Microwave vs stove - Heating water

[PlasmaBomb]

Microwave with distilled water and a container that is absolutely free of imperfections.

Let me know how that works for you.

You are bad...

 

[grrl]

I was being as accurate as possible so that asshats wouldn't make such statements like "what about the safety grounds, DURRRR".. We're not talking about 208 single phase... I'm talking about 220/240 SPLIT PHASE. Pay attention! Hell for all I know, you think I'm talking about the difference between 208V 50hz and 120V 60hz.. D:

I see I missed that. Maybe you should learn to properly explain yourself in your initial post and not jump around later randomly inserting nonsense no one has mentioned like 50Hz versus 60Hz. However, I realize that is a typical fleabag trait.

 

[sdifox]

Wow what a trainwreck this thread has become!

lol it's a fleabag thread, they all go this way.

 

[Nox51]

You do realize we're not talking about warming up the truck at Lake Tahoe, do you?

Dude we're in a fleabag thread. We always talk about warming up the truck at lake Tahoe in winter, about sidewall tire pressure and now about electric kettles too.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

"Originally Posted by fleabag
I don't know about your inefficient pos you drive but most cars only briefly open the thermostat."




Give the kid a break. He's right. But only because most cars are only driven briefly. 10 minutes to work. 10 minutes back home... The thermostat is probably only open a total of 12 minutes a day (I'm basing this on a Sable that took 4 minutes to open from turning it on and immediately driving it at 55mph) The other 23 hours & 48 minutes of the day, the thermostat is closed. Hmmm... well, it probably takes a couple minutes after the car is off before it closes. Hmmm... Closed for over 23 hours a day, so technically the blind squirrel has found a nut.

Depends on how you measure it....

If you use the vehicle for 20 minutes and it takes a while after the car is stopped (1 hour in your example...) the thermostat is open for 300% of the vehicles operating time.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Hes a successful physics teacher with a degree and you're a random shit head 17 year old taking CC classes

That's your answer

Did my fix make it more accurate?

Nope he is 15 or quite possibly 16 now since it's been a while...

 

[Cogman]

"vast majority" sure but there are still some losses and so to say it's 100% efficient is a misnomer because there are losses from transferring the energy all the way from the powerplant directly into your food.

Where, in any of my posts did I ever say 100% efficient? I've done enough math and physics to know there is no such thing.

Also when people proclaim such crap as "electric heating is 100% efficient", they never account for the energy losses not only in generating the electricity at the powerplant but also the losses transmitting it to the house.

Which is the same energy lost regardless if you use a microwave or electric kettle. Power companies don't transmit at 120Vac or 220Vac. They transmit at as high a voltage as possible to avoid power losses. Then, as close to the house(s) as possible, they transform down to the 120Vac. At that point, losses due to wiring are negligible. Meaning, 120Vac and 220Vac are going to have nearly the same amount of loss. It is dumb to talk about the power grid at all. Your question involved several household methods for heating water, in which case you ignore the method of power delivery (such is the standard.)

If you really wanted to get fancy. You should be balancing the loads on either side of the 220 tri-phase power that is common to most homes to achieve optimum efficiency. But again, that is besides the point.

I know, this is what I wanted to discuss when I started this thread...

yeah. uh huh....

 

[fleabag]

Where, in any of my posts did I ever say 100% efficient? I've done enough math and physics to know there is no such thing.

You may not have but other posters did and so it was a "reply all" more than just a reply to you only.

Which is the same energy lost regardless if you use a microwave or electric kettle. Power companies don't transmit at 120Vac or 220Vac. They transmit at as high a voltage as possible to avoid power losses. Then, as close to the house(s) as possible, they transform down to the 120Vac. At that point, losses due to wiring are negligible. Meaning, 120Vac and 220Vac are going to have nearly the same amount of loss. It is dumb to talk about the power grid at all. Your question involved several household methods for heating water, in which case you ignore the method of power delivery (such is the standard.)

Well a Microwave vs Electric Kettle which are at the same voltage, then the discussion is strictly limited to which appliance is more efficient.. in that case I'd say the Microwave considering that both devices use around 10a @ 120v yet the Microwave will heat that water in 1/3 of the time of the kettle. That's what these "100% efficient" people don't get, if you look at all the losses down the line, it's most certainly not 100% efficient. Now in the case of my original question of Microwave vs Stove, I have no idea. While there are more losses in the household wiring used to power the Microwave compared to the Stove, the Stove doesn't have nearly the same efficiency in heating the water like the Microwave does since the Microwave heats just the food and the Stove heats everything.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Wow what a trainwreck this thread has become!

It was destined to be so since its inception...

*ommmm*

 

[PlasmaBomb]

I see I missed that. Maybe you should learn to properly explain yourself in your initial post and not jump around later randomly inserting nonsense no one has mentioned like 50Hz versus 60Hz. However, I realize that is a typical fleabag trait.

Yup!

 

[GoSharks]

well a microwave vs electric kettle which are at the same voltage, then the discussion is strictly limited to which appliance is more efficient.. In that case i'd say the microwave considering that both devices use around 10a @ 120v yet the microwave will heat that water in 1/3 of the time of the kettle.

orly.

 

[Cogman]

Well a Microwave vs Electric Kettle which are at the same voltage, then the discussion is strictly limited to which appliance is more efficient.. in that case I'd say the Microwave considering that both devices use around 10a @ 120v yet the Microwave will heat that water in 1/3 of the time of the kettle. That's what these "100% efficient" people don't get, if you look at all the losses down the line, it's most certainly not 100% efficient. Now in the case of my original question of Microwave vs Stove, I have no idea. While there are more losses in the household wiring used to power the Microwave compared to the Stove, the Stove doesn't have nearly the same efficiency in heating the water like the Microwave does since the Microwave heats just the food and the Stove heats everything.

Yeah, no.

Microwave heats everything that absorbs the visible spectrum of light that it is emitting. If I put a certain clay bowls into the microwave, they will absorb the lions share of the microwaves, leaving the bowl hot and the food cold. Couple that with the fact that neither your, nor I, know the exact spectrum that is being emitted by the microwave and all the sudden we don't know exactly how efficient it is.

Here's what we need to properly gauge which is more efficient.

1. The wattage rating of each device.
2. The volume of water being heated.
3. The time it takes to heat said water.

I've got an oven and a microwave, I'll report back which is actually more efficient. If anyone has a kettle, I can do the math so long as you provide me with how much water you are using and the wattage rating. That should put the whole thing to rest.

 

[fleabag]

orly.

rly

 

[fleabag]

Yeah, no.

Microwave heats everything that absorbs the visible spectrum of light that it is emitting. If I put a certain clay bowls into the microwave, they will absorb the lions share of the microwaves, leaving the bowl hot and the food cold. Couple that with the fact that neither your, nor I, know the exact spectrum that is being emitted by the microwave and all the sudden we don't know exactly how efficient it is.

Here's what we need to properly gauge which is more efficient.

1. The wattage rating of each device.
2. The volume of water being heated.
3. The time it takes to heat said water.

I've got an oven and a microwave, I'll report back which is actually more efficient. If anyone has a kettle, I can do the math so long as you provide me with how much water you are using and the wattage rating. That should put the whole thing to rest.

Well you can't go by just wattage rating because something rated at 250 watts like a computer power supply isn't necessarily using 250 watts.

 

[Nox51]

You're not using a bloody computer power supply to boil your water.

 

[Cogman]

Well you can't go by just wattage rating because something rated at 250 watts like a computer power supply isn't necessarily using 250 watts.

Yes, you can. The wattage rating of a heating element is how much power it consumes when the full votage is applied to it.

For a microwave, it is how much is consumed in normal operation. PC wattage ratings are based on the maximum wattage the PSU can handle. Big difference from the way other appliances are rated. Scared of the results?

A 900W range (not easy info to come by btw) element heated .5 L of water in 3 minutes and 58 seconds.

A 1000W microwave heated the same volume of water, in a glass container, in 3:40.

900W * 238 seconds = 214200 Joules
1000W * 220 seconds = 220000 Joules

The Winner by a hair, the oven. Can we put this thing to rest now?

*Measurements were taken from water at room temperature. The pot used for the oven experiment completely covered the element. Boiling was considered to be the point when the first few bubbles came up from the water. The oven pot was NOT covered. Higher efficiency would have resulted.

 

[Cogman]

BTW for those interested. Room temperature was 65F (or 15 C, I like it cool). Specific heat of water is 4,187 J/kgC, giving ideal of 177,947J for .5 liters pure water (which is NOT what I was working with). Gives an efficiency of ~83% Not too bad really.

 

[GoSharks]

rly

Source?

 

[fleabag]

Yes, you can. The wattage rating of a heating element is how much power it consumes when the full votage is applied to it.

For a microwave, it is how much is consumed in normal operation. PC wattage ratings are based on the maximum wattage the PSU can handle. Big difference from the way other appliances are rated. Scared of the results?

A 900W range (not easy info to come by btw) element heated .5 L of water in 3 minutes and 58 seconds.

A 1000W microwave heated the same volume of water, in a glass container, in 3:40.

900W * 238 seconds = 214200 Joules
1000W * 220 seconds = 220000 Joules

The Winner by a hair, the oven. Can we put this thing to rest now?

*Measurements were taken from water at room temperature. The pot used for the oven experiment completely covered the element. Boiling was considered to be the point when the first few bubbles came up from the water. The oven pot was NOT covered. Higher efficiency would have resulted.

First you say range then you say oven.. There aren't enough variables that have been controlled and you haven't actually measured anything, just estimated it. Estimating isn't useful especially when you come to a conclusion such as "winner by a hair".. I think I need to submit this question to mythbusters.

 

[grrl]

First you say range then you say oven.. There aren't enough variables that have been controlled and you haven't actually measured anything, just estimated it. Estimating isn't useful especially when you come to a conclusion such as "winner by a hair".. I think I need to submit this question to mythbusters.

LOL.

fleabag beat me to his own predictable response...

<snip>

But we still need to know the gauge of the outlet wiring and power cords plus whether you were using single phase or split phase service and if the hertzage was US or European and whether or not the light wasted by my flourescent cave illuminators helped heat the water in the oven and....

 

[Cogman]

First you say range then you say oven.. There aren't enough variables that have been controlled and you haven't actually measured anything, just estimated it. Estimating isn't useful especially when you come to a conclusion such as "winner by a hair".. I think I need to submit this question to mythbusters.

Yes, because I use different terminology all the sudden what I say doesn't matter . And because the answer isn't what you want it to be, you reject it. In the western states, oven and range are interchangeable.

The microwaves water would have had to go a full 6 seconds faster in order for it to have been as efficient as the oven. My measuring may not have been accurate, but not that inaccurate.

In other words, By a hair means the percentage of difference won't be that big. But, in the end, the oven was definitely more efficient then the microwave.

 

[canis]

Yes, you can. The wattage rating of a heating element is how much power it consumes when the full votage is applied to it.

For a microwave, it is how much is consumed in normal operation. PC wattage ratings are based on the maximum wattage the PSU can handle. Big difference from the way other appliances are rated. Scared of the results?

A 900W range (not easy info to come by btw) element heated .5 L of water in 3 minutes and 58 seconds.

A 1000W microwave heated the same volume of water, in a glass container, in 3:40.

900W * 238 seconds = 214200 Joules
1000W * 220 seconds = 220000 Joules

The Winner by a hair, the oven. Can we put this thing to rest now?

*Measurements were taken from water at room temperature. The pot used for the oven experiment completely covered the element. Boiling was considered to be the point when the first few bubbles came up from the water. The oven pot was NOT covered. Higher efficiency would have resulted.

1000 watts is most likely not the power drawn from the wall. Does it say 1000 watts on the front of the microwave? There are a lot of other critical errors in your reasoning.

 

[Cogman]

1000 watts is most likely not the power drawn from the wall. Does it say 1000 watts on the front of the microwave? There are a lot of other critical errors in your reasoning.

Inside the door.

And yes, 1000W is in fact, the maximum power consumption of the microwave. That power consumption is achieved when the microwave is on high (which it was.)

If there are several "Critical errors" in my reasoning, I'd be glad to hear them.

 

[canis]

Inside the door.

And yes, 1000W is in fact, the maximum power consumption of the microwave. That power consumption is achieved when the microwave is on high (which it was.)

If there are several "Critical errors" in my reasoning, I'd be glad to hear them.

1000 watts is the cooking power. Wall power is higher. Check the back.

 

[Cogman]

1000 watts is the cooking power. Wall power is higher. Check the back.

Sooo. Your saying that If I did err, it was in the fact that the microwave draws even more power then I would have assumed...

Ok, the microwave has a 14amp at 120V maximum rating, IE 1680W. I'm going to assume that it never actually hits that rating. However, it is safe to say that the microwave is less efficient then the oven.

(The ovens wattage rating should be spot on as it really is just a giant resistor).

Any other critical flaws?