Microsoft trains Best Buy Linux assassins

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Speaking of patches, MS just said they won't release a patch for XP SP2 and SP3 even though they're affected because they have a firewall enabled by default. How's that for "on your own".

http://www.microsoft.com/techn...bulletin/ms09-048.mspx

Yea, that's one of the biggest downsides to closed source software. You're at the mercy of the issuing company with regards to fixes.

 

[Nothinman]

Yea, that's one of the biggest downsides to closed source software. You're at the mercy of the issuing company with regards to fixes.

With regards to everything. And in this case they're even acknowledging the bug but aren't patching it just because their firewall ducttapes over it in the default configuration. I guess if you disable the Windows Firewall you're not in a supported configuration anymore.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Yea, that's one of the biggest downsides to closed source software. You're at the mercy of the issuing company with regards to fixes.

Isn't that the case no matter where you get your software from? Most of us aren't capable of writing and testing security patches for our OS. We count on somebody else to do this for us and hope they know what they are doing and have tested the result.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Yea, that's one of the biggest downsides to closed source software. You're at the mercy of the issuing company with regards to fixes.

Isn't that the case no matter where you get your software from? Most of us aren't capable of writing and testing security patches for our OS. We count on somebody else to do this for us and hope they know what they are doing and have tested the result.

Yea, but you have options with open source. Those options don't always make sense for a home user, but it could be a big deal for corporate users. With open source you can fix it yourself, or pay someone else to do it for you. With closed source you file a bug report and hope for the best.

 

[RebateMonger]

The strange thing is that MS has OKed the patch for Windows Server 2003, but not for XP. Presumably, the fixes are very similar.

 

[Nothinman]

The strange thing is that MS has OKed the patch for Windows Server 2003, but not for XP. Presumably, the fixes are very similar.

Or exactly the same. If you look at the FAQ they specifically say that in XP there's a firewall on by default so that's good enough.

 

[TheKub]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
And the KDE and Gnome UIs are pretty much as close to Win98 as Vista or W7 are so she would be fine there too then.

And I can't deny that, but you were specifically saying that MS was lying that the end user wouldnt have to relearn anything, which is false. Dont try to change the subject.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
They have 3 levels of home user support and online training.

Thats good to hear, I did some quick google searches and was only finding enterprise server support options.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
For a normal notebook or desktop I'd agree, but not so much with a netbook. For most people that stuff would probably fall under the "would be nice" category.

That may be the case, but using a camera\ipod are not out of the realm of what the limited power of a netbook should be able to perform. And though this is not a linux comment since the price difference between a nicer netbook and entry level laptop can be $50-$100 more people would be better off with the laptop.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
The last few cameras I've seen all showed up as USB storage devices and gphoto2 supports a lot of the proprietary camera protocols for those that don't...

I don't own an iPod myself, but I've heard that Rhythmbox works pretty well with them. It's not iTunes, but in many ways that's probably a good thing.

Then we get in the realm making people have to relearn\learn new stuff, which most people really dont want (especially if the price difference between a Linux and MS system is $50). They dont know gphoto2 or rhythmbox even exist. They know they need ITunes to sync their IPod and thats where they like to buy their songs too (does rhythmbox have a store?).

Listen I dont have anything against linux, I whole heartedly give thumbs up to the whole open source movement. I am not a heavy Linux user. You are obviously a big fan and also atleast proficient with Linux. This takes us out of the loop to effectively debate the ease of use\end user experience becasue I dont know it well enough and you know it too well to possibly accurately understand the "Joe Blow" experience.

 

[dfnkt]

I have a single argument to any best buy employee buys into this. If Linux is such a bad operating system and all, why does dell bother shipping computers with Ubuntu and furthermore, why did they bother RENEWING this contract recently?

 

[Nothinman]

And I can't deny that, but you were specifically saying that MS was lying that the end user wouldnt have to relearn anything, which is false. Dont try to change the subject.

Guess I did reply to your statement out of context, sorry. Unless the user is coming from Vista they would have to relearn things, even I still can't find some stuff in Vista/2008 when I've got to touch one of those boxes.

That may be the case, but using a camera\ipod are not out of the realm of what the limited power of a netbook should be able to perform. And though this is not a linux comment since the price difference between a nicer netbook and entry level laptop can be $50-$100 more people would be better off with the laptop.

And like I said, most cameras and ipods do work in Linux so I don't see the problem.

Then we get in the realm making people have to relearn\learn new stuff, which most people really dont want (especially if the price difference between a Linux and MS system is $50). They dont know gphoto2 or rhythmbox even exist. They know they need ITunes to sync their IPod and thats where they like to buy their songs too (does rhythmbox have a store?).

They don't have to know about gphoto2, it's the background support library. When they plug in their camera Gnome will popup and say "Ooh, a camera. Would you like to copy those pictures?".

I can't speak to Rhythmbox, I don't use it nor do I own an iPod. I just know what I've seen on IRC and the web. I don't know if Rhythmbox can interface with the iTunes Store, however a quick google says that Amarok (the default music player for KDE) does.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Speaking of patches, MS just said they won't release a patch for XP SP2 and SP3 even though they're affected because they have a firewall enabled by default. How's that for "on your own".

http://www.microsoft.com/techn...bulletin/ms09-048.mspx

Now THAT is bullshit. If you have File and Print sharing enabled, it automatically punches a hole in the firewall for it.

If you have a laptop that is used both for file-sharing on a local home LAN, as well as roams on wifi hotspots, it will definately be vulnerable.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
The strange thing is that MS has OKed the patch for Windows Server 2003, but not for XP. Presumably, the fixes are very similar.

They're not fixing it "for marketing reasons". It gives them the ability to say, "see, look at Windows 7. It's more secure than XP. Upgrade now."

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
They're not fixing it "for marketing reasons". It gives them the ability to say, "see, look at Windows 7. It's more secure than XP. Upgrade now."

Or....there could be "risks" in performing that patch on XP that might be lesser on Server 2003. Since the patch obviously affects TCP connections, maybe it causes problems with P2P software (or similar) which spawn numerous connections. That'd likely be how the DOS would be initiated. People seldom run P2P on servers, but many do on XP.

After all, it IS just a DOS problem. That's much less worrisome than a remote takeover of the PC. And most XP boxes are behind home router/firewalls and aren't likely have the required open ports on the router. And then there's the built-in XP firewall which also avoids this attack by default. And when was the last time you heard of an XP box having a Denial of Service attack? Servers, yes. Desktops, no.

I don't know why MS skipped this patch for XP, but there could be technical reasons that could make it likely to CAUSE more problems than it fixes.

 

[Nothinman]

Or....there could be "risks" in performing that patch on XP that might be lesser on Server 2003.

They specifically say in the FAQ that XP isn't patched because it has a firewall enabled by default.

Since the patch obviously affects TCP connections, maybe it causes problems with P2P software (or similar) which spawn numerous connections. That'd likely be how the DOS would be initiated. People seldom run P2P on servers, but many do on XP.

P2P applications are already largely screwed since Window only allowed so many outbound outstanding, open TCP connections.

After all, it IS just a DOS problem. That's much less worrisome than a remote takeover of the PC.

Irrelevant. There's a huge bug in their TCP/IP stack and IMO it should be fixed, regardless of what people can do with it right now. Today it's a DoS but tomorrow it might be a remote exploit.

I don't know why MS skipped this patch for XP, but there could be technical reasons that could make it likely to CAUSE more problems than it fixes

Their FAQ specically says they skipped it because there's a firewall on by default. So I guess if you venture away from MS' defaults you on your own these days...

 

[theprodigalrebel]

Apart from the 'Windows is safer' bit, there is nothing wrong with that presentation. They are touting familiarity, ease of use and compatibility with a wide range of software and peripherals and are right on those counts. If I had to compose that presentation, I'd either omit that slide/page or go with 'Windows is as safe as Linux'. 😛 Claiming superiority over the competition doesn't mean you can't acknowledge that the competition does at least some things right. Especially since Windows' questionable history with security/stability is common knowledge and even non-technical people (who may have heard of Linux but never used it) are somewhat aware of Linux being a 'serious business' OS.

The average retail store shopper seeking advice from a salesman is probably going to ask questions about viruses or being scammed on the Internet. (If you've worked customer service, you have definitely spoken to at least a few hundred senior citizens that refuse to get a debit card and/or Internet connection because they think that combination automatically means you are going to get scammed). A BB salesman can easily dodge that that question with, "Well, Windows has all these security suites available, Linux not so much." 😉

 

[Modelworks]

The biggest turn off with first time linux users is having to type something to get it to work. Linux is still not a click and use operating system. There are many times that in order to get something to work you have to open a terminal and either edit a configuration file or run some commands. That may not seem like a big deal for linux users but it is huge for people who are used to clicking their way through everything. When a friend installed a new nvidia driver and then rebooted and got dumped to a prompt because X wouldn't load he wasn't happy. When he had to edit configuration files using vi he was even less happy. By the time he got back to the desktop and then was told that in order to get his network problems fixed he would have to edit another file and understand things like routing, he formatted the partition.

The other problem with linux is the users themselves. They need to drop this holier than though attitude on a lot of the help forums. Telling a new user to RTFM only pushes them away. Others using the attitude of, well you just need to spend time with it, or , I can't help you if you aren't willing to learn, again puts people off . I started using linux back when it was text only and was lucky to find a friend online who walked me through everything very patiently. Had I been approached by some in the community forums now I would have stayed with windows.

 

[Nothinman]

The biggest turn off with first time linux users is having to type something to get it to work. Linux is still not a click and use operating system.

But these netbooks come with it preinstalled with all of that stuff configured already so that's a non-issue here.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

The biggest turn off with first time linux users is having to type something to get it to work. Linux is still not a click and use operating system.

But these netbooks come with it preinstalled with all of that stuff configured already so that's a non-issue here.

Yea, but they're virtually non-upgradable. If you use it as-is, and never want to upgrade or add to your software it's easy, but otherwise...

The Xandros that came on my Eee is garbage. while it's useful as is, it doesn't offer much in the way of customization, and it makes the computer more like an appliance.

 

[Nothinman]

and it makes the computer more like an appliance

Which is probably the whole point. I personally would want more flexibility and control than comes with the default install, but for someone who really did buy it just to browse the Internet, email, take notes in class, watch videos on a flight, etc the default set of software is probably fine.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

and it makes the computer more like an appliance

Which is probably the whole point. I personally would want more flexibility and control than comes with the default install, but for someone who really did buy it just to browse the Internet, email, take notes in class, watch videos on a flight, etc the default set of software is probably fine.

And realistically, that's about all the average netbook is capable of. And watching videos is probably pushing it right now.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: Nothinman

and it makes the computer more like an appliance

Which is probably the whole point. I personally would want more flexibility and control than comes with the default install, but for someone who really did buy it just to browse the Internet, email, take notes in class, watch videos on a flight, etc the default set of software is probably fine.

And realistically, that's about all the average netbook is capable of. And watching videos is probably pushing it right now.

Netbooks are highly capable machines. The biggest bottleneck in my Eee is the pokey SSD. I don't have the money to buy a faster drive atm, but it's a cheap enough fix if I chose to.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
I like how being able to run Windows Live is an important bullet point on the 3rd slide...

And I love how they keep touting how Win7 is the same old Windows that meets customer's expectations even though Windows is what has gotten people to expect their PC to run like crap eventually and crash continously.

When a Lilnux vulnerability is found there's no guarantee that an update will be published? MS has downplayed, delayed patching and even refused to patch things in their software. And their EULA screams "You can't can't sue us if a bug in our software loses you money", how reassuring is that?

Well I would have to side with them on this point. I could see a store selling a bunch of linux netbooks and having a bunch of them coming back becasue the user cant install office\<insert name of very important program to them> becasue they didnt know what and OS is.

CompUSA used to have an Apple section, do you think their employees were trained to point you to the Windows section?

Of course CompUSA might not be the best example since they're not exactly around anymore...

Meh, I'm sure Apple trains its store employees in the same sort of marketing doublespeak to handle customers that ask questions about Windows PCs.

Marketing speak is one thing, but some of the points in there are blatant lies.

Having worked at CompUSA I can tell you we steered people away from Macs. I can't tell you how many people came in wanting to buy a Mac, then said they wanted to play the newest games on it. Unless we could tell the person was a "Mac person" we didn't even bother.

Linux is the same way. If someone wants to run Linux, buying a pre configured machine with it isn't the user base they are targeting.