Microsoft is committing suicide with Windows 8

[gmaster456]

I don't get the hating regarding Windows 8 :/ It's different, yes, but once you get past the initial "wtf?" it works really well. The Metro Start Screen is miles superior the old Start Menu and with the Superbar, why would you need a traditional start menu?

Metro interface is sometimes awkward, but on a PC, you don't need to use it. You still have full access to the Desktop and all the settings you could find in Windows 7.

What's the issue here? I don't get it.

People like to bitch and moan to a bunch of strangers on a forum without spending more than 3 hours using the thing.

 

[pelov]

People like to bitch and moan to a bunch of strangers on a forum without spending more than 3 hours using the thing.

Try two months.

 

[PingviN]

Every time you hit the windows key or want to launch an application via the old start menu method it takes you to Metro. You answered your own question.

Still don't see the problem. I got my applications grouped up on the Start Screen, if I need a more rarely used item, I search for it using the Windows Key + Typing method. I got my most used Desktops apps pinned to Taskbar. And then there is the place-shortcut-on-desktop thingy.

There's a lot wrong with it. Let's make a list:

- Metro scrolls sideways. Good for a tablet meant to be held sideways (Surface is 16x9, btw) but stupid on a large screen where you can fit a larger number of applications on the screen. You're also greeted with the "swipe to enter" when you first boot up. Encouraging.

- good luck changing the sizes of those tiles. They're big and blocky and there's no point to that on a desktop. It's not an upgrade or even a sidegrade but a very obvious downgrade from the start menu. It takes longer to find an application than it would with a start menu, offers less as far as options goes, and it takes up the entire screen. What are the upsides again?

- Ribbon style menus are horrible. It's big and blocky and makes the important stuff, like if you were reading a word document, smaller.

- Multi-tasking in Metro is still in the beta stage and no better than Android. Rather ridiculous considering you're talking desktop usage here...

- You can't "close" Metro apps easily, you simply put them in a sleep-but-still-open state. Also, Metro apps are closed by swiping or dragging it to the bottom of the screen. Apparently a small X to click and actually close doesn't suffice. (this is meant for tablets/phones so the apps open quicker due to the limited resources/computational power but if you're on a desktop with an SSD you don't gain any benefit from this at all outside of a whole lot of alt+ctrl+delete. It's actually worse due to it taking up more resources and becomes an issue if you need to restart the application)

- Mouse and keyboard support in Metro is still poor and apps have issues with M+KB support.

- You get thrown back and forth between Metro and desktop depending on what you're doing/trying to do. Read this review. If you want to have both a Metro and desktop app open at once then you're essentially switching between two operating systems.

- You still can't resize windows in Metro to the point where you can in the desktop. Setting windows side by side on a workspace and adjusting the sizes to your liking doesn't work in Metro. If you've got a Metro and a desktop app open then you're never going to see them on the same workspace. Have fun toggling.

- Metro apps behave differently and have different options than their desktop counterparts. IE for instance, is different in Metro and the desktop and has different options. For some of the more complicated ones you've got to do it in the desktop and if you want to switch to Metro, or from Metro > desktop, you have to start a new session. Talk about bolting two operating systems together. When you can't get your own software to work the same way in Metro and the desktop then what hope is there for anyone else...

- Everything is big and blocky. If you value your screen real estate then you might as well start planning to make your way to Apple and Linux.

- And the biggest issue of all: It was never meant for you, the desktop user, in the first place. If you haven't gotten that hint then I don't know what to tell you.

Wow that's a long list of issues I never got bothered by. Going between Metro and Desktop is awkward, yes, but it's not breaking my Windows experience. I use Metro on my laptop because I don't like running Desktop on a 768 resolution. It works well. On my workstation, I don't do much in Metro, I stick with the Desktop. That works well too. Ribbon menus can be hidden and I don't know about you, but I use hotkeys for pretty much all work in the Explorer. Ribbons help those who don't use hotkeys. If you need to find an application, press Windows key and start searching. Going into the Start Menu and looking for the app I want takes longer than just searching for it. I didn't even know people still used the folders in the Start Menu for finding stuff, lol. We've had rapid search by pressing Windows key + typing since Vista. People still don't use it?

I just think that people need to learn to adapt - I'm confident that some of the best software developers know what they're doing.

Also, you can easily close apps in Metro. It's called Alt + F4. It's a hotkey. Learn to use them.

 

[pelov]

Wow that's a long list of issues I never got bothered by. Going between Metro and Desktop is awkward, yes, but it's not breaking my Windows experience. I use Metro on my laptop because I don't like running Desktop on a 768 resolution. It works well. On my workstation, I don't do much in Metro, I stick with the Desktop. That works well too. Ribbon menus can be hidden and I don't know about you, but I use hotkeys for pretty much all work in the Explorer. Ribbons help those who don't use hotkeys. If you need to find an application, press Windows key and start searching. Going into the Start Menu and looking for the app I want takes longer than just searching for it. I didn't even know people still used the folders in the Start Menu for finding stuff, lol. We've had rapid search by pressing Windows key + typing since Vista. People still don't use it?

I use search, it's called HUD and it's on Ubuntu. Windows search sucks and I shouldn't be forced into using it.

Also, you can easily close apps in Metro. It's called Alt + F4. It's a hotkey. Learn to use them.

Do you mean REALLY REALLY close or hibernate close? What was wrong with the little X? Too easy?

 

[PingviN]

I use search, it's called HUD and it's on Ubuntu. Windows search sucks and I shouldn't be forced into using it.

You are not forced to use it. You can still navigate to your application using the mouse. It's just faster to use the search. As it is on Windows 7. And Vista- And it doesn't suck, it's definitely good enough to find the app you want.

Do you mean REALLY REALLY close or hibernate close? What was wrong with the little X? Too easy?

ALT + F4 really closes the app. Dragging from the top to the bottom also closes the app. Dunno about the X, for that you probably need to ask Microsoft. I'm guessing it's because Metro apps don't need to be closed as they get suspended and Windows can free up RAM as needed. Also for a touch interface, you don't really want a kill-button unless you really need one. That is why it's drag to close and not click to close. Im guessing ofc.

 

[pelov]

You are not forced to use it. You can still navigate to your application using the mouse. It's just faster to use the search. As it is on Windows 7. And Vista- And it doesn't suck, it's definitely good enough to find the app you want.

Search has always been faster on win than using the start menu, but it isn't as thorough and doesn't allow for customizing like it does on Linux. For example, you can't use search for application settings or control panel but only files and applications. This notion that search fixes the Metro problem is silly as it only addresses launching of applications and it isn't necessarily faster than a pinned app or an icon on the desktop. The point isn't that you have the option of search but that the start menu is better than the Metro start menu... and it is.

ALT + F4 really closes the app. Dragging from the top to the bottom also closes the app. Dunno about the X, for that you probably need to ask Microsoft. I'm guessing it's because Metro apps don't need to be closed as they get suspended and Windows can free up RAM as needed. Also for a touch interface, you don't really want a kill-button unless you really need one. That is why it's drag to close and not click to close. Im guessing ofc.

That's a good guess. The suspended applications are due to Metro being a tablet/phone OS and keeping the applications in memory allows for faster resume rather than an actual close and launch. It still has a force close option but it's hidden (drag or click doesn't force close). Keeping an app stored in memory on the desktop isn't required, though, as the computational power (and SSDs) make that a non-issue (unless you're launching a huge app with a ton of resources, in which case keeping that on memory wouldn't help anyway).

 

[PingviN]

Search has always been faster on win, but it isn't as thorough and doesn't allow for customizing like it does on Linux. For example, you can't use search for application settings or control panel but only files and applications. This notion that search fixes the Metro problem is silly as it only addresses launching of applications and it isn't necessarily faster than a pinned app or an icon on the desktop. The point isn't that you have the option of search but that the start menu is better than the Metro start menu... and it is.

Search in Windows 8 can search for Applications, Files and Settings. You can find individual Control Panel items. I don't agree with the Start Menu being better. The Start Screen is flat, meaning that I don't have to navigate the tree to get to where I want to be. It's faster and easier for people less computer-savvy.

That's a good guess. The suspended applications are due to Metro being a tablet/phone OS and keeping the applications in memory allows for faster resume rather than an actual close and launch. It still has a force close option but it's hidden (drag or click doesn't force close). Keeping an app stored in memory on the desktop isn't required, though, as the computational power (and SSDs) make that a non-issue (unless you're launching a huge app with a ton of resources, in which case keeping that on memory wouldn't help anyway).

Drag and drop does kill the process though. It's not in the Background processes, it's not in the Windows processes. It's gone.

 

[Blazer7]

Search in Windows 8 can search for Applications, Files and Settings. You can find individual Control Panel items. I don't agree with the Start Menu being better.......

Everyone I know that doesn't like 8 is because of metro. You may have no problem with it or even like it but that's hardly the case for many out there. Metro is probably great for tablets but it's inadequate for heavy multitasking and that's something that pros and power users can't overlook.

 

[PingviN]

Everyone I know that doesn't like 8 is because of metro. You may have no problem with it or even like it but that's hardly the case for many out there. Metro is probably great for tablets but it's inadequate for heavy multitasking and that's something that pros and power users can't overlook.

We still have the full Desktop available :|

 

[Blazer7]

M$ is ripping legacy code fast so users won't be able to boot directly to the desktop or use some 3rd party app to bring the start menu back so please define what you mean by "full" desktop.

 

[happysmiles]

my only annoyance is the dumb downed settings in metro

 

[PingviN]

M$ is ripping legacy code fast so users won't be able to boot directly to the desktop or use some 3rd party app to bring the start menu back so please define what you mean by "full" desktop.

Compared to W7, what do you think is missing from the Desktop environment?

 

[GoStumpy]

I don't have a touchscreen capable computer, so I'm going to stick with Windows 7.

What's the problem again? :whiste:

 

[Blazer7]

Compared to W7, what do you think is missing from the Desktop environment?

The start menu maybe?

The absence of it is a PITA especially when you have a lot of programs/utilities installed. A tree structure always helps. Don't expect everyone to hit search and remember every program/file name. Not when you have a ton of them or when you have to work with an app that you do not use too often.

No matter how you cut it metro is a tablet UI forced upon desktop users. The “full” desktop is treated as a metro app and you have to access it through metro and every single time you hit the start key it's back to metro again.

Bring back the start menu and the ability to boot directly to desktop even as options and 8 will get the acceptance it lacks now. However we already know that this is something easy for M$ to do but it ain't gonna happen.

 

[WraithETC]

I think Microsoft should gimp office and gaming compatibility for windows 7 when 8 is released and disable desktop mode altogether.

Also eliminate mouse wheel scrolling in 8.

 

[PingviN]

The start menu maybe?

The absence of it is a PITA especially when you have a lot of programs/utilities installed. A tree structure always helps. Don't expect everyone to hit search and remember every program/file name. Not when you have a ton of them or when you have to work with an app that you do not use too often.

Start Screen = new Start Menu. Difference is Start Screen is flat, Start Menu is a tree. You still have access to the "All Applications" list.

A tree structure doesn't always help. It doesn't help inexperienced users. This is one of the reasons iPhone was so well received - it's easy to use. The menus are flat. It might look less clean than a tree structure, but it's easy to use.

No matter how you cut it metro is a tablet UI forced upon desktop users. The “full” desktop is treated as a metro app and you have to access it through metro and every single time you hit the start key it's back to metro again.

Bring back the start menu and the ability to boot directly to desktop even as options and 8 will get the acceptance it lacks now. However we already know that this is something easy for M$ to do but it ain't gonna happen.

Again, the Start Screen does the same job the Start Menu used to do. You might not like the look of the Start Screen, but it has the same functionality as the Start Menu, and more.

 

[beginner99]

If you need to find an application, press Windows key and start searching.

Which implies you know the exact spelling of the application and possibly worse the application is named differently in you language (not all people live in US an speak english...) than the executable.

 

[PingviN]

Which implies you know the exact spelling of the application and possibly worse the application is named differently in you language (not all people live in US an speak english...) than the executable.

You still have the option to show all applications and select from that list if you don't know what the app is called. Difference is that while in previous version of Windows, you had a tree structure whereas in W8 you got a flat structure.

Yes, I know not everyone live in the US, I live in Sweden, we speak Swedish here.

 

[tommo123]

Start Screen = new Start Menu. Difference is Start Screen is flat, Start Menu is a tree. You still have access to the "All Applications" list.

A tree structure doesn't always help. It doesn't help inexperienced users. This is one of the reasons iPhone was so well received - it's easy to use. The menus are flat. It might look less clean than a tree structure, but it's easy to use.



Again, the Start Screen does the same job the Start Menu used to do. You might not like the look of the Start Screen, but it has the same functionality as the Start Menu, and more.

same functionality? the old start menu lets me watch a video while looking in the start menu. unless i'm missing something the new one doesn't.

oh, and the argument above re easy to use is bogus. i don't care if it helps inexperienced users as it would degrade my desktop experience. the people saying it's leveraging their desktop position to force people to use metro are right. it's a sledgehammer approach to try and get people to buy their phones and tablets. it's sad that MS can't do it on the devices own merits

 

[HeXen]

wait, wait. i have a 2 solutions to all the problems here. All one has to do is pick one.

1. Stick with W7
2. Use Linux and then wine or VM if MS specific apps are needed.

Problem solved. **pats self on back** See how simple? all this bickering and anger over whats literally nothing. Life could be much worse.

 

[Blazer7]

Start Screen = new Start Menu. Difference is Start Screen is flat, Start Menu is a tree. You still have access to the "All Applications" list.

So being forced out of one UI to search things in another is acceptable to you right?

A tree structure doesn't always help. It doesn't help inexperienced users.

A tree structure doesn't always help? You mean that an inexperienced user won't be able to find the program he/she is looking for in the start menu? But he/she will find it in metro right?

This is one of the reasons iPhone was so well received - it's easy to use. The menus are flat. It might look less clean than a tree structure, but it's easy to use.

This is the reason why 8 is good for phones and tablets but we are talking about the PC here in case you haven't noticed.

Again, the Start Screen does the same job the Start Menu used to do. You might not like the look of the Start Screen, but it has the same functionality as the Start Menu, and more.

Yes, being thrown to another UI is exactly the same functionality.

 

[gmaster456]

So being forced out of one UI to search things in another is acceptable to you right?

A tree structure doesn't always help? You mean that an inexperienced user won't be able to find the program he/she is looking for in the start menu? But he/she will find it in metro right?

This is the reason why 8 is good for phones and tablets but we are talking about the PC here in case you haven't noticed.

Yes, being thrown to another UI is exactly the same functionality.

All of the arguments you are trying to make are silly. What's acceptable for one person won't always be acceptable for somebody else.

Yes, it is possible, that one could find it easier to find applications using the metro start screen vs the traditional start menu. Especially if the application isn't on the recently used list.

Yes, going to a different UI can still offer the same functionality. It does the same stuff, it just looks different.

 

[Blazer7]

All of the arguments you are trying to make are silly.

What's with the personal here?

What's acceptable for one person won't always be acceptable for somebody else.

I agree so what's with the silly comment.

Yes, it is possible, that one could find it easier to find applications using the metro start screen vs the traditional start menu. Especially if the application isn't on the recently used list.

Yes, going to a different UI can still offer the same functionality. It does the same stuff, it just looks different.

It's not that it looks different, it's all about the way it works. You shouldn't have to constantly have to switch between UIs in order to do your job.

*** edit ***

What part of my reply to PingviN is wrong?

 

[HeXen]

Yes, going to a different UI can still offer the same functionality. It does the same stuff, it just takes longer.

i fixed that error for you. think nothing of it

 

[hhhd1]

I don't get the hating regarding Windows 8 :/ It's different, yes, but once you get past the initial "wtf?" ....

I LOL'ed

you can easily close apps in Metro. It's called Alt + F4. It's a hotkey. Learn to use them.

it is not "easily" , its was easier before.

Keyboard shortcuts/hotkeys are not always nice, It is easier to be able to do everything using a mouse pointer, being forced to either drag or click alt+f4 is a downgrade for desktop

since i knew windows, it has always been about making everything around the mouse, and not doing the basic stuff like closing an application using keyboard shortcuts or doing special movement gestures.