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[Microsoft] Court you say?! Pfffff

RavenSEAL

Diamond Member
Now Microsoft Wants to Stop You Taking Them to Court

http://kotaku.com/5865797/now-microsoft-wants-to-stop-you-taking-them-to-court

It's one of 2011's more troubling, if less sexy developments: that of major publishers and platform holders finding ways to stop customers taking them to court if something goes wrong with their product or service.

Sony was the first company to introduce a "no sue" clause as part of its terms of service in September, and was swiftly followed by Electronic Arts. Now Microsoft and its Xbox 360 are in on the act.
As part of the new dashboard update rolling out worldwide today, the console comes with a new terms of service agreement that users must agree to. Most of it is standard stuff, until you get to section 18.1.4. Binding Arbitration. It reads as follows:

IF YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU AND MICROSOFT AGREE THAT IF YOU AND MICROSOFT DO NOT RESOLVE ANY DISPUTE BY INFORMAL NEGOTIATION UNDER SECTION 18.1.2 ABOVE, ANY EFFORT TO RESOLVE THE DISPUTE WILL BE CONDUCTED EXCLUSIVELY BY BINDING ARBITRATION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ARBITRATION PROCEDURES IN SECTION 18.1.7 BELOW. YOU UNDERSTAND AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BY AGREEING TO BINDING ARBITRATION, YOU ARE GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO LITIGATE (OR PARTICIPATE IN AS A PARTY OR CLASS MEMBER) ALL DISPUTES IN COURT BEFORE A JUDGE OR JURY. INSTEAD, YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT ALL DISPUTES WILL BE RESOLVED BEFORE A NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR, WHOSE AWARD (DECISION) WILL BE BINDING AND FINAL, EXCEPT FOR A LIMITED RIGHT OF APPEAL UNDER THE FEDERAL ARBITRATION ACT. ANY COURT WITH JURISDICTION OVER THE PARTIES MAY ENFORCE THE ARBITRATOR'S AWARD.

THE ONLY DISPUTES NOT COVERED BY THE AGREEMENT IN SECTION 18.1 TO NEGOTIATE INFORMALLY AND ARBITRATE ARE DISPUTES ENFORCING, PROTECTING, OR CONCERNING THE VALIDITY OF ANY OF YOUR OR MICROSOFT'S (OR ANY OF YOUR OR MICROSOFT'S LICENSORS') INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Shortly after, section 18.1.6 reads:

18.1.6. CLASS ACTION WAIVER. YOU AND MICROSOFT AGREE THAT ANY PROCEED*INGS TO RESOLVE OR LITIGATE ANY DISPUTE, WHETHER IN ARBITRATION, IN COURT, OR OTHERWISE, WILL BE CONDUCTED SOLELY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, AND THAT NEITHER YOU NOR MICROSOFT WILL SEEK TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE HEARD AS A CLASS ACTION, A REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, A COLLECTIVE ACTION, A PRIVATE ATTORNEY-GENERAL ACTION, OR IN ANY PROCEEDING IN WHICH YOU OR MICROSOFT ACTS OR PROPOSES TO ACT IN A REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY. YOU AND MICROSOFT FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WILL BE JOINED, CONSOLIDATED, OR COMBINED WITH ANOTHER ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT OF YOU, MICROSOFT, AND ALL PARTIES TO ANY SUCH ARBITRATION OR PROECCEDING.

What this means is that if something happens to Xbox Live or the Xbox 360 in general, you can't sue Microsoft. Nor can you join in a class action suit targeting Microsoft.

As we've explained previously, this sets a dangerous precedent, as these new terms have been drafted for exactly the same reason as Sony's, EA's and many other non-gaming companies, like insurance firms, have in recent times.

Unlike courts, whose outcomes are decided by juries (who can by sympathetic towards consumers battling multinational corporations), decisions made via private arbitration often find in favour of businesses, and even when siding with consumers offer relatively small payouts.

You normally can't appeal the findings of a private arbitration hearing, nor is there an independent or public means of reviewing an arbitrator's decisions. They are also designed to be conducted privately, out of the public eye.

It's a move designed, in essence, to steamroll your rights as a consumer. To ensure that even if Microsoft screws something up, or something terrible happens to the platform, any compensation or dispute will be handled on their terms, not those of a court and jury.

Note that this move only affects residents of the United States. Those outside the US can carry on as usual. For Americans who want to do something about the new terms, there is a way out. So long as you contact Microsoft within thirty days of singing the new terms of service agreement, you can be exempt from this new clause. You'll need to contact them in writing, by mailing:

Microsoft Corporation, ATTN: LCA ARBITRATION, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399

...
 
The arbitration clause has been in licences of all sorts for a long time now. What's new is the attempt to prevent class action suits. My guess is that the later has no chance of standing up court because otherwise you soon won't be able to buy a stick of gum without giving up your class action rights.
 
Given the fact that it's RavenSEAL posting this, I figured I'd point out the following text in the quote, since the "Microsoft" in the title implies it's just them:

Sony was the first company to introduce a "no sue" clause as part of its terms of service in September, and was swiftly followed by Electronic Arts. Now Microsoft and its Xbox 360 are in on the act.
 
Given the fact that it's RavenSEAL posting this, I figured I'd point out the following text in the quote, since the "Microsoft" in the title implies it's just them:

Yep, Sony has been doing this for a couple years now. I'm certain RavenSEAL will respond here with something like "see how Microsoft has to copy Sony" or something equally asinine. :biggrin:
 
yea i remember when sony made this change to their TOS a while back, there is a thread on here about it actually.
 
It's fair to have this be a MS-bashing thread since people already bashed Sony for doing it earlier 🙂

Sony added theirs earlier this year in response to the PSN hack, but Sony, MS and Nintendo all had weaseling in their TOS before that, such as limiting any damages to the amount that you paid them.
 
Given the fact that it's RavenSEAL posting this, I figured I'd point out the following text in the quote, since the "Microsoft" in the title implies it's just them:

Good try, but I've gotten over console gaming about a year ago. PS3 is sitting in the garage.
 
Good try, but I've gotten over console gaming about a year ago. PS3 is sitting in the garage.

yet here you are, a year later, on the console forums, bashing MS.

yea ... it sure sounds like "you've gotten over console gaming" and i really don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
 
YOU AND MICROSOFT AGREE THAT ANY PROCEED­INGS TO RESOLVE OR LITIGATE ANY DISPUTE, WHETHER IN ARBITRATION, IN COURT, OR OTHERWISE, WILL BE CONDUCTED SOLELY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, AND THAT NEITHER YOU NOR MICROSOFT WILL SEEK TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE HEARD AS A CLASS ACTION, A REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, A COLLECTIVE ACTION, A PRIVATE ATTORNEY-GENERAL ACTION, OR IN ANY PROCEEDING IN WHICH YOU OR MICROSOFT ACTS OR PROPOSES TO ACT IN A REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY. YOU AND MICROSOFT FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WILL BE JOINED, CONSOLIDATED, OR COMBINED WITH ANOTHER ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT OF YOU, MICROSOFT, AND ALL PARTIES TO ANY SUCH ARBITRATION OR PROECCEDING.

You can opt out of all this by sending physical mail to Microsoft, at the following address:

Microsoft Corporation, ATTN: LCA ARBITRATION, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399
 
You can opt out of all this by sending physical mail to Microsoft, at the following address:

Microsoft Corporation, ATTN: LCA ARBITRATION, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399

Hah, they copied that from Sony too. Sony innovated this evil first. TEAM SONY!
 
It's about time for a Legislator to intriduce a bill that bans contracts of adhesion from including provisions that waive right to trial by jury.
 
yet here you are, a year later, on the console forums, bashing MS.

yea ... it sure sounds like "you've gotten over console gaming" and i really don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

I found the article on Kotaku and thought I'd share it, if you don't like it, you're welcome to not post in this thread.

Ok? Thanks.
 
The thing is some states are fighting back against these so such a agreement will not uphold in court there.

I know Illinois is one of them that does:

Illinois, for example, has ruled that consumers must always be given the right to pursue legal action in a court of law, while Ohio and New Mexico are currently investigating the same matter.
 
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...no-lawsuits-xbox-360-tos-update-after-all.ars

Turns out you can't opt out of the waiver for trial. If you use Xbox Live you MUST accept the new TOS and EULA; the opt-out only affects future changes to those agreements and not the changes contained in the one you are actually agreeing to.

You can't opt out of the "no class-action" Xbox 360 TOS update after all
By Ben Kuchera | Published about an hour ago
We reported that Microsoft was taking away your right to sue the company in the latest Xbox 360 update by forcing gamers into neutral arbitration, while also blocking consumers from joining class-action lawsuits... unless they opted out of the clause by mailing a letter to Microsoft. It seems this isn't actually the case, as Microsoft has told Kotaku that you can't opt out: you need to give up these rights if you'd like to continue using your Xbox 360.

This is Microsoft's full statement on the matter:

Users must agree to the new clause to the Terms of Use in order to continue using Xbox LIVE. Changes to the Terms of Use are designed to ensure that our customers have an easy way to file a dispute without requiring formal legal action. They may now bring a dispute to our attention by filling out a simple Notice of Dispute form found at www.xbox.com/notice and mailing in documentation in support of their claim. We will then work to resolve the dispute to their satisfaction within 60 days. Any customer unsatisfied with the outcome of this informal process may easily initiate arbitration with the American Arbitration Association.

Customers may also choose to bring their claims in their local small claims court if they meet the normal jurisdictional requirements. For detailed information, please visit: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Legal/LiveTOU.

"The terminology in the ToS used to 'opt out' applies only to future changes made after this agreement," Kotaku reported. So you have to accept this agreement, and give up your right to class-action status and most legal action against Microsoft, but you can opt out of any future changes.
 
There is no 1-to-1 relationship between gamertags and consoles, couldn't you just create a new gamertag, decline the EULA, and join a class action lawsuit as this customer instead?

It's not like MSFT can actually identify you. I've never given them my credit card information or anything else they could actually identify me with based on my gamertag. Sure, they have a gmail address on file, but I could just as easily create a new gamertag with a new email address.

Granted, if the dispute between you and them involved something with your gamertag specifically then they would be able to show that you agreed to their EULA. But say there was a class action over the whole RRoD issue (who knows, there might be one) that demanded restitution for damages incurred by RRoD's there would be no way for them to track you down.
 
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I don't worry about stuff like this. The most their gonna stiff me for is a crappy game or something.
 
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...no-lawsuits-xbox-360-tos-update-after-all.ars

Turns out you can't opt out of the waiver for trial. If you use Xbox Live you MUST accept the new TOS and EULA; the opt-out only affects future changes to those agreements and not the changes contained in the one you are actually agreeing to.

The problem is if such a thing is illegal in the state you would still have the option to go to trial with them in that state as it appears some are able to do.
 
The problem is if such a thing is illegal in the state you would still have the option to go to trial with them in that state as it appears some are able to do.

but why would you want to. everyone is so sue happy its retarded. especially when it involves software and products that cost no more than a couple hundred.
If your xbox blew up and mangled your face, you wont have no trouble getting a settlement and even a notorized signed agreement can be thrown out by a judge if they see fit.
tired of babies crying cause they can't get online. sueing for such is gay. Viruses happen, networks shut down..why sue? Americans can be pathetic.
 
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