have to look at the big picture, at the thousands of PSUs shipped out across the country in the last several years. What are the failure rates of generic PSUs versus that of name-brand units? And do the failed units damage other system components?
 
Originally posted by: svi

If you feel that I presented a valid argument, and you were clearly unable to present a valid counter to that argument, what does that tell you about the argument you're making? In case you're not much use with reasoning, I'll spell it out for you: either you can't make a valid counter-argument because none exists, or you can't make a valid counter-argument because you do not know enough about the subject to do so. Either way, it is quite clear that you should not be pushing your point.

I did present an argument, and I believe it makes much more sense than yours. That you don't agree doesn't mean it's not "valid."

Also, can you make just one post without tossing around insults?
 
Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
Hmm. That's interesting about the Bestec. Of course, that's not necessarily the 5187-6134 model found in HP X2 systems, but it does raise some questions.

I had a 200W PSU with a single 10A +12v rail in my HP Pavilion a734n (Athlon XP 2400+). Before I got this latest PSU, I ran my Sempron 2800+ (overclocked to 2.28 GHz) on it for a while. Before that, I used a generic PSU/case combo I'd gotten for ~$30. I was running a P4 2.4B overclocked to 2.93 GHz with some 32MB ATI video card, two hard disks and two optical drives. A couple years ago I built an Athlon XP 1700+ system for my Mom, also with a ~$30 PSU/case combo, and it's still going strong. Before that, I used an even older generic PSU/case combo for a K6-2 500 MHz, and another for an Athlon "Thunderbird" 950 MHz. So this new Antec number would be the first name-brand PSU I've ever owned, and certainly the most powerful.

But don't you see that it doesn't matter what I've owned, or what you have? These are just little stories about personal success or failure. To get an accurate picture of what's going on, you'd have to look at the big picture, at the thousands of PSUs shipped out across the country in the last several years. What are the failure rates of generic PSUs versus that of name-brand units? And do the failed units damage other system components?

i agree that our amount of uses is far too small. but, i would point out that the use of inferior quality parts does have problems, like the ones with the 430W antecs and all the leaking capacitors on those particular units(seems like a 430W unit problem). one would make the assumption that if you pay more for a psu you won't have this issue, which is not the case and antec is taking care of the said problem. just like the capacitor issues years ago with all of the swollen caps on the m/bs because of inferior parts. one would think and is usually correct that if you are only paying $15 for a psu then your chances of getting a unit with inferior parts is higher than a $50 psu. plus you also have to weigh in on the warranty. if you buy a $15 psu and it has issues, i doubt the company would do anything about it, but if you pay $50, the company has more of a commitment to stand behind their product.
 
But don't you see that it doesn't matter what I've owned, or what you have? These are just little stories about personal success or failure. To get an accurate picture of what's going on, you'd have to look at the big picture, at the thousands of PSUs shipped out across the country in the last several years. What are the failure rates of generic PSUs versus that of name-brand units? And do the failed units damage other system components?
You're right about that, actually. Anecdotal evidence is useless. These little tales of horror and explosions are little use to anyone, and to use them alone as evidence would be logically fallacious (hasty generalization). I can, however, provide real evidence, both practical and theoretical.

Theoretical: Cheapo units (I don't mean cheap units, I mean cheap crappy ones) use lower-quality components, meaning that there is a normal tendency for many to operate out of ATX spec (especially wrt AC ripple) even if QC is perfect and there are no duds. If, operating purely on calculations (a pain in the ass, to be sure, but it counts), it is shown that there is a high probability (there's always that tinier-than-tiny chance that each ultra-low-quality crappy part will perform perfectly at spec, variation and all that) of a good chunk of each batch operating out of ATX spec in the real world, then many will make it out onto the market.

More Theoretical: It seems obvious that cheapo PSU makers will skimp on whatever they can. It's clear that they skimp on components (clear if you open 'em up, anyway), and it follows that if they skimp on the most important part of the thing, they'll certainly aim to cut money in QC-- meaning more duds.

Practical: Buyers of cheapo generics experience more issues than buyers of higher-quality PSUs. If you add up all the anecdotal evidence and good/bad reviews out there, you do eventually reach a usable sample size. If you're not comfortable with the amount of effort needed to do that sort of aggregation, ask a medium-size reseller how many returns they have for Brand X and how many they have for Brand Y, where one brand is widely thought to be crappier than the other (say, Powmax and Fortron). As long as you find a human, you will get a nice big sample size.


I did present an argument, and I believe it makes much more sense than yours. That you don't agree doesn't mean it's not "valid."

Also, can you make just one post without tossing around insults?
Your argument was "that's a pretty good argument you've got there, but I still don't believe it." That's not an argument, much less a valid argument. It is an unqualified refusal. (To make things clear: in this context, I mean unqualified as the refusal itself not being qualified or explained, not any kind of personal attack on your credentials.)

What, exactly, do you find offensive? Do you feel that calling your argument invalid qualified as an insult, or do you find an insult in my explication of the possibility that you don't know of a relevant counter-argument? I'd like to know this. (Side note: these really are the only logical reasons for not raising a valid counter-argument. I sincerely apologize if either offends you, but one of the two really must be a fact.)
 
I'm sure there's some tendency towards reliablity if you get a Seasonic instead of a generic model, but is that reliability significant?

For example, let's say that only 1 in every 2,000 Seasonic PSUs fail within the lifespan of the PCs they power, while generic PSUs have a failure rate of 1 in every 500 (keep in mind these numbers are completely arbitrary, and only meant to illustrate an example). That means that although the generic failure rate is quadruple that of the Seasonic, it's still a difference of only 0.15%.

The question is, what are the real numbers? If generics have a success rate of 499/500, why pay an extra $50-$100 to improve that number to 1,999/2,000? Maybe if the success rate was as low as 49/50, or even 99/100, I could see spending the extra cash.

Anyway, the point is that it doesn't matter if name-brand PSUs are more reliable than generics. What matters is how reliable the generics are, comparisons aside.
 
I'm sure there's some tendency towards reliablity if you get a Seasonic instead of a generic model, but is that reliability significant?

For example, let's say that only 1 in every 2,000 Seasonic PSUs fail within the lifespan of the PCs they power, while generic PSUs have a failure rate of 1 in every 500 (keep in mind these numbers are completely arbitrary, and only meant to illustrate an example). That means that although the generic failure rate is quadruple that of the Seasonic, it's still a difference of only 0.15%.

The question is, what are the real numbers? If generics have a success rate of 499/500, why pay an extra $50-$100 to improve that number to 1,999/2,000? Maybe if the success rate was as low as 49/50, or even 99/100, I could see spending the extra cash.
That's where practical evidence comes in. As I said, if you are uncomfortable with the task of attempting to aggregate all the anecotal evidence out there, contact a medium-size reseller and get in touch with someone who is both able to and allowed to tell you how many returns per n purchases they have for two different brands of PSUs. While probably not equal to defects per x purchases, the measurements should be directly proportional.

On a side note, as someone who has done more large-scale assembly and maintenance than he would like to have done over several lifetimes (hey, a job's a job), failure rate out of the box is worse than 1/2000 for even the average-quality brand name PSU. 49/50 is optimistic for Powmax-class units (which is why OEMs, Packard Bell et al aside, don't generally package that grade of crap with their computers). I realize this says nothing about comparisons between generic and non-generic, but if you want an idea of the scales we're dealing with here, there you go. And this says nothing about the units that fail in a matter of weeks or months..


Anyway, the point is that it doesn't matter if name-brand PSUs are more reliable than generics. What matters is how reliable the generics are, comparisons aside.
I'd say it does matter, actually, and quite a bit at that. It matters how reliable generics are if you want to buy a generic, it matters how reliable Brand/ODM X generally is if you want to buy a Brand/ODM X, it matters how they compare if you're trying to decide between the two, and all three matter if you just want a new power supply.
 
do you have 56k? i notice you have "Intel Ambient v.92 56K Modem ($14)"

your system right now is pretty good its not worth spending the money to get a new system. When you can run the latest games why get a new comp if anything upgrade graphics card.
 
Originally posted by: svi

Theoretical: Cheapo units (I don't mean cheap units, I mean cheap crappy ones) use lower-quality components, meaning that there is a normal tendency for many to operate out of ATX spec (especially wrt AC ripple) even if QC is perfect and there are no duds. If, operating purely on calculations (a pain in the ass, to be sure, but it counts), it is shown that there is a high probability (there's always that tinier-than-tiny chance that each ultra-low-quality crappy part will perform perfectly at spec, variation and all that) of a good chunk of each batch operating out of ATX spec in the real world, then many will make it out onto the market.

More Theoretical: It seems obvious that cheapo PSU makers will skimp on whatever they can. It's clear that they skimp on components (clear if you open 'em up, anyway), and it follows that if they skimp on the most important part of the thing, they'll certainly aim to cut money in QC-- meaning more duds.

"QC"? You'll have to elaborate for me; I'm relatively new to the lingo.

Anyway, I know cheap PSUs often mean cut corners, but how does that translate into real world stability and life-span?

Practical: Buyers of cheapo generics experience more issues than buyers of higher-quality PSUs. If you add up all the anecdotal evidence and good/bad reviews out there, you do eventually reach a usable sample size. If you're not comfortable with the amount of effort needed to do that sort of aggregation, ask a medium-size reseller how many returns they have for Brand X and how many they have for Brand Y, where one brand is widely thought to be crappier than the other (say, Powmax and Fortron). As long as you find a human, you will get a nice big sample size.

Like I said above, it doesn't really matter how reliable the name brand units are if the generics already satisfy. Do you really want to pay an extra $50+ in a budget or mid-range system when you know a basic PSU has a 99% or better chance of successful operation?

Your argument was "that's a pretty good argument you've got there, but I still don't believe it." That's not an argument, much less a valid argument.

Nor was it my argument...

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

I admit, that does seem reasonable. Still, I'd like to hear more about the specific effects of excessive ripple on system performance/stability before I shell out an extra $50 for a name-brand PSU.

...in other words, the evidence you gave goes along with your point, but it is not significantly suggestive, much less proof.
 
"QC"? You'll have to elaborate for me; I'm relatively new to the lingo.
QC = Quality Control. Basically, the people that test for duds before they reach the reseller.


Anyway, I know cheap PSUs often mean cut corners, but how does that translate into real world stability and life-span?
Like I said above, it doesn't really matter how reliable the name brand units are if the generics already satisfy. Do you really want to pay an extra $50+ in a budget or mid-range system when you know a basic PSU has a 99% or better chance of successful operation?
See above comments on practical measurements and failure rate.

New holes to poke: it's not an extra $50+. You can get a solid FSP Group unit for $30-40, so unless someone's paying you to take their Powmax (not entirely out of the question, I suppose) you'd have a hard time hitting that price difference. Also, I would not call crappy PSUs "basic," as that implies limited feature set instead of low quality.


Nor was it my argument...
...in other words, the evidence you gave goes along with your point, but it is not significantly suggestive, much less proof.
You wouldn't call a given generic PSU selected for review operating far out of spec "significantly suggestive"? No offense meant, but the fact that you don't know how excessive AC ripple is harmful doesn't mean that showing its existence is meaningless.

If you want to know about the specific effects of excessive ripple on electronic components (beyond how they were explained in that thread), open an electronics or electrical engineering text book. Long story short: harder on the power regulation circuitry, impacting lifetime and probably heat output, and can cause stability issues where onboard power regulation circuitry is not capable of dealing with said ripple.
 
Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
I'm sure there's some tendency towards reliablity if you get a Seasonic instead of a generic model, but is that reliability significant?

For example, let's say that only 1 in every 2,000 Seasonic PSUs fail within the lifespan of the PCs they power, while generic PSUs have a failure rate of 1 in every 500 (keep in mind these numbers are completely arbitrary, and only meant to illustrate an example). That means that although the generic failure rate is quadruple that of the Seasonic, it's still a difference of only 0.15%.

The question is, what are the real numbers? If generics have a success rate of 499/500, why pay an extra $50-$100 to improve that number to 1,999/2,000? Maybe if the success rate was as low as 49/50, or even 99/100, I could see spending the extra cash.

Anyway, the point is that it doesn't matter if name-brand PSUs are more reliable than generics. What matters is how reliable the generics are, comparisons aside.

Generic is becoming a pretty loose term...

I can say that in my experience is the less you're willing to pay the less you will get. The bottom of the barrel units have pretty terrible reliability, as high as 75% failure isn't uncommon for the worst of them. I've pulled several dead cheap units from systems; some "no-names", some known to be unreliable (DEER, Codgen, ect.). What can be worse is how low quality units fail; often taking other expensive pieces of hardware with them, a high quality unit should safe guard hardware from such failures.

The only quality PSU that I?ve seen die was mATX Delta that was suffocated with dust. When a high quality Forton-Source can be had for $30-$40 why take any unnecessary chances.
 
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