Microsoft Commie President: "Linux 'at end of life cycle"

[Nothinman]

You get what you pay for. Linux is free and thus has problems - more installation failures compared to windows along with poor driver management as well.

I just installed CentOS on a server and it wouldn't post because there was a PS2 mouse plugged in...I had to use a USB mouse. wtf is this.

That's bullshit. Linux is way less problematic than Windows. If you attack the installation expecting Windows-like things then you're setting yourself up for fail. And the problems with Linux almost never revolve around drivers, if anything drivers in Linux are much more stable and less problematic than Windows' drivers ever will be because of the developers involved.

IMO the only thing windows has going for it over Linux is AD and GPOs for desktop management and Samba is working on fixing that.

Your PS2 problem was most likely a hardware problem, POST has nothing to do with the OS at all.

 

[JD50]

You get what you pay for. Linux is free and thus has problems - more installation failures compared to windows along with poor driver management as well.

I just installed CentOS on a server and it wouldn't post because there was a PS2 mouse plugged in...I had to use a USB mouse. wtf is this.

That's the most over-used piece of FUD that I've seen with regards to the linux vs. windows debate. It's such an absurd statement, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[JD50]

You get what you pay for. Linux is free and thus has problems - more installation failures compared to windows along with poor driver management as well.

I just installed CentOS on a server and it wouldn't post because there was a PS2 mouse plugged in...I had to use a USB mouse. wtf is this.

Wait, I just realized that you said it wouldn't post and you blame that on the operating system?

 

[ShreddedWheat]

Crazy talk....I don't know much about linux but after an electricity prob with Vista and forgetting the install cds I had to install Ubuntu 10.10 on my mom's computer (she is computer illiterate) 1.5 hours later OS installed and myself and my mom were trained and all drivers, etc...loaded. I'm working on making the switch to Linux myself if only DX10+ equivalent was available. Windows is around for me only for the gaming!

 

[VinDSL]

That's bullshit[...]

Bwahahaha!

Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing... 😀

 

[VinDSL]

Windows is like buying a nice toolbox from Sears, where most of what you need is included[...]

Hrm...

I'm usually in lockstep with you, but I can't agree with this declaration!

Winders doesn't include jack shit. It's like an empty cardboard box.

No office software, no photo editor, no AV software, no nothing. :awe:

 

[lxskllr]

Hrm...

I'm usually in lockstep with you, but I can't agree with this declaration!

Winders doesn't include jack shit. It's like an empty cardboard box.

No office software, no photo editor, no AV software, no nothing. :awe:

I'm kind of mixmatching the packages, going between desktop, and server. That particular statement was in regards to the server software. Windows server has a nice default loadout, with a set of tools that are fairly easy to find, and handle the basic duties of a server well. Just like any toolbox, the tools will always be incomplete. Linux doesn't come with as much out of the box, and the tools are a little more elementary, but due to being more elementary, they give more power for controlling the server, and extending the functionality.

For desktop use, there's no contest. Linux(typical distro) comes with far more functionality. It lacks some support for consumer hardware, but that isn't as much an issue anymore. It's usually only the small niche items that don't have proper support.

 

[Nothinman]

I'm kind of mixmatching the packages, going between desktop, and server. That particular statement was in regards to the server software. Windows server has a nice default loadout, with a set of tools that are fairly easy to find, and handle the basic duties of a server well. Just like any toolbox, the tools will always be incomplete. Linux doesn't come with as much out of the box, and the tools are a little more elementary, but due to being more elementary, they give more power for controlling the server, and extending the functionality.

For desktop use, there's no contest. Linux(typical distro) comes with far more functionality. It lacks some support for consumer hardware, but that isn't as much an issue anymore. It's usually only the small niche items that don't have proper support.

The same is true for servers. Although there's no AD kerberos/LDAP bundle equivalent yet, that's about it. Linux has every type of server imaginable and the tools available are usually better. The wizards and shit MS provides may be simpler up front but that only gets you so far and eventually you end up looking for a 3rd party tool to help you out. MS is improving that with their support for PowerShell, but PowerShell really sucks so it's a win/lose situation.

 

[kamikazekyle]

I'm kinda getting the itch to try Linux at home again. At work, I'm a Storage/Unix(Solaris)/Windows admin and practically live in SSH and command lines, and set up an LDAP server for our Unix boxes.

My most recent touch with consumer Linux, however, was on an MSI Wind that didn't go so well. Lack of drivers for the GMA 500 video pretty much locked me into an unaccelerated low resolution mess, and there was no native driver for my wifi. Before that, I ran a headless 8TB mdadm RAID5 file server. Aside from some slowness due to lack of proper partition alignment for the drives at the time, it ran pretty good so long as I didn't update any of the core services. I tried upgrading the kernel once through apt-get and that didn't go over so well.

Everything before that, though, was a mess. I never could keep a Linux installation working for more than a month before I got myself into a situation where I was spending hours upon hours just trying to get a shell back up that decided it didn't want to start, or figure out why my hardware suddenly was no longer seen by the OS. Granted, that was a few years ago, and from what I've been following with consumer Linux it's made pretty large leaps in reliability and driver support.

Microsoft has come a very long way, however, with Windows 7 and 2008R2 plus native tools. It's pretty trivial to set up a 2008R2 integrated DNS/active directory/DHCP server and get clients on it with working group policies. Heck, I even made a typo in the AD domain, and renamed/migrated the domain in less than 15 minutes after it was already live. I use PowerShell a lot on my Windows boxes and tend to like it over VBScript, though their AD integration is surprisingly crappy with PowerShell. In that case, I *did* go and download some 3rd party tools to make the commands easier. Other things (like Arrays) are handled quite odd as well. I usually bind to a .NET Array object since they're easier to work with. So, yea, they really started getting some easy to use but powerful scripting together with PowerShell, but then drop the ball in a few places.

Anywho, maybe I'll grab a Linux distro this weekend and toy around with it again. It's been a while, and since I'm going to be by myself during the extended Christmas weekend, it'll be a good chance to give Linux another shot.

 

[lxskllr]

FWIW, I'm about as noobie as they come, and I can get Ubuntu and and Debian based distros working well for me. Most of that is due to great support out of the box, but I'm also persistent in searching out fixes to problems. I haven't had anything too terrible popup in awhile though. It's just install, and run. Easy as can be :^)

 

[cheesehead]

From my experience, Linux's greatest strength is also its' greatest weakness. The same massive fragmentation that lets you run the same software on everything from cell phones to supercomputers means it's also quite a ah heck to actually support commercial software.

Also, DirectX is pretty much the de facto industry standard for consumer computing. Seems to work pretty well, too.

yes, you would only think that if you have no idea what communism or socialism really is.

No offense, just saying...

aaaaaaauuuuuughhh

 

[VinDSL]

SOURCE: Vator.tv

Russia transitioning to Linux in 2012
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin orders Linux
and free software over proprietary software

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin signed an order Monday calling for the federal government to transition from proprietary technologies software to free alternatives. The biggest change, which is slated to begin in the second quarter of 2012, is the move to Linux-based systems.

The order affects all federal agencies and any organizations funded by the federal budget.

Such a move, if truly followed through, would be a huge blow to Microsoft, whose (not free) Windows operating system has for decades served as the go-to product for businesses and governments all over the world. Putin’s order also likely encompasses servers also, which is probably a good thing considering that the most reliable hosting company sites, according to Netcraft, operate under free systems.[...]

 

[Nothinman]

From my experience, Linux's greatest strength is also its' greatest weakness. The same massive fragmentation that lets you run the same software on everything from cell phones to supercomputers means it's also quite a ah heck to actually support commercial software.

Not really. Why would a company worry about supporting every distro available? All they have to do is list their supported distros and make any others best effort. Doesn't seem to be hurting companies like Oracle, IBM, etc.

Also, DirectX is pretty much the de facto industry standard for consumer computing. Seems to work pretty well, too.

Yea it does, although libraries like SDL exist that can use whatever backend is available (i.e. DX or OpenGL) and support most OSes available. The same official support restrictions as above could apply as well.

 

[Anteaus]

I think this conversation is very interesting but for the rampant partiality. The debate always ends up turning into a Windows Versus Linux deathmatch when it really isn't that cut and dry.

Operating systems are tools, and tools are often chosen by the job you intend to use them for. At its core, what this means is that many pro-linux advocates are people who find linux useful for their day to day computing activities. Pro-windows advocates are people who find Windows useful for their day to day computing activities. Obviously there is a fringe group who are anti-commercial software who would pick linux blindly, but most users the choice is often not a financial one.

I'll agree that linux is stable. Very stable. However, lets not fool ourselves into thinking that the stability is consistant. Windows is pretty damn stable also before you start throwing software at it. Linux is no different. Once you throw ina X server and start converting linux from "unix-like" to a more "windows-like" that stability takes a nose dive. If all your doing with linux is compiling code a playing the occasionally MP3, then there aren't issues...but neither do you have these issues with Windows. All i'm saying is that when people say Linux is more stable than windows, that stability is conditional on how your using your machine.

Linux users a little snobby. You almost have to be, just like Apple users, but for different reasons. Being competent at linux means a level of understanding that far exceeds the average PC user. I'm talking about real competency...not the ability to start a Ubuntu Live CD and hit install. I think this is the heart of the battle. Linux users just can't stomach the idea of "mainstream". It's almost insulting to see Windows get all this attention when its "obvious" that they write "substandard" code.
So what is the linux response? Distros like Mandriva and Ubuntu which are, IMO, even more insulting to the linux community than Windows.

Here's my ultimate point. As linux users, enjoy your niche market and snobbiness. Stop trying to compete with Windows and just enjoy your strengths. Linux will NEVER be mainstream. The average user simply can't be bothered, and thats not a bad thing. Not everyone is heavy into computing as a hobby/job. Everytime I hear a linux user claim that OpenGL is the key to defeating Windows, I think about how bad the desperation has gotten to be wanted in the world. Honestly, do you really think that the primary reason linux isn't the worldwide mainstream OS of choice is merely due to 3D support?

Anyways, Linux is great. Windows is great. Have a cookie. 😛

 

[Nothinman]

Operating systems are tools, and tools are often chosen by the job you intend to use them for. At its core, what this means is that many pro-linux advocates are people who find linux useful for their day to day computing activities. Pro-windows advocates are people who find Windows useful for their day to day computing activities. Obviously there is a fringe group who are anti-commercial software who would pick linux blindly, but most users the choice is often not a financial one.

Most people take whatever tool is handed to them, which is Windows 99% of the time by OEMs. They don't even know the other tools exist and sadly most wouldn't even care enough to make an informed decision.

I'll agree that linux is stable. Very stable. However, lets not fool ourselves into thinking that the stability is consistant. Windows is pretty damn stable also before you start throwing software at it. Linux is no different. Once you throw ina X server and start converting linux from "unix-like" to a more "windows-like" that stability takes a nose dive. If all your doing with linux is compiling code a playing the occasionally MP3, then there aren't issues...but neither do you have these issues with Windows. All i'm saying is that when people say Linux is more stable than windows, that stability is conditional on how your using your machine.

On both systems the overall stability is governed by drivers, not userland software. And the free Linux drivers are consistently more stable than their Windows counterparts IME. The problem children are almost always the non-free drivers from places like nVidia. And Linux driver crashes are infinitely easier to track down.

But yes, in general usage there's no discernible difference.

Linux users a little snobby. You almost have to be, just like Apple users, but for different reasons. Being competent at linux means a level of understanding that far exceeds the average PC user. I'm talking about real competency...not the ability to start a Ubuntu Live CD and hit install. I think this is the heart of the battle. Linux users just can't stomach the idea of "mainstream". It's almost insulting to see Windows get all this attention when its "obvious" that they write "substandard" code.
So what is the linux response? Distros like Mandriva and Ubuntu which are, IMO, even more insulting to the linux community than Windows.

Any Linux user insulted by the existence of distros like Ubuntu and Mandriva is an idiot. While I don't disagree with all of the decisions made by Canonical, I don't even use Ubuntu for various reasons, I enjoy the fact that they've made Linux easier to use than Windows. The only advantages that Windows has these days are seniority and game support.

Here's my ultimate point. As linux users, enjoy your niche market and snobbiness. Stop trying to compete with Windows and just enjoy your strengths. Linux will NEVER be mainstream. The average user simply can't be bothered, and thats not a bad thing. Not everyone is heavy into computing as a hobby/job. Everytime I hear a linux user claim that OpenGL is the key to defeating Windows, I think about how bad the desperation has gotten to be wanted in the world. Honestly, do you really think that the primary reason linux isn't the worldwide mainstream OS of choice is merely due to 3D support?

Linux is already mainstream in the form of Android and it'll only be getting more marketshare. Sure that's not directly competing with Windows just yet, but since MS doesn't really have a tablet solution (no, Win7 doesn't count) it and iOS will be chipping away at it soon enough. If cloud computing really takes off this time, the OS on your local computer will be irrelevant and MS will be just another service provider alongside Google and Apple.

 

[sourceninja]

I wish I would have known linux wasn't a mainstream thing before I invested all my companies money in rolling out 75 servers...

 

[Anteaus]

You make a solid point about most of that, but I disagree about Ubuntu. I don't believe it's easier than Windows. Compatibility is still hit and miss when it comes to hardware, some of which won't work properly without the free "non-free" drivers from places like nVidia. Some applications simply don't work without further configuration that can be archaic to people who aren't in the know. At the end of the day, for most people Ubuntu is a voyage into linux that is fun and exciting for about 2 hours until they realize that it's simply more work than its worth to get anything done. Oh, and this might be blasphemy, but using Wine to run Windows apps is a contradiction to the whole premise. You're willing to use the fruits of their labor but actively denounce their existance (not the poster lol...just in general) If your just going to be running MS office and playing PC games on your linux machine, you might as well just run Windows...or in my case, run virtual machines in addition.

Your absolutely right about devices though...the small footprint and low buyin for linux means it will be rampant for firmware and proprietary device usage.

 

[Anteaus]

I wish I would have known linux wasn't a mainstream thing before I invested all my companies money in rolling out 75 servers...

We are talking about mainstream consumer use. Even in business, Windows is the primary client of choice...for now anyway. Serverside, it's a whole different ballgame. 😀

 

[Nothinman]

You make a solid point about most of that, but I disagree about Ubuntu. I don't believe it's easier than Windows. Compatibility is still hit and miss when it comes to hardware, some of which won't work properly without the free "non-free" drivers from places like nVidia.

Hardware compatibility is on par with Win7, if not better. The places where it lags are areas where Windows sucks too, mostly because the hardware sucks too. And have you used Ubuntu recently? It makes installing those non-free drivers extremely simple, there's a menu entry that will prompt you about them, download them and install them for you with 1 click. A lot simpler than Windows. The only gotcha is if you're having wifi problems and no wired connection, but the same applies to Windows.

Some applications simply don't work without further configuration that can be archaic to people who aren't in the know.

I have no idea what this means. I haven't seen a Gnome or KDE app that requires anything "archaic" in years...

At the end of the day, for most people Ubuntu is a voyage into linux that is fun and exciting for about 2 hours until they realize that it's simply more work than its worth to get anything done.

Like what? It takes me easily 2-3x as long to get everything I need installed on Windows than it does on Linux.

 

[Anteaus]

Fair enough I'll give Ubuntu another look.

I'm linking an experience that isn't exact rare when it comes to linux. I can't quantify how often problems like this occur, but I've personally hit this type of wall multiple times in my linux life and i'm certain that no matter how much they try and tighten it up, things like this will persist. Until drivers can be easily installed in standalone without the highly automated help of a package system (as in your easily installed video driver for example), average joe is simply not going to bite.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2127056

Edit : I'll give it too you that it wasn't initially a native installation, but these problems aren't restricted to this particular scenerio.

 

[Nothinman]

Fair enough I'll give Ubuntu another look.

I'm linking an experience that isn't exact rare when it comes to linux. I can't quantify how often problems like this occur, but I've personally hit this type of wall multiple times in my linux life and i'm certain that no matter how much they try and tighten it up, things like this will persist. Until drivers can be easily installed in standalone without the highly automated help of a package system (as in your easily installed video driver for example), average joe is simply not going to bite.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2127056

Edit : I'll give it too you that it wasn't initially a native installation, but these problems aren't restricted to this particular scenerio.

I've had similarly bad experiences with Windows as well. And it's usually worse because Windows ends up with no network drivers out of the box, LAN or wifi, so you need a second machine to use to manually search for, download and put drivers on a USB stick to put on the problematic machine and it's usually an hour or so of trial and error trying to figure out which driver is the right one. And that's assuming one of the driver installs that you try doesn't cause other issues too, as manufacturer's installer's have been known to do. Even with high-profile shit from Dell there's always at least 1 Intel and 1 Broadcom driver available with no way to know which one is the right one for your laptop. Most people just gloss over those experiences with Windows because they have the experience to deal with them.

 

[sourceninja]

I'm 100% frustrated by windows. I can quickly solve any linux desktop issue I run into. However I have small issues on windows that I can't find anything on the internet about and make no sense.

A perfect example is my mother's computer. I recently got her a new computer from dell with windows 7 home 64bit. She bought an iphone so I installed itunes for her. iTunes refuses to update itself and also will not burn cd's saying no burning software is installed.

I have tried fixing this for at least 2 months without any success. I'd much rather deal with issues on my linux desktop at least there I can typically work it out myself or find a internet blog with the solution.

 

[Rangoric]

I've had similarly bad experiences with Windows as well. And it's usually worse because Windows ends up with no network drivers out of the box, LAN or wifi,

Great, so my computer is using ESP to communicate with the Internet.

Windows comes with a pile of drivers for all kinds of hardware related to LAN and Wifi.

 

[Nothinman]

Great, so my computer is using ESP to communicate with the Internet.

Windows comes with a pile of drivers for all kinds of hardware related to LAN and Wifi.

Odd, my Linux machines all use drivers for network connectivity It's just that Linux drivers generally cover more hardware and the installers are updated a lot more often so more recent hardware is almost always supported by the installers shortly after the drivers are written.

Yea, it does. But they get out of date very quick and MS never releases updated installers. Win7 usually works now, but in a few months that won't be true any more. And it won't be true again until Win8 is released. Sure, I could build new, custom installers every time we get new hardware but that burden shouldn't be put on me.

 

[spikespiegal]

However I have small issues on windows that I can't find anything on the internet about and make no sense.

Kind of like how I felt when I found out there's little difference between distros like Mint or Ubuntu, or both blowing up when installed on a 845G chipset. You go into a cash strapped non-profit and tell them they have to update their legacy PC's to run Linux while XP installs fine.

Usually with windows problems you find somebody telling the truth in a tech support forum. With Linux you get 99 responses from people who have emotional issues with Bill Gates.

iTunes refuses to update itself and also will not burn cd's saying no burning software is installed.

Yep, Microsoft's fault.

I'd much rather deal with issues on my linux desktop at least there I can typically work it out myself or find a internet blog with the solution.

How 'bout you stop over and figure out how I can run CS5 on Ubuntu without having to mess with Wine or clunky VM's? Oh wait.....here comes the lecture about how I should be running Open Source image editors instead. It's my computer, but you're telling me what software I can run native, and yet Microsoft is the Evil Empire. I love it!

Dude, no adult not living in their parent's basement cares what OS they are running. We want to run the OS that most efficiently runs the applications we want to use.