Microsoft going open source??

[Descartes]

Say what you will, but I believe this is a step in the right direction. How cool is this? I always wondered how they implemented some key pieces of the BCL in C#, now I know!

It's going to be a busy day for me.

 

[Sestar]

Yeah, but first its the ECMA implementation of C#(aka it lacks key propreitary useful microsoft namespaces). So *shrugs* I am sorry but .NET is made for windows not anything else.

 

[Descartes]

There are of course some key namespaces that are only useful on Windows platforms, thus there's no need to include them on a FreeBSD build! I built the source tree w/o a problem on my Win2k box, and will do so on my FreeBSD box later. Reading the mailing lists, it seems many have built the source tree on FreeBSD and have been able to compile their source w/o issue.

Keep in mind that this is also considered beta code...

Either way, it's fun to look through the code, be able to modify the source, rebuild, and have your modifications interop with the .NET release.

 

[yakko]

I think open source is overrated.

 

[pulse8]

<< I think open source is overrated. >>

I can't believe it, but I actually agree with you.

 

[Descartes]

How is it overrated? Microsoft has provided an amazing wealth of code for which we can research, modify, and use. As a developer, this is an excellent resource.

 

[nd]

<< I think open source is overrated. >>

I think that you're probably not a software developer.

 

[Ameesh]

<<

<< I think open source is overrated. >>

I think that you're probably not a software developer. >>



i think its a ridicoulous waste of time that has no practical business application in the long run and i am a software developer





<< These standards together represent a substantial subset of what is available in the Microsoft .NET Framework. >>



Its a very very small subset, but it lets us get academia invovled, and that is the extent of it

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<<

<< I think open source is overrated. >>

I think that you're probably not a software developer. >>



i think its a ridicoulous waste of time that has no practical business application in the long run and i am a software developer >>



Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share...

and I guess that's why Linux is the second most popular server-OS in the world, and it's gaining market-share each day.

I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source.

You sir, are full of BS.

 

[wfbberzerker]

now now, no need to start a flame war.... open-source has both its merits and downfalls.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Very few people are smart enough to be able to modify stuff like that. Like all those people who depend on AOL (not dissing anybody who has AOL here), but the people who NEED it. I myself probably couldn't do it.

 

[Hyperblaze]

This open source by Microsoft is just another marketing ploy.

They see how much success Linux is having among graduates and they want a share of the pie too (the programmers).


Microsoft tries to copy everyone who they think is having a success. This just happens to be their latest victim.

 

[Ameesh]

<<

<<

<<

<< I think open source is overrated. >>

I think that you're probably not a software developer. >>



i think its a ridicoulous waste of time that has no practical business application in the long run and i am a software developer >>



Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share...

Netscape had 90% of the market when IE came on the seen look at the statistics now Give it some time

and I guess that's why Linux is the second most popular server-OS in the world, and it's gaining market-share each day.

That is not saying much at all, with 95% of the worlds computers running windows, and Linux having no new innovations of its own, just hacks of developers adding stolen features from other software im not too worried

I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source.

ROFL, do you understand why they are doing this?! Do you have any idea how much IBM Global Service costs? you know the ones from the commercials.. They support a free OS but then when you're not looking they rape you with a dong the size of an elephant with the cost of their middleware and their so called services.

You sir, are full of BS. >>



when you learn a little more about business, TCO, as well as software come back and talk to me little boy

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share... >>



Netscape had 90% of the market when IE came on the seen look at the statistics now Give it some time >>



Yeah, when you bundle your browser to your product that has a monopoly, and when you deny OEM's from shipping competing product, it's no wonder IE quicly gained market-share. Wasn't MS just found quilty of abusing it's monopoly? Sorry, you lose this argument.



<<

<< and I guess that's why Linux is the second most popular server-OS in the world, and it's gaining market-share each day. >>



That is not saying much at all, with 95% of the worlds computers running windows, and Linux having no new innovations of its own, just hacks of developers adding stolen features from other software im not too worried >>



95% of desktops maybe (gained by using more or less illegal means), but not servers. And MS has innovations?? Don't make me laugh! MS steals so much from Apple and others that it isn't even funny anymore! Open-source developers steal from others? And MS doesn't do that?!?! Yeah, right.... Sorry, you lose again.



<<

<< I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source. >>



ROFL, do you understand why they are doing this?! Do you have any idea how much IBM Global Service costs? you know the ones from the commercials.. They support a free OS but then when you're not looking they rape you with a dong the size of an elephant with the cost of their middleware and their so called services. >>



You said that there is no money to be made from open-source. IBM has proven your wrong. Also, sales of mainframes is rising for the first time in years, thanks to Linux.

As for IBM "raping" their customers... Alot of people have complained because MS has drastically increased (about 30-100% if I remember correctly) the prices of their licenses. And if they don't feel like paying up, MS threatens with BSA-audits! Talk about raping your customers! Sorry, you lose. Again!



<< when you learn a little more about business, TCO, as well as software come back and talk to me little boy >>



TCO? TCO of Linux is lower than TCO of Windows. More reliable, more robust, less security-holes, less reboots. Only times when Windows "wins" in TCO-comparisons is when using some dubious Gartner "calculations" that are designed from the start to show how "superior" MS-software is.

Well, I expected something like this from a Microsoft-drone....

 

[gogeeta13]

<<

<<

<< Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share... >>



Netscape had 90% of the market when IE came on the seen look at the statistics now Give it some time >>



Yeah, when you bundle your browser to your product that has a monopoly, and when you deny OEM's from shipping competing product, it's no wonder IE quicly gained market-share. Wasn't MS just found quilty of abusing it's monopoly? Sorry, you lose this argument.



<<

<< and I guess that's why Linux is the second most popular server-OS in the world, and it's gaining market-share each day. >>



That is not saying much at all, with 95% of the worlds computers running windows, and Linux having no new innovations of its own, just hacks of developers adding stolen features from other software im not too worried >>



95% of desktops maybe (gained by using more or less illegal means), but not servers. And MS has innovations?? Don't make me laugh! MS steals so much from Apple and others that it isn't even funny anymore! Open-source developers steal from others? And MS doesn't do that?!?! Yeah, right.... Sorry, you lose again.



<<

<< I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source. >>



ROFL, do you understand why they are doing this?! Do you have any idea how much IBM Global Service costs? you know the ones from the commercials.. They support a free OS but then when you're not looking they rape you with a dong the size of an elephant with the cost of their middleware and their so called services. >>



You said that there is no money to be made from open-source. IBM has proven your wrong. Also, sales of mainframes is rising for the first time in years, thanks to Linux.

As for IBM "raping" their customers... Alot of people have complained because MS has drastically increased (about 30-100% if I remember correctly) the prices of their licenses. And if they don't feel like paying up, MS threatens with BSA-audits! Talk about raping your customers! Sorry, you lose. Again!



<< when you learn a little more about business, TCO, as well as software come back and talk to me little boy >>



TCO? TCO of Linux is lower than TCO of Windows. More reliable, more robust, less security-holes, less reboots. Only times when Windows "wins" in TCO-comparisons is when using some dubious Gartner "calculations" that are designed from the start to show how "superior" MS-software is.

Well, I expected something like this from a Microsoft-drone.... >>



oh stfu about netscape, it sucks and you know it. If it was so good, we would all be using it, but it sucks, IE is better, plain and simple. And for my purposes, windows is better then any other OS. If I wanted to run a server, i may but some unix flavor on it, but I game and surf the web, and IE and windows are the best for that

 

[Descartes]

I didn't want to turn this into a flame war. I figured some would rebuke MS and say it was nothing but a marketing ploy. The point I'm making is, who cares! It's a great codebase for those interested in how something of this nature is implemented.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< oh stfu about netscape, it sucks and you know it. If it was so good, we would all be using it, but it sucks, IE is better, plain and simple. And for my purposes, windows is better then any other OS. If I wanted to run a server, i may but some unix flavor on it, but I game and surf the web, and IE and windows are the best for that >>



Then why not let markets decide that? I mean, Netscape vs. IE was never a fair fight. MS bundled their browser to Windows, saturating 90+% of the market. In the same time they denied OEM's the right to distribute Netscape. If IE was superior, then it would have gained market-share based on it's technical merits alone. But MS made sure that competition was biased towards MS from the start. And MS was found to be quilty of abusing it's monopoly, so the fact is that MS broke the law in it's attempts to kill competition. It has done so over and over again.

For gaming, Windows is better right now. I use W2K for gaming myself.

 

[yakko]

<< Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share... >>

Apache has it now because it is better but buying decisions are being made by the people who don't use it but being familiar with Windows and how easy they think it is to use they will buy IIS because they think it will be just as easy thereby less man hours will be needed to run it which will save the company money and increase their bonus. IIs will end up with a larger market share.




<< I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source. >>

IBM invested a lot in a DOS based os in the 80s mainly written by Bill Gates who was telling them they needed a GUI to keep up but they didn't listen and when it flopped and they tried to catch up with OS/2 Warp but it was too late.

 

[Ameesh]

<<

<<

<< Yeah, that's why the open-source Apache web-server has about 60% market-share, whereas Microsofts wonderful closed-source IIS has about 25% market-share... >>



Netscape had 90% of the market when IE came on the seen look at the statistics now Give it some time >>



Yeah, when you bundle your browser to your product that has a monopoly, and when you deny OEM's from shipping competing product, it's no wonder IE quicly gained market-share. Wasn't MS just found quilty of abusing it's monopoly? Sorry, you lose this argument.

if you think netscape lost market share because of ms's "supposed abuse" of a monopoly youre a bigger fool then i thought, 90% of the people on this board will tell you netscape sucks donkey balls, after 3.0 it went down hill. and if you think that netscape should have been allowed to distruibite itself on windows that is one of the most anti-captalistic, anti-american statements i can think of, its like tell people that if they download real player, quicktime has to come with it, or if the download winamp, wmp has to come with it.



<<

<< and I guess that's why Linux is the second most popular server-OS in the world, and it's gaining market-share each day. >>



That is not saying much at all, with 95% of the worlds computers running windows, and Linux having no new innovations of its own, just hacks of developers adding stolen features from other software im not too worried >>



95% of desktops maybe (gained by using more or less illegal means), but not servers. And MS has innovations?? Don't make me laugh! MS steals so much from Apple and others that it isn't even funny anymore! Open-source developers steal from others? And MS doesn't do that?!?! Yeah, right.... Sorry, you lose again.

Show me what features has microsoft stolen from any platform in the last 3 years, if you want to se what the linux community has taken look at KDE or GNOME, exact window designs have been lifted right out of the new interfaces ms has developed, Linux has nothing like Active Directory, NO distributed File System, no built in VPN Server, no built in support for encrypted file systems, the software for linux is even worse, mySql doesnt even properly support stored procedures and triggers yet all these junkies wont stop raving about it

and here are some facts from an apache favorible group netcraft:

1) Windows runs 25 percent of Web sites worldwide; Sun runs 19 percent. (Source: Netcraft 12/99)
2) Forty-five percent of secure Web sites run on Windows; Sun runs 11 percent. (Source: Netcraft 12/99)
3) Fifty two of the top 100 Internet shopping sites run on Windows. (Source: Media Metrix; Netcraft)
4) Six of the top 10 shopping sites run Windows and Microsoft SQL Server?. (Source: PC Data 12/99)
5) Fifty-seven percent of top business-to-business marketplaces run on Windows. (Source: Goldman Sachs; Netcraft)
Some of the biggest e-businesses and dot coms run on Windows:
Dell, the largest e-business on the Internet, runs on Windows.
Other major sites include Barnes & Noble, InfoSpace, Data Return, Buy.com, Monster.com, Reel.com, Bigcharts.com, Hotbot.com, Nordstrom's, Realtor.com, Intel, eHome, MarthaStewart.com, Cooking.com, and Compaq,to name a few.







<<

<< I guess that's why IBM is investing 1 billion dollars to Linux, and they have already earned alot more than 1 billion from open source. >>



ROFL, do you understand why they are doing this?! Do you have any idea how much IBM Global Service costs? you know the ones from the commercials.. They support a free OS but then when you're not looking they rape you with a dong the size of an elephant with the cost of their middleware and their so called services. >>



You said that there is no money to be made from open-source. IBM has proven your wrong. Also, sales of mainframes is rising for the first time in years, thanks to Linux.

Open Source isnt making the money, the sale of their services to make open source an actual viable solution for a customer is, Why would you need to hire such expensive consultants to make your servers do what they can do out of the box like windows servers.

As for IBM "raping" their customers... Alot of people have complained because MS has drastically increased (about 30-100% if I remember correctly) the prices of their licenses. And if they don't feel like paying up, MS threatens with BSA-audits! Talk about raping your customers! Sorry, you lose. Again!

The cost of MS Liscenses if the customer consistently upgrades, in fact they get a huge discount if they do, if the dont want to upgrade within 6-9 months they get charged normal price, as for BSA-Audits, all they do is check if you have the correct number of licenses, if your not a thief you have absolutely nothing to worry about.



<< when you learn a little more about business, TCO, as well as software come back and talk to me little boy >>



TCO? TCO of Linux is lower than TCO of Windows. More reliable, more robust, less security-holes, less reboots. Only times when Windows "wins" in TCO-comparisons is when using some dubious Gartner "calculations" that are designed from the start to show how "superior" MS-software is.

do a google search of tco windows servers you'll find doezens of reprots from groups other then gartner that mathimatically show that windows has a much better TCO then and unix or linux platform

here is one example:

Overall, Windows 2000-based server enterprises showed a 46% cost advantage over Unix/RISC environments for a three-year ownership period. Aberdeen research indicates that server acquisition and administration cost are two key areas where lower costs were realized for Windows 2000 compared to Unix/RISC.

 

[Ameesh]

<< I didn't want to turn this into a flame war. I figured some would rebuke MS and say it was nothing but a marketing ploy. The point I'm making is, who cares! It's a great codebase for those interested in how something of this nature is implemented. >>



What do you think about the code? C# is pretty nice huh i really like it.

 

[Ameesh]

Also the simple fact about apache is all the porn sites on the internet use it so their statistics get inflated easily.

 

[coder1]

Ameesh, very good point. I for one am always looking for a the best product. I can't deny that Microsoft has some very solid products. I have tried many, and many of the times I come back to MS. I know so many people who are so anti MS, that it blinds them when looking at MS's products. Too many of these people treat it like a religion.

 

[Descartes]

<< What do you think about the code? C# is pretty nice huh i really like it. >>



The code is lucid enough to read easily, and I love C#. The build process was clean, and the test harnesses ran w/o issue. I've always had questions that no books/doc could answer, so looking at the code should resolve that.

 

[rahvin]

Ameesh,

You should probably add "I do not speak for Microsoft" to your signature like pm did (regarding his employment with intel). For those that aren't aware Ameesh works for MS.

 

[Descartes]

<< Too many of these people treat it like a religion. >>



That's the key issue there, religion. For whatever reason, developers have a tendency to be extremely dogmatic in regards to their platform/language of choice. Subjectivity goes out the window in favor of platform/language religiosity. It's that way with any interest group, really. If you're into cars, and you buy an automatic Porsche, you'll likely be flamed just as much as if you post an article on the merits of Visual Basic on comp.lang.c++.

Microsoft always has motives to perpetuate their business, but it's obvious to me that they really want the merits of .NET to manifest themselves by way of these projects that get developers, from around the world, involved. Just when I started having fun with Terrarium, they release this.

My work requires that I build solutions for both *nix and Windows platforms, but on my own, I have more fun with .NET.

[edit]I should add, that I have the potential to have a lot of fun on FreeBSD as well now that I have a reference implementation of the CLI! [/edit]