Michigan Universities can once again bias for minorities in admissions.

[spidey07]

Not saying that at all. I went to high school with many intelligent blacks who dropped out to work at 16 to help support their family. They never had the chance to go to college, and honestly never had the chance to move up into the next income bracket.

You are making a strawman argument.

Wanna actually read what I said?



There is a difference between smart and educated. I'm saying that black people as a whole are less educated. There is a huge difference. I was talking about education and you are talking about intelligence. See the difference? Maybe I should have been more clear to say that it is the former and not the latter, but I thought that was sufficiently clear.

Look at high school graduation rates for blacks versus the population at large, rates of college enrollment and rates of college graduates. You will see a staggering lack of education. Like I said in the prior post, before you ignored the content to make a weak strawman argument, the problem is barriers.

Barriers.



Barriers.

That is the problem. That is what exists today because of slavery and Jim Crow laws. They aren't clearly and legally defined as they were in the past, but it is a legacy that has carried from that time. But because they aren't legally defined doesn't mean that they don't exist. The barriers are there and they are real.

Edit: I see you added that last paragraph. Affirmative action isn't "the belief that one race is inferior to another". It is the belief that the society we have created has oppressed a race and created barriers for them. Exceptional barriers.

It's not barriers. There is absolutely nothing standing in the way of a minority student achieving good grades and succeeding in college. It's a culture where getting an education and bettering yourself is "acting white" and is highly discouraged among peers.

It's all self imposed. Until blacks (or as you hinted all lower social economic status, but mainly blacks) change this culture, things will never change. And affirmative action seeks to keep it that way (ensuring that blacks themselves view each other as inferior or sub class) which is why liberals overwhelmingly support it - they must have that consistent voting block dependent on their handouts. Without it, democrats would cease to exist.

Talk to a successful black man, he's no liberal.

 

[classy]

It's not barriers. There is absolutely nothing standing in the way of a minority student achieving good grades and succeeding in college. It's a culture where getting an education and bettering yourself is "acting white" and is highly discouraged among peers.

It's all self imposed. Until blacks (or as you hinted all lower social economic status, but mainly blacks) change this culture, things will never change. And affirmative action seeks to keep it that way (ensuring that blacks themselves view each other as inferior or sub class) which is why liberals overwhelmingly support it - they must have that consistent voting block dependent on their handouts. Without it, democrats would cease to exist.

Talk to a successful black man, he's no liberal.

I am not a liberal fully, but I am a conservative democrat. But how is things suppose to change, if good students, maybe not great students, of minorities can't get into some of these schools? Also I have heard this argument a lot, but what is lost is the fact these students are above average students. These are not C level students. Now maybe not the athletes, but I been saying for a while now, this really benefits them. And those students benefit the college, immediately sometimes.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Talk to a successful black man, he's no liberal.

He isn't in a position to be. He hasn't had it easy, like whites.
We can be casual about our success, thus broad in our outlook. The black man who has successfully overcome racism would be belittling his own journey not to concentrate on his own personal struggles.

Spidey fails yet again.

And still no challenge for DominionSeraph.

 

[classy]

Yeah Baby.. that is total sweetness. Willow, the ultimate bad girl.

 

[Doppel]

Pretending that anything along the affirmative action lines meant to try and repair the damage done by centuries of oppression is racism is absurd.

In fact, it's absurd to pretend it's not, regardless of the motivation behind it.

The way to get more blacks into college is not to accept them there when they're not prepared (because if they were they wouldn't need affirmative action) but to start early. In most cities in the US minorities are disproportionately represented in high school drop out numbers, juvenile delinquency, etc. They are suffering ills well before college. Letting a person in who's not prepared is silly.

We all know this, it's all been argued a million times (if not more).

 

[classy]

In fact, it's absurd to pretend it's not, regardless of the motivation behind it.

The way to get more blacks into college is not to accept them there when they're not prepared (because if they were they wouldn't need affirmative action) but to start early. In most cities in the US minorities are disproportionately represented in high school drop out numbers, juvenile delinquency, etc. They are suffering ills well before college. Letting a person in who's not prepared is silly.

We all know this, it's all been argued a million times (if not more).

How do you know if a person is prepared? Just on grades? The streets are full of crackheads, homeless, and deviants of all kind who had great minds and produced great grades. So again what is your magic 8 ball? Again, these are not poor students. These are not C level students. In many cases they are equal, but lack the money or extended support, so AA gives them the opportunity.

 

[ProfJohn]

I am not a liberal fully, but I am a conservative democrat. But how is things suppose to change, if good students, maybe not great students, of minorities can't get into some of these schools? Also I have heard this argument a lot, but what is lost is the fact these students are above average students. These are not C level students. Now maybe not the athletes, but I been saying for a while now, this really benefits them. And those students benefit the college, immediately sometimes.

Did you skip my post??

Let's say the University of Michigan has a minimum SAT score of 1000 and anyone below that is not allowed into the school.

But problem is that not enough blacks don't reach that score so they make exceptions and allow 50 blacks with sub 1000 scores into the school.

All the liberals love the idea. More blacks in the school gives it a better balance, its gives these kids a chance they wouldn't otherwise have. The kids get to go to the best state school of their dreams. Everyone is happy...

Until... the first day of school roles around and these 50 students are the least qualified students on campus. All of a sudden the kid with the 950 SAT is sitting in class with kids with 1100 and 1200 SAT scores. He can't keep up with the work load. He starts to fall behind in class. He starts to get bad grades and is place on academic probation and eventually is flunked out of school.

Meanwhile a kid from his same school who had an even worse SAT score, say 900, goes to Michigan State where he is surrounded with kids who have similar SAT scores and he is an average student. He gets decent grades and graduates.

So at the end of the day the kid who everyone was so happy about getting the opportunity to attend the better school is a college dropout while the poorer performing and not as capable student has a college degree.

The best thing we can do as a society is to ensure that these kids get a chance to go to a school that they can graduate from and do whatever we can do to make sure they can pay for their schooling.


Also, keep in mind that college is essentially universal now days. Anyone with a high school diploma can go to college at the community college level and up. So telling a kid he can't go to Univ. Michigan doesn't mean he can't go to school at all, it just means he has to attend Mi. State or a smaller local school. But at the end of the day he will still have a college degree.

 

[spidey07]

How do you know if a person is prepared? Just on grades? The streets are full of crackheads, homeless, and deviants of all kind who had great minds and produced great grades. So again what is your magic 8 ball? Again, these are not poor students. These are not C level students. In many cases they are equal, but lack the money or extended support, so AA gives them the opportunity.

Five me a fucking break. If you are black you will be accepted to college and have it paid for and most will fail or drop due to peer pressure. Only the strong mind prevails in the crucible of college. And it is black culture that snuffs the strong mind and will. Nothing more.

There are no barriers except a culture of "yous being white, gotta keep it reals"

Heal yourself. Until the black culture does that. Fuck them.

 

[ProfJohn]

How do you know if a person is prepared? Just on grades? The streets are full of crackheads, homeless, and deviants of all kind who had great minds and produced great grades. So again what is your magic 8 ball? Again, these are not poor students. These are not C level students. In many cases they are equal, but lack the money or extended support, so AA gives them the opportunity.

SAT scores are a direct indicator of someone's likely hood of graduating from college. Don't take my take the word of the guy who was provost of the largest state university system in the county.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/opinion/18salins.html

Among the campuses that raised selectivity, the average incoming student’s SAT score increased 4.5 percent (at Cortland) to 13.3 percent (Old Westbury), while high school grade-point averages increased only 2.4 percent to 3.7 percent — a gain in grades almost identical to that at campuses that did not raise their SAT cutoff.

Yet when we look at the graduation rates of those incoming classes, we find remarkable improvements at the increasingly selective campuses. These ranged from 10 percent (at Stony Brook, where the six-year graduation rate went to 59.2 percent from 53.8 percent) to 95 percent (at Old Westbury, which went to 35.9 percent from 18.4 percent).

Most revealingly, graduation rates actually declined at the seven SUNY campuses that did not raise their cutoffs and whose entering students’ SAT scores from 1997 to 2001 were stable or rose only modestly. Even at Binghamton, always the most selective of SUNY’s research universities, the graduation rate declined by 2.8 percent.

 

[classy]

Did you skip my post??

Let's say the University of Michigan has a minimum SAT score of 1000 and anyone below that is not allowed into the school.

But problem is that not enough blacks don't reach that score so they make exceptions and allow 50 blacks with sub 1000 scores into the school.

All the liberals love the idea. More blacks in the school gives it a better balance, its gives these kids a chance they wouldn't otherwise have. The kids get to go to the best state school of their dreams. Everyone is happy...

Until... the first day of school roles around and these 50 students are the least qualified students on campus. All of a sudden the kid with the 950 SAT is sitting in class with kids with 1100 and 1200 SAT scores. He can't keep up with the work load. He starts to fall behind in class. He starts to get bad grades and is place on academic probation and eventually is flunked out of school.

Meanwhile a kid from his same school who had an even worse SAT score, say 900, goes to Michigan State where he is surrounded with kids who have similar SAT scores and he is an average student. He gets decent grades and graduates.

So at the end of the day the kid who everyone was so happy about getting the opportunity to attend the better school is a college dropout while the poorer performing and not as capable student has a college degree.

The best thing we can do as a society is to ensure that these kids get a chance to go to a school that they can graduate from and do whatever we can do to make sure they can pay for their schooling.


Also, keep in mind that college is essentially universal now days. Anyone with a high school diploma can go to college at the community college level and up. So telling a kid he can't go to Univ. Michigan doesn't mean he can't go to school at all, it just means he has to attend Mi. State or a smaller local school. But at the end of the day he will still have a college degree.

Your whole post is off base.

For one I have said this so so many times its nauseating. AA is not just based solely on scores. A kid with a 950 ain't gonna be to far behind someone with a 1100-1200. He may not get the A or high to mid B, but he'll get a C - B- score, 2.7-3.0. You guys put forth a notion that is 100% false. The gap is not that large and many times they are equal, but the brown kid gets it for aesthetics, lol. The idea they are letting in these just horrible students is a fallacy. Its never been true, never will be true.

Now I have said many times athletes are different, judged differently. And they should be, because they help keep the lights on.

 

[classy]

SAT scores are a direct indicator of someone's likely hood of graduating from college. Don't take my take the word of the guy who was provost of the largest state university system in the county.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/opinion/18salins.html

I never said it wasn't an indicator. But its not the sole factor. And again, the entry of these "lesser" students is not so much they are incapable of getting good grades and graduating. They just have to work harder. But you want to deny them regardless.

 

[Doppel]

How do you know if a person is prepared? Just on grades? The streets are full of crackheads, homeless, and deviants of all kind who had great minds and produced great grades. So again what is your magic 8 ball? Again, these are not poor students. These are not C level students. In many cases they are equal, but lack the money or extended support, so AA gives them the opportunity.

You know the same way you know for any kid applying to college.

 

[ProfJohn]

I never said it wasn't an indicator. But its not the sole factor. And again, the entry of these "lesser" students is not so much they are incapable of getting good grades and graduating. They just have to work harder. But you want to deny them regardless.

What I want is for more blacks to have degrees and less of them to end up drop outs because some well meaning liberal thought that they should be giving a chance to 'try harder.'


Click on the link and read the article. He spells it out very clearly.


And keep in mind that AA is almost always about taking a poorer performing student and pushing him up to a school that they are not qualified to attend. And we haven't even address the poor white/asian kid who gets denied entrance to their school of choice so someone with worse grade and worse test scores can attend because someone liberal wanted to feel good about themselves.

 

[classy]

What I want is for more blacks to have degrees and less of them to end up drop outs because some well meaning liberal thought that they should be giving a chance to 'try harder.'


Click on the link and read the article. He spells it out very clearly.


And keep in mind that AA is almost always about taking a poorer performing student and pushing him up to a school that they are not qualified to attend. And we haven't even address the poor white/asian kid who gets denied entrance to their school of choice so someone with worse grade and worse test scores can attend because someone liberal wanted to feel good about themselves.

The article tells me nothing really. Its to be expected that if I choose the most elite students, of course I am going to have better success. That is not something unique. Texas and Florida will always have dominate college teams because they recruit the top talent. You can't have more blacks with college degrees, if you don't give them the chance to go to college. How else are you suppose to have more? A black student who was an A student in an inner city high school ain't the same as a private school student who gets an A.

The private school kid will get better scores, not because he is smarter generally, but he has had better preparedness. So the black student who has exhausted all the resources afforded him, deserves a chance to get the same resources as the white kid. You say you won't one thing, but yet one avenue to at least provide the chance to do that, you want to take that away. I am not in any way blaming anyone or making excuses, but I see no reason to look at other factors in judging whether a student should be given entrance into a certain school.

 

[ProfJohn]

What is really interesting is how AA is a perfect microcosm of liberal vs conservative though.

A conservative wants equality of opportunity.
Every student should be given a chance to go to college based on their personal skills and ability.

A liberal wants equality of outcome.
Every college must graduate students based on their areas racial demographics.

Liberals don't care about results, they only care about things being fair. It's not fair that only 5% of U of M students are black when 14% of the state is black so we must fix this problem!

 

[ProfJohn]

You can't have more blacks with college degrees, if you don't give them the chance to go to college.

I am giving them a chance. Anyone with a high school diploma can go to college in this country.

If the black kid can't get into U of M he can try Michigan State or Eastern Michigan or Grand Valley or Wayne State or Wayne County Community College.

What I am saying is that we need to steer these students into schools where they can succeed and graduate from.

What liberals AA supporters are saying is that we have to put these kids into schools they aren't ready for just because they are black and are under represented.

 

[classy]

What is really interesting is how AA is a perfect microcosm of liberal vs conservative though.

A conservative wants equality of opportunity.
Every student should be given a chance to go to college based on their personal skills and ability.

A liberal wants equality of outcome.
Every college must graduate students based on their areas racial demographics.

Liberals don't care about results, they only care about things being fair. It's not fair that only 5% of U of M students are black when 14% of the state is black so we must fix this problem!

Thats not true and you know it.

Conservatives say they want equality of opportunity. But at every juncture and every area of society they have sought to take away opportunity. Should a black student be denied because he couldn't take certain chem classes because where he went to school they couldn't afford the equipment. College is the next level of development for athletes as well. Should a star athlete who will provide many financial benefits to the school and his fellow students, not get a scholarship over a student who is a better student, but provides absolutely nothing else?

Liberals desire everyone to be happy even if it means bending rules, conservatives desire only 'those' deemed fit the opportunity to be happy.

 

[ProfJohn]

Should a black student be denied because he couldn't take certain chem classes because where he went to school they couldn't afford the equipment.

Should a white student be denied because we feel sorry for that black kid?

Liberals desire everyone to be happy even if it means bending rules, conservatives desire only 'those' deemed fit the opportunity to be happy.

Conservatives are the ones who want color blind admissions.
Liberals are the ones who want to decide things based on color.

Which is the one trying to 'deem' who is or isn't fit?

 

[HendrixFan]

It's not barriers. There is absolutely nothing standing in the way of a minority student achieving good grades and succeeding in college. It's a culture where getting an education and bettering yourself is "acting white" and is highly discouraged among peers.

There is certainly potpourri going on, and I did witness black kids in high school being teased by other blacks for "acting white" for being in honors classes. Why is that? Why is there such a hatred amongst blacks (not all obviously) towards whites? Remnants of slavery. Like I said before, you can't just set 'em free and say everything is equal now. There are UGLY after effects of slavery.

It's all self imposed. Until blacks (or as you hinted all lower social economic status, but mainly blacks) change this culture, things will never change. And affirmative action seeks to keep it that way (ensuring that blacks themselves view each other as inferior or sub class) which is why liberals overwhelmingly support it - they must have that consistent voting block dependent on their handouts. Without it, democrats would cease to exist.

Talk to a successful black man, he's no liberal.

It isn't all self imposed. The culture of blacks (and most of those of lower social economic status) is one they are born into, through no choice of their own. The idea that a person's ability and drive should determine their success is one of the keystones of the founding of our country. Race and social class, as the numbers show, are huge factors in a persons education and financial status. The only reasonable explanation for race or social class playing a statistically noticeable role in either case is via systemic issues. Those systemic issues are built into the society we have created.

You keep arguing that affirmative action is a handout. It is no such thing. There are two ways to look at it, first as "leveling the playing field" and second as "difficulty points", though that one can probably be tied back into the first one.

Since the odds are stacked against a black person achieving the same level of success as a white person in education, this seeks to remedy that problem. College educated parents are much more likely to have college educated children. If blacks don't get into college (spare me examples of community colleges or Tier 3 schools which are paper mills that produce worthless diplomas), then how do you break that cycle? There is an invisible barrier that keeps blacks out of certain places (not entirely, but in a statistical sense). Until you start letting them in nothing will change.

The second way to look at it, the "difficulty points" way, I think should be the more moderate view. For a black person to overcome the racism that still exists, and the social barriers that exist absent of racism, and make it to be on the cusp of getting into a fine institution; that is more impressive or "difficult" of a feat than a suburban kid with two parents who pay for summer camps and tutors and have family dinners all while getting 50 more points on his/her SATs. I think, based on the questions you see on most admission forms, this is the more important aspect of AA. I know here at UT Austin the questions are pointed in that direction, so that they can use AA even though they aren't allowed to use AA.

The idea that AA is a handout that keeps blacks voting for liberals is stupid. Just like the EIC, handouts to the poor (I'm not even sure I would agree that AA is a handout or that it even affects that many blacks, seems more like a W.E.B. Dubois thing but I digress...) keep the poor from revolting against the rich. Without welfare, EIC, foodstamps, etc, the rich would be eaten alive by the poor. Handouts don't benefit liberals, they benefit conservatives by placating a sizeable portion of the population that would be empowered by rage from hunger.

 

[DominionSeraph]

A conservative wants equality of opportunity.

 

[HendrixFan]

A conservative wants equality of opportunity.

If that was true then conservatives wouldn't fight against the estate tax, nor would they want estates to pass on through the generations. Nor would they even want to set up a college fund. They wouldn't want to deprive their own flesh and blood of equal opportunity, a chance to really prove their mettle against those that weren't fortunate to have different parents.

It's not fair that only 5% of U of M students are black when 14% of the state is black so we must fix this problem!

There is a difference between 5% to 14% that you cite, and the 5% to 50% that exists where I live. We can certainly quarrel over what the solution is, but you have to admit there is a problem when there is such a staggering disparity going on.