Michigan to follow Wisconsin?

[tgferg67]

Public workers in Michigan have long rode the coattails of the unionized worforce in the private sector here in Michigan. The things in that happened in the private sector now need to refelect in the public sector.

 

[Acanthus]

She didn't ruin the State. She certainly didn't help either. But I'm talking about the jobs/highest unemployment numbers, not Ford's profits. Just because Ford is doing great doesn't mean the people here are. They are getting better but Detroit still has a long, long way to go. None of that is her making. Jenny doesn't explain Fords profits.

Oh i completely agree.

Fords fortunes aren't because of Jenny.

But it is an example of how the UAW and Ford negotiated to get to mutually beneficial agreements. The UAW gave up quite a bit to keep Ford competitive, but the UAW still does a LOT for workers at Ford.

 

[davmat787]

Strip club managers could power most elected officials

FTFY

 

[zsdersw]

In Ford's case, it was also an immense help that they had products that people actually wanted to buy... whereas, by comparison, GM and Chrysler's products left a lot to be desired when the downhill slide got serious.

 

[boomerang]

In Ford's case, it was also an immense help that they had products that people actually wanted to buy... whereas, by comparison, GM and Chrysler's products left a lot to be desired when the downhill slide got serious.

No, I'm sorry but I have to correct you. We could argue their product lineups at the time but that is not why Ford survived without a bailout.

Ford survived as it did, without a bailout from the feds, because of what essentially boils down to luck. Luck in that Alan Mulally rolled the dice and mortgaged everything they owned, everything, prior to the meltdown. RE values were still high and financing was still readily available during that timeframe. Had he not done that, their financial position would have mirrored the other domestic automakers.

The argument would be something along the lines of was Mr. Mulally a savant or just lucky? As far as I know, he has never taken the position of being a savant , so I'm going with lucky.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30576127/ns/business-autos/

The article is from May of 2009.

Two years ago, having just arrived in Detroit from Boeing and profiting from a stronger credit market, Ford’s Chief Executive Alan Mulally mortgaged every conceivable asset owned by the automaker — including the iconic blue oval Ford logo — to the tune of $23 billion to finance its turnaround plan.

Today, Ford has around $30 billion on hand, enough to finance its day-to-day operating needs until sometime in 2010, when the auto market is expected to pick up again, according to analysts.

I really don't want to sidetrack the thread though.

 

[zsdersw]

No, I'm sorry but I have to correct you. We could argue their product lineups at the time but that is not why Ford survived without a bailout.

I didn't say it was why they survived without a bailout, I said it was an immense help.

Besides... if they didn't have a compelling product lineup, they couldn't have made payments on all of their "mortgages".

 

[Exterous]

Here's a Detroit News article that references it:

http://detnews.com/article/20110309...ency-manager-bills-move-forward#ixzz1GGEg7guO
​

There are some requirements:

• Specify that an emergency manager would be chosen on the basis of competence; need not be a resident of the local government; may be an individual or firm; and would serve at the pleasure of the state treasurer, with the concurrence of the state school superintendent if the local government is a school district. (Currently the emergency manager cannot be a firm). If the emergency manager were a firm, Analysis available at http://www.legislature.mi.gov HB 4214 -4218 & 4246 as reported Page 5 of 27 then a spokesperson would have to be employed by the firm to serve as the point of contact for the public.

• Require that an emergency manager (or at least one person within the firm if the emergency manager is a firm) have attained a degree in accounting, business,public administration, or a related field from an accredited institution and have a minimum of five years' experience in local or state budgetary or fiscal management.

I think the debate has gotten off track here. Sure the Union issue is a hot one but I am shocked that there is almost little debate about the ability of these appointed emergency managers (WHO HAVE NO SALARY CAP!) being able to strip duly elected officials of their power. Did you vote someone on the merits of their platform? Tough shit - your say in government has been circumvented.

The proposed Local Government and School District Fiscal Accountability Act — which would repeal Michigan's current Public Act 72 that allows for appointing emergency financial managers to straighten out finances — would allow a financial manager to overrule elected officials and dissolve units of government and school districts.

Upon the declaration of receivership and during the period in which it is in effect, the governing body and the chief administrative officer of the local government could not exercise any of the powers of those offices except as may be specifically authorized in writing by the emergency
manager. Further, the powers granted to the community's elected and appointed officials would be subject to any conditions required by the emergency manager.​

The appointed manager also gets to hire a staff and procure 'services' at his own discretion that the local government he is assigned to has to pay for

If the appointed official feels you are interfering with his/her goals he can prevent access to government property, email, information systems. (Only completely removing someone from office has due process)

The official will "Exercise solely all authority concerning the adoption, amendment, and enforcement of ordinances and resolutions."

The state treasurer and school superintendent appoint these people. The state treasurer approves the emergency administrator's plans, the state treasurer submits a list of approved firms the emergence administrator is required to use at least one of. That is a shit ton of new powers tied directly to the state treasurer that previsouly rested in the hands of local elected officials
​

​

Sure it's only a couple of cities right now - but with the deep budget cuts coming the number of cities/schools will grow

Whether you are for collective bargaining or against it you should be against stripping US citizens of their say in the government

• Supersede the power or authority of any officer, employee, department, board,commission, or other entity of the local government, whether elected or appointed.
• Remove, replace, appoint, or confirm the appointments to any board, commission, authority, or other entity which is a component unit of the local government

If you want to deal with Unions - fine. Make a separate bill and go from there. But this bill....How the fuck is this ok????!!!
http://a2docs.org/assets/files/2011/02/24/2011-HLA-4214-3.pdf

 

[KMFJD]

If this allowed them to get rid of the crooks in Detroit city council it could only help the city of Detroit

 

[boomerang]

I didn't say it was why they survived without a bailout, I said it was an immense help.

Besides... if they didn't have a compelling product lineup, they couldn't have made payments on all of their "mortgages".

I was making my comment in context of the discussion that was going on. I didn't pick my opening words as well as I could have and I'm sorry for that.

 

[boomerang]

<snip>

Tell us how you'd like to see it done.

 

[Exterous]

Tell us how you'd like to see it done.

I'd like to see the powers of elected officials not being circumvented by a non-elected official.

Now - answer my question: How is this ok?

 

[boomerang]

I'd like to see the powers of elected officials not being circumvented by a non-elected official.

As I said earlier, this is happening because the elected officials have failed in their duties. They are incapable of effectively managing. Surely the answer is not to let them continue as they have been until cities shut down and provide no services and school systems are bankrupt and no longer can pay teachers and staff?

Now - answer my question: How is this ok?

It's OK, because desperate times call for desperate measures. These are not decisions made lightly. It was not Snyder's agenda to do this. It's something that must reluctantly be done. This is not unchartered territory, it's been done before. It's going to happen.

 

[Exterous]

As I said earlier, this is happening because the elected officials have failed in their duties. They are incapable of effectively managing. Surely the answer is not to let them continue as they have been until cities shut down and provide no services and school systems are bankrupt and no longer can pay teachers and staff?

Ah - so because we view elected officials as having failed they must be replaced by non-elected officials that the population they now govern have no control over? Instead of following the guidelines already in place to remove the leaders? The Emergency Manager is not subject to the same recall laws that a normal locally elected official would be. There is no local accountability

It's OK, because desperate times call for desperate measures. These are not decisions made lightly. It was not Snyder's agenda to do this. It's something that must reluctantly be done. This is not unchartered territory, it's been done before. It's going to happen.

So the end justifies the means? So, in your view the country can be desperate enough appointed officials can supplant elected congressional leaders?

And where has it been done before?

You know - for someone who has an anti-fascist link is your quote I am surprised you don't have a problem with a central authority supplanting local election processes to achieve economic regimentation while suppressing opposition to their measures

 

[boomerang]

<snip>

I see no sense in arguing with you. I suggest you file suit to block these actions.

 

[Exterous]

I see no sense in arguing with you.

So when asked for proof it has been done before you back down.
So when asked if the end justifies the means you back down.
When your hypocrisy is confronted you run away.

Interesting...

 

[boomerang]

I'm going to humor you just this once. You're acting like an hysterical schoolgirl and not worth much more of my time.

You will have to read this. I found a real short one and I will also summarize it for you. Governor Granholm appointed an Emergency Financial Manager for DPS in March of 2009. I figure it flew under your radar because there was a Democrat running the state.

 

[Exterous]

I'm going to humor you just this once. You're acting like an hysterical schoolgirl and not worth much more of my time.

You will have to read this. I found a real short one and I will also summarize it for you. Governor Granholm appointed an Emergency Financial Manager for DPS in March of 2009. I figure it flew under your radar because there was a Democrat running the state.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about and did not read the bill. this new bill repeals the old one and adds numerous new points enumerating new powers they didn't have under the old act. These include all the new issues I mentioned above. So the fact that there were prior EFMs appointed under the old bill has no impact on the issues I listed

Good job trying to cover your ignorance though.

 

[ProfJohn]

This is a good idea as long as it is used in limited circumstances.

There are many instances around the country where the local elected officials proved incapable of handling their duties when it came to managing the finances of their cities/school etc. In those cases the only way to fix the problem was to bring in someone from the outside who could make the tough choices that the local REFUSED to make.

BTW if you don't want this to happen to your local government then elect people who will do their job properly.

 

[CitizenKain]

This is a good idea as long as it is used in limited circumstances.

There are many instances around the country where the local elected officials proved incapable of handling their duties when it came to managing the finances of their cities/school etc. In those cases the only way to fix the problem was to bring in someone from the outside who could make the tough choices that the local REFUSED to make.

BTW if you don't want this to happen to your local government then elect people who will do their job properly.

The screaming the rightwingers would be doing if this came from the other party would be incredible. Expecting a rightwinger to be smart enough to understand this is apparently impossible.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

It's happening:
http://www.detnews.com/article/2011...Financial-manager-bill-passes-Michigan-Senate

 

[boomerang]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4583984/financial-emergency-bill-under-fire-in-michigan

 

[Jadow]

Why not do 2 things:

1. Sign a law limiting the property tax rates these municipalities can charge
2. Force them to have a balanced budget

Therefore you have a framework where they can't jack taxes all to hell, and they can't spend more than they bring in.

If they have to file BK, then so be it.

 

[Bateluer]

what does that have to do with WI?

And I dare people to come in from other states and mess with our capitol. It wouldn't be pretty.

Shoot, never move to Arizona. Do you have any idea how many protesters we get from California and Mexico marching on our capitol?

 

[davmat787]

The screaming the rightwingers would be doing if this came from the other party would be incredible. Expecting a rightwinger to be smart enough to understand this is apparently impossible.

If that were to be true, then the corollary is you would feel the exact opposite on this issue. Welcome to partisan politics.