MicroATX amd64 motherboard? Which one?

[idea]

I'm building a SFF box using this case. I'm pretty sure I'll be using a 939 3200+ Venice, thats the suggested one, right?

Please have a look here to see what newegg offers. My requirements are MicroATX, onboard video, and the ability to upgrade the CPU in the future.

I don't want the onboard video to be AGP. I want the newer style. I chose onboard video because I don't do much gaming and I really don't want to think about which card I should get.

I already have 1gb of DDR400 pc3200 ram, a SATA hdd, and an ide dvdrw.

 

[idea]

Well, what chipset am I looking for? What will let me run the dual core CPUs later on?

 

[Imcuneo]

Budget: ECS RS480-M
Ati Graphics: MSI RS482M4-ILD
Nvidia Graphics: GigaByte GA-K8N51GMF-9

 

[idea]

Thanks and congrats on your first post! I'm honored.

 

[Imcuneo]

I forgot about these new ones:

Gigabyte GA-K8N51PVMT-9: Features the new integrated Nvidia 6150 and TV out options (including S-Video, and Composite)

However I can Not recomend the Asus A8N-VM CSM or the Asus A8N-VM, because of the lack of heatsinks on the integrated GPU. And despite the abundance of other features, it is missing features such as RAID 5, and requires a NON-included adapter for TV out.

 

[Plester]

BIOSTAR GeForce6100-M9 - $62

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: Imcuneo
However I can Not recomend the Asus A8N-VM CSM or the Asus A8N-VM, because of the lack of heatsinks on the integrated GPU. And despite the abundance of other features, it is missing features such as RAID 5, and requires a NON-included adapter for TV out.

The OP also didn't say he cared about any of those features. Why don't you tell him to get a 7800GTX, too?

The presence of DVI-D alone makes the A8N-VM CSM one hell of a buy.

-Erwos

 

[xiled]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: Imcuneo
However I can Not recomend the Asus A8N-VM CSM or the Asus A8N-VM, because of the lack of heatsinks on the integrated GPU. And despite the abundance of other features, it is missing features such as RAID 5, and requires a NON-included adapter for TV out.

The OP also didn't say he cared about any of those features. Why don't you tell him to get a 7800GTX, too?

-Erwos

Chill, man. He's trying to help, and he said that he couldn't recommend them because of the OP's restrictions. The OP is not the only one who can benefit from this thread.

@Imcuneo: Great replies, and welcome. I was looking for a MicroATX board myself. Do you know which of these overclocks the best? I don't see too many MicroATX reviews floating around. Thanks.

EDIT: I don't need onboard graphics.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Plester
BIOSTAR GeForce6100-M9 - $62

 

[Diasper]

If overclocking there are only two real options in the SFF world

Biostar 6100 - reaches the highest overclocks but then you can get a dud and get one which can't at all. Also uses the older 6100 board.

Foxconn 6150 - uses the later more fully featured 6150 board and can overclock consistently but hits a wall around 275mhz.

If I had a CPU with a 10X multiplier or better I'd definitely go with the foxconn. Head over to hardforum.com as they've got quite alot of info on the boards and people's experiences

ps the Aspire QPack (also Chenming) are excellent cases and have quite a following

 

[Bugen]

Biostar and Foxconn? Get what you pay for.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: Bugen
Biostar and Foxconn? Get what you pay for.

Generalizations are bad (in general). Nothing wrong with Biostar boards. Never had any problems with the 4-5 I've worked with. I've gotten a bad Foxconn board before (only 1 I've ever used, though it could just be bad luck) and user comments at sales sites (i.e. Newegg) seem to indicate that there may be some truth to the above statement for them, esp. with their lower end boards.

EDIT: BTW, OP, here's AT's review of the Asus board.

 

[Diasper]

The Asus would be a great board if oly it include voltage adjustments - that really limits the overclock as does the max settable 240mhz bus. That said if not overclocking it makes among the very best boards given it's featureset including Azalia.

As I said the only decent boards are Biostar and Foxconn. As before heard over to the SFF section of hardforum.

Threads on the Foxconn and Biostar at hardforum.com

Get what you pay for? So far in the SFF world that has been not true.

Biostar has been the enthusiasts choice for quite a while. I'm sure the other tier 1 manufacturers could do better but they choose not to add overclocking options to their motherboards.

As for Foxconn, they're the ones who supply the largest computer manufacturer in the world - namely Dell. Obviously, they're now delving into retail motherboards and this is among their first - but fundamentally, thanks to their business with dell they can afford to sell motherboards cheaply thanks to the components and manufacturing equipment that they can buy in bulk. Take that from what you will.

 

[RobsTV]

Jetway A210GDMS-Pro.
Fastest onboard out of all of the choices (here 3dm2k3 = 2100+).
If TV out is even slightly important, forget about all the nvidia choices. ATi rules that area.
Full overclockable Bios (running Opteron 146 at 300x10 or 3Ghz, stock HSF).
PCIe x1 slot located between PCIe x16 and PCI slots, so if you later add a PCIe x16 video card, you will NOT lose one of the few PCI slots.
Using ULi Southbridge, not the crappy ATi Southbridge that many complain about.
Excellent HDA 8 channel audio (True Azalia, not the 6 channel stuff some pawn off as Azalia).
Composite and SVideo TV out bracket included.
20 pin power supply connector, works great with even 220w power supplies in use here.
Many user customizable Bios to choose from. Running Naked Bios here.
Been around longer, so bugs are worked out.
Jetway brand ranked by Anand as one of the best you can get.
Anand comments on how another Jetway 939 motherboard compares to the rest.

Stumbled across the ATi based Jetway while doing research to find the best 6150's to replace aged HTPC's based on NF2's.
Comparison tested the Jetway Vs Gigagyte 6150, then sold the Gigabyte and bought 5 more Jetways.
Using these for HTPC's with 24/7 HDTV priority, followed by ability to game on 100" DLP's.

 

[ND40oz]

Originally posted by: RobsTV
Jetway A210GDMS-Pro.
Fastest onboard out of all of the choices (here 3dm2k3 = 2100+).
If TV out is even slightly important, forget about all the nvidia choices. ATi rules that area.
Full overclockable Bios (running Opteron 146 at 300x10 or 3Ghz, stock HSF).
PCIe x1 slot located between PCIe x16 and PCI slots, so if you later add a PCIe x16 video card, you will NOT lose one of the few PCI slots.
Using ULi Southbridge, not the crappy ATi Southbridge that many complain about.
Excellent HDA 8 channel audio (True Azalia, not the 6 channel stuff some pawn off as Azalia).
Composite and SVideo TV out bracket included.
20 pin power supply connector, works great with even 220w power supplies in use here.
Many user customizable Bios to choose from. Running Naked Bios here.
Been around longer, so bugs are worked out.
Jetway brand ranked by Anand as one of the best you can get.
Anand comments on how another Jetway 939 motherboard compares to the rest.

Stumbled across the ATi based Jetway while doing research to find the best 6150's to replace aged HTPC's based on NF2's.
Comparison tested the Jetway Vs Gigagyte 6150, then sold the Gigabyte and bought 5 more Jetways.
Using these for HTPC's with 24/7 HDTV priority, followed by ability to game on 100" DLP's.

What bios are you running on the Jetway? Are you using a Nic card or wireless? The onboard NIC seems to crap out somewhere between 250-270 HTT and I haven't been able to get a 3x HTT mulitpier working with the modded bios over on Hardforums. Other then that, it's a good board, besides the fact that the last released bios killed my board and I've been waiting for over 2 months on Jetway to ship me a new chip.

 

[RobsTV]

Many user customizable Bios to choose from. Running Naked Bios here.

Since most systems in use here are HTPC, am using wireless NIC.
But, you are correct. In gaming rig (X-Qpack, Jetway, Opteron@3GHz, ATi X800) I did have to add a PCI NIC card that I picked up from Dell when they were on sale for 99 cents each. Many PC's lose something at high overclocked FSB speeds. Some lose onboard video, but not the Jetway. Only onboard Nic. USB, HDA, and everything else, all work fine at 300MHz FSB.

Using 3x HTT here.

Only tested with Opteron 144's and 146's, and all 6 Jetways had no problem at 300MHz FSB. (146 required 1.55v vcore to prime95, so I now run it at 290x10).

According to posts at hardforum, there is a US Jetway authorized source for Bios, and turn around is less than a week. That bios you tried has been pulled from Jetway site. (I could no longer find it). Jetway seems to reply to Bios requests within hours, and has no problems emailing testers beta Bios that feature what they desire. Never saw that in any other company. But if you want to play, or be a first tester, make sure you have another board to hot swap, or an eeprom burner, or just wait for others to test and post results. When overclocking, the Jetway requires baby steps. 5 to 10MHz at a time. If you try 20MHz, (like going from 220MHz to 240MHz), it will not boot. I find it easier and more forgiving by first lowering multiplier to 6x, then slowly run up FSB to 290+, then raise multiplier back to max, then finish raising FSB to 300MHz.

 

[Diasper]

I read about the Jetway over at hardforum but it seemed a fair few people were experiencing problems - or rather the board seemed to change behaviour constantly.

How have ram multipliers held up? Also, has the computer been fine cold booting at those fsb as others have complained of? So are you using a beta bios - any specific one?

Only other question I have is do they have (any bios that can) support for dual-core opterons?

 

[RobsTV]

Originally posted by: Diasper
I read about the Jetway over at hardforum but it seemed a fair few people were experiencing problems - or rather the board seemed to change behaviour constantly.

How have ram multipliers held up? Also, has the computer been fine cold booting at those fsb as others have complained of? So are you using a beta bios - any specific one?

Only other question I have is do they have (any bios that can) support for dual-core opterons?

CPU choice can determine max FSB more than motherboard.
Many issues reported were with CPU's that could not handle the high FSB speeds the Jetway is capable of. Opteron's are the cheery picked A64's, so they should have no problems at high FSB speeds.

Many users do not understand Bios settings, and the need to lower HTT to 600MHz, as well as memory to very low speeds, prior to making any adjustments. For example, when starting with FSB of 200MHz (default), memory should be set at 133MHz (266MHz DDR), because when FSB is raised to 300MHz, memory then becomes 233MHz. This yields an after boot memory speed of 466MHz. I have no problems running cheap Rosewill PC3200 ram at 233/466MHz. Some may need to choose 100MHz in memory, which will end up at 400MHz DDR speeds. HTT settings are based on 200MHz FSB. So when running 300MHz, you set in Bios 600MHz HTT (1GHz = 200x5 default, 600 = 200x3, 300x3 = 900 or close enough).

Others reported issues with SATA drives. But looking over posts, this seems more of an operator error by those not familiar with Windows and SATA support. Windows does not natively support SATA, and drivers from a floppy are required during windows installation. When done properly (even had to do it with nvidia motherboard), windows has no problems booting SATA.

Running a sleepeeg3 modified Bios, named "Naked Bios". It is not a beta Bios.
When flashing Bios you have a couple options between full and partial. I always do a full erase first, then a full flash. Perhaps if done another way, Bios will not perform at it's best.

I did have cold boot problem only with the Opteron 146, and thought as well that it was a motherboard issue. But after installing a Opteron 144 in same system, and having zero problems or issues at 300MHz, retested 146. Turns out it was the CPU. After increasing vcore, cold boot problem was solved. But instead of leaving it at that, I lowered voltage and FSB for 24/7 everyday use. Only have 1 Opteron 146, and the rest are Opteron 144's. All of the 144's have no problems at 300x9.

Sorry I do not know if Bios supports Dual Core, but I would assume so.

After dozens of HTPC's using mATX boards from all the major players, mostly NF2 from Asus, Shuttle (MN31n) and Albatron (Km18G Pro), these Jetways are by far the most stable and smooth running motherboards I have ever seen or used. Have now upgraded most of my full size ATX socket A boards (such as Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe, and Gigabyte 7n400 Pro) to the Jetways.

Fully loaded 24/7 everyday Jetway with Opteron 144 at 300x9

Jetway at 300x10 with Opteron 146 prior to tweaking

Note that the above is in HTPC with only a 220w power supply!!!!!

 

[Diasper]

Sounds pretty good that!

One quick question - just to test for ultimate stability have you tried S&M?

 

[Jen]

on Jetway board useing the Naked Bios the bios does support dual core as i have one that i use

as others stated the onboard nic goes out on me a little above 250 fsb

i should try to see if a pci nic will help me go further with this dual core since i have now a extra pci slot to use it in

hugs

Jen

 

[Diasper]

Quick question is 300HTT the max or can you go further? Are they consistently getting to 300HTT (as opposed to the inconsistency of the Biostar)


Also what are all the RAM ratio options on the modded bios

 

[RobsTV]

Originally posted by: Diasper
Quick question is 300HTT the max or can you go further? Are they consistently getting to 300HTT (as opposed to the inconsistency of the Biostar)


Also what are all the RAM ratio options on the modded bios

These are my first A64 boards, (from socket A) so not yet 100% familar with A64 terms.
FSB is limited to max 300MHz in Bios (200MHz-300MHz range).
HTT settings are 1GHz, 800MHz, 600MHz (what I use), 400MHz, 200MHz. (5x,4x,3x,2x,1x).
With my limited knowledge, I think 600MHz HTT equals 3x, so at 300MHz FSB that would be 900MHz.
The HTT numbers are based on a stock FSB of 200MHz, with 200x3=600 and 300x3=900MHz HTT.

The boards I have were all Newegg Jetway sealed Refurbs ($55 delivered), so it is possible hardware changes or mods to the board were performed by Jetway that original shipped versions might not have. Doubtful, but possible.

Have 6 of these Jetways, and all 6 run Opteron 144's (vcore at 1.50v) at 300MHz x 9, so yes, I would say 100% success indicates consistant results for the boards. However, an Opteron 146 I have only did 300MHz with higher vcore (vcore 1.55v). So the boards WILL do 300Mhz, but your CPU might not. Most of the Opteron 144's using stock HSF and CPU runs in the low 40c's. The 146 at 3GHz temp was 51c. Now running the Opteron 146 at 281x10, or 2810, which keeps CPU temps down near 40C using stock HSF with a vcore of 1.50v. That 2810MHz is still faster than the 2700MHz my 144's run at, so not too unhappy.

With system running 300MHz right now, memory settings in Bios give me these options:
Auto, 200MHz, 233MHz (What I am running = 466MHz DDR), 266MHz, and 300MHz.

If I set FSB at stock 200MHz, memory settings in Bios are as follows:
Auto, 100MHz, 133MHz, 166MHz, 200MHz.

With 266MHz FSB memory shows settings of: auto, 166, 200, 233, 266MHz.

Other Bios settings that may be of importance are:
vcore up to 1.55v in increments of .025v
Vram 2.55, 2.65 (default), 2.75, 2.85v. (using 2.75v)
Chipset 1.8v (default), 1.9v (using 1.8v)
Onboard video GFX clock 200, 250, 266, 300, 333, 350MHz.
(note board has 32meg onboard dedicated video memory, plus whatever is shared, and both can be disabled or just one enabled, or both enabled).

 

[Diasper]

Thanks alot as that decides the answer of what to match this board concerning CPU multiplier.

My approximate thinking as I'm thinking of going dual-core and am questioning which to go with:

300mhz as the max setting I guess makes it the max settable option so on a 9x multiplier anyone would be limited to 2.7ghz - means a 10x (or greater) multiplier is really needed (3200+, 146, X2 3800+ or 170) to ensure getting the most out of it.

RAM dividers are
1:1, 5:6, 2:3, 1:2
Which means again that a dual-core cpu with a 10X multiplier would be best as unless you have RAM that can do 250mhz+ (using 5:6 ratio or even 1:1 ratio) a 10x muliplier with say an overclock of 2.7ghz with the 5:6 ratio would mean a fsb of 225mhz which is much doable on value RAM and is enough extra fsb to benefit dual-core

Although one quick question if it's using dividers I'm not sure why when you have it at 266mhz what's meant to be the 5:6 divider is giving you 266mhz (and 233mhz for 2:3) as options because those aren't based on dividers anymore - rather just minusing 33mhz which can't be correct?? Any way of checking?

 

[RobsTV]

With system running 300MHz FSB right now, Bios memory settings are set at 233MHz.

Boot screen shows 466MHz DDR.
CPU-Z shows Frequency at 193.5MHz and FSB:FRAM at CPU/14
Which one is correct?

Memtest-86 v3.2 shows mem 1923MB/s (L1 Cache 22200MB/s, L2 Cache 5516MB/s).

 

[Diasper]

Strange - quick question though - are you running on any .5 dividers? Because if you are that'll be affecting things