Microsoft: "Never say never" to Xbox 360 games playable on Windows

[nathanddrews]

Phil Spencer tweeted that while it would be more challenging to adapt 360 games to PC hardware than to Xbone, he followed with "but never say never". This would be a game changer for Windows gaming. I know that I would love to play Crackdown 1 and RDR on my PC.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/phil-spencer-backwards-compatibility-pc,33605.html

EDIT

Playstation Now will be exclusive to PC and PS4 later this year, so Microsoft will likely need a BC response eventually. Can't let Sony dominate Windows... ;-)
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/playstation-now-exclusive-ps4-windows,33668.html

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Just so long as it's not some trashy emulation that requires 3x the processing power to get equivalent performance @1080p...

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Wow, so I could finally play Gears of War 1 on PC?

 

[lupi]

I would be more intrigued if I didn't already know about the restrictions with playing xbone stuff on windows.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I would be more intrigued if I didn't already know about the restrictions with playing xbone stuff on windows.

What are those?

 

[JSt0rm]

Just so long as it's not some trashy emulation that requires 3x the processing power to get equivalent performance @1080p...

Im pretty sure we all have 3times the cpu power of a xbox360. Anyways the only way to do it en mass is emulation.

 

[sweenish]

Just so long as it's not some trashy emulation that requires 3x the processing power to get equivalent performance @1080p...

You don't seem to know much about emulation.

 

[Murloc]

I feel like never say never is kinda the microsoft games motto to keep the hype up so it's not news and it's not an announcement.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You don't seem to know much about emulation.

How long did it take for hardware/software combinations to make n64/ps1 games playable via emulation?

 

[JSt0rm]

I feel if Microsoft made the emulation it would be executed better/faster then 3rd partystuff.

 

[Dahak]

I feel if Microsoft made the emulation it would be executed better/faster then 3rd partystuff.

Plus that is essentially how they do it on the Xbone, as at its core it is a stripped down win10/hyper-v core, while not exactly the same as Win10 it should be moderately doable vs saying trying to do it for win7

 

[nathanddrews]

How long did it take for hardware/software combinations to make n64/ps1 games playable via emulation?

Not long. I was using UltraHLE in 1999 (2yrs) and Bleem/ePSXe in 2000 (5yrs) along with everyone else in the emu-community. A concentrated effort by Microsoft could easily provide 360 (12yrs) emulation for PC.

 

[gradoman]

Wow, so I could finally play Gears of War 1 on PC?

That was on PC and recently re-released with some enhancements. It's the rest of them until the most recent one that never made it to PC.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/gears-of-war-ultimate-edition-for-windows-10/9nblggh3shm5

 

[shortylickens]

Bleem may have been officially approved but it worked like crap.
The independent stuff like PCSX and PSXe were a heck of a lot better.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

That was on PC and recently re-released with some enhancements. It's the rest of them until the most recent one that never made it to PC.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/gears-of-war-ultimate-edition-for-windows-10/9nblggh3shm5

Thanks, I forgot about the Ultimate Edition. The Games For Windows Live version might as well have never come out on PC. I mean is that even playable any more?

 

[Ichinisan]

Bleem may have been officially approved but it worked like crap.
The independent stuff like PCSX and PSXe were a heck of a lot better.

Bleem! had no official support from Sony. Sony tried to kill it.

UltraHLE (N64) was way ahead of its time. In my opinion, N64 emulation did not progress satisfactorily after that. The experience today is just terrible.

XBOX probably doesn't need to be "emulated" in that sense if the games all stick to DirectX APIs and devkit libraries. They just need an interpreter to make sure you can adapt the input / sound / video environment stuff.

 

[HitAnyKey]

Maybe something along the lines... Create a virtual appliance that can emulate the 360. Import into Virtual PC and play your games? Oh and let me rip my 360 CDs into ISOs.

 

[nathanddrews]

Bleem may have been officially approved but it worked like crap.
The independent stuff like PCSX and PSXe were a heck of a lot better.

Bleem! had no official support from Sony. Sony tried to kill it. UltraHLE (N64) was way ahead of its time. In my opinion, N64 emulation did not progress satisfactorily after that. The experience today is just terrible.

Bleem was pretty bad, no doubt, but it was good enough to get them sued by Sony. I always wanted to try Bleemcast (the version that worked on Sega Dreamcast), but never did. I learned that the Bleem crew were later hired by Sony to work on their backward compatibility efforts, which is pretty great.

UltraHLE was amazing, but I thought later PJ64 offered a better experience due to the variety of plugins, options, and compatibility. It probably depends on whether you're going for perfection or performance. I'm currently using the Mupen core for Retroarch and so far it has been really, really good, but I prefer to get a playable experience with smoother frame rates over getting things perfectly accurate. I've also been playing with paraLLel - the new one that uses Vulkan API to go for accuracy and it's pretty good.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Bleem was pretty bad, no doubt, but it was good enough to get them sued by Sony. I always wanted to try Bleemcast (the version that worked on Sega Dreamcast), but never did. I learned that the Bleem crew were later hired by Sony to work on their backward compatibility efforts, which is pretty great.

UltraHLE was amazing, but I thought later PJ64 offered a better experience due to the variety of plugins, options, and compatibility. It probably depends on whether you're going for perfection or performance. I'm currently using the Mupen core for Retroarch and so far it has been really, really good, but I prefer to get a playable experience with smoother frame rates over getting things perfectly accurate. I've also been playing with paraLLel - the new one that uses Vulkan API to go for accuracy and it's pretty good.

And this was kind of what I was getting at. Emulation existed in many forms, but usually not perfect with every game, hence innately a little squirrely. This wouldn't be considered acceptable (or, given the state of most console ports, maybe it would be?) nowadays. I'd say the newest batman game is an example of that. The hardware requirements to run it smoothly at release were horrendous compared to what the console required for the same software. If these xbox offerings are the same kind of pathetic afterthought that most console dev groups give toward their PC ports, it'll require 16GB of RAM and a gtx1070 to run Gears of War 2.

 

[nathanddrews]

And this was kind of what I was getting at. Emulation existed in many forms, but usually not perfect with every game, hence innately a little squirrely. This wouldn't be considered acceptable (or, given the state of most console ports, maybe it would be?) nowadays. I'd say the newest batman game is an example of that. The hardware requirements to run it smoothly at release were horrendous compared to what the console required for the same software. If these xbox offerings are the same kind of pathetic afterthought that most console dev groups give toward their PC ports, it'll require 16GB of RAM and a gtx1070 to run Gears of War 2.

I get it, but for the sake of clarity, I'm going to make a list of emulation goals:

1. 100% perfectly accurate emulation of all games (original textures, scaling, frame rates)
2. All games playable in some way, but scaling, textures, and frame rates may be better or worse
3. Not all games are playable or even available, but those that are play like #1 or #2

I'm pretty sure that there are still many games in the Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft libraries that don't play at all through their emulation efforts, so we need to be realistic with expectations (as we speculate upon a single tweet LOL). Let's say that the 360 library becomes available through the Windows Store. I think we can assume that there will be minimum CPU and GPU requirements, probably some sort of benchmark utility to download and test your PC.

Likewise, will all publishers allow their games to be emulated on another platform? Why would EA allow you to play emulated Battlefield games when they can sell you a copy through Origin? There are going to be both technical and licensing issues to work around. If this does happen in any way, it's probably only going to be first-party MS games at first and it's not going to let you just use your existing 360 discs or transfer digital titles, you'll most likely have to buy them all over again through the Windows Store/Xbox app.

As you point out, not all games are created equal, so the requirements for each will probably vary wildly, but all they really need to do is hit a performance target based upon the platform. If a 360 game that played like crap in 2006 plays like crap on the PC in 2017, then you're getting what you paid for.

I will point out something really great about the current N64 emulation scene. Using Dolphin, you can emulate the Virtual Console, which then emulates NES, SNES, and N64. I haven't tried it yet, but it may end up being the most accurate N64 emulator available?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I get it, but for the sake of clarity, I'm going to make a list of emulation goals:

1. 100% perfectly accurate emulation of all games (original textures, scaling, frame rates)
2. All games playable in some way, but scaling, textures, and frame rates may be better or worse
3. Not all games are playable or even available, but those that are play like #1 or #2

I'm pretty sure that there are still many games in the Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft libraries that don't play at all through their emulation efforts, so we need to be realistic with expectations (as we speculate upon a single tweet LOL). Let's say that the 360 library becomes available through the Windows Store. I think we can assume that there will be minimum CPU and GPU requirements, probably some sort of benchmark utility to download and test your PC.

Likewise, will all publishers allow their games to be emulated on another platform? Why would EA allow you to play emulated Battlefield games when they can sell you a copy through Origin? There are going to be both technical and licensing issues to work around. If this does happen in any way, it's probably only going to be first-party MS games at first and it's not going to let you just use your existing 360 discs or transfer digital titles, you'll most likely have to buy them all over again through the Windows Store/Xbox app.

As you point out, not all games are created equal, so the requirements for each will probably vary wildly, but all they really need to do is hit a performance target based upon the platform. If a 360 game that played like crap in 2006 plays like crap on the PC in 2017, then you're getting what you paid for.

I will point out something really great about the current N64 emulation scene. Using Dolphin, you can emulate the Virtual Console, which then emulates NES, SNES, and N64. I haven't tried it yet, but it may end up being the most accurate N64 emulator available?

Thank you for the well thought out and considerate post, and for not attempting to treat me like a f'ing moron.

I agree completely, and titles should not be released into this hypothetical system unless they play properly (within reason, a 20% overhead for CPU/GPU/RAM is understandable), look as good as the originals (no broken textures, broken physics, whatever else), and cost should reflect age of title. I understand if that means that some are delayed or if the release catalog is limited, but this would be a superb way of getting some of those console-exclusives to the PC, and maybe other studios would follow suit. I'd love to finally play shadow of the colossus.

With any luck though, for xbox titles this won't be a problem due to the inherent similarities w/Windows itself.

 

[Ichinisan]

I'd love to finally play shadow of the colossus.

It's an amazing experience.

I just wish the PS3 "HD" version didn't alter the ending. There's no good reason for that.

 

[nathanddrews]

Thank you for the well thought out and considerate post, and for not attempting to treat me like a f'ing moron. *snip* With any luck though, for xbox titles this won't be a problem due to the inherent similarities w/Windows itself.

You're welcome - I don't want treat anyone like that, even people that are f'ing morons.

I would hope that any 1st party Microsoft effort would completely nail it if it happens, but they'll take whatever shortcuts they need to in order to deliver a product people want. Using the original Xbox game Halo: Combat Evolved as an example, when it was ported to PC, Gearbox had to modify the engine to accept new network code to play online multiplayer using the original maps and new maps, but there was no local or online co-op. Halo PC could run at the original 30fps, 60fps, or uncapped, but all physics/animations were locked to 30fps so it looked weird.

Then it was playable on Xbox 360 using raw emulation at the same resolution and fps, but 4-player split-screen performance was pretty bad compared to the original. Later, Microsoft released the Halo 10th Anniversary Edition on 360 which used the original engine (with real-time overlay for new graphics/audio) still at 30fps, but modified it to include online co-op, but did not include the original multiplayer for Xbox Live play (included Reach multiplayer).

Lastly, for the Master Chief Collection on Xbone, Microsoft used a modified version of Gearbox's PC version alongside a new revised overlay and included all the original multiplayer maps for Xbox Live play. The MCC runs at a locked 60fps and all physics/animations are also 60fps, making it technically the best representation of the game yet, but it's not really emulation at that point anymore. Likewise, they employed the same method for the MCC version of Halo 2.

Now we also have a PC version of Halo 3 ("Halo Online" F2P in Russia or via unofficial servers everywhere else) and there's a bastard version of Halo 2 released for Vista.

If Microsoft invested 1/10th the effort into 360 emulation on PC that they have committed to Halo alone, it would be incredible. #MEGA

I just with the PS3 "HD" version didn't alter the ending. There's no good reason for that.

What?!? Was it from a different region or something? Or did they just straight-up George Lucas it?

 

[Flapdrol1337]

If the xbone can emulate a 360 so can a pc.

 

[Ichinisan]

What?!? Was it from a different region or something? Or did they just straight-up George Lucas it?

It's a subtle change, but I think it's important that the

Spoiler

gender of the baby at the end should be obvious. It teases the possibility the baby is the cursed/horned boy from Ico.