Michigan GOP to revoke ALL teacher licenses if they strike

[MrEgo]

Yeah, I think parents are the worst problem, but you fix what you can fix. Government cannot make parents care about academics or discipline, but it can get rid of bad teachers and make education more cost effective - if unions don't stand in the way.

I do think the unions are too powerful. Since I grew up in the school district that I'm working for, I know who some of the awful teachers are (from personal experience), and they're still working here. I can't imagine how much more money they're getting than some of the newer, but far superior, teachers are making. I've seen some new teachers that all the kids love and respect not get tenured because they just didn't have enough seniority, but some of these shitty teachers that have been around for years still have a job.

Just as an FYI, I've talked to some of the new teachers that work in the district. They're only clearing about $35,000 per year. Granted, where I live, the cost of living isn't very high. We're about 2 hours west of Detroit and 2 hours east of Chicago.

 

[zsdersw]

That. I also work for a school district, even though I'm only involved in the IT side of things.

Likewise.

 

[werepossum]

I do think the unions are too powerful. Since I grew up in the school district that I'm working for, I know who some of the awful teachers are (from personal experience), and they're still working here. I can't imagine how much more money they're getting than some of the newer, but far superior, teachers are making. I've seen some new teachers that all the kids love and respect not get tenured because they just didn't have enough seniority, but some of these shitty teachers that have been around for years still have a job.

Just as an FYI, I've talked to some of the new teachers that work in the district. They're only clearing about $35,000 per year. Granted, where I live, the cost of living isn't very high. We're about 2 hours west of Detroit and 2 hours east of Chicago.

Agreed. Either the teachers' unions have to be dissolved, or they have to become part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I believe a few of them have taken steps in that direction.

 

[Exterous]

That's the freakin' problem: when something is broken, change is needed to fix it. Seeking out a union as a defense against (needed) changes is the problem. Change is critical, and unions oppose change whether its good or not because they see change as a threat to their power.

Yes - but the changes being proposed aren't going to fix the issue. The change isn't to the educational policy - it's not reversing bad teaching pracitses put in place for policital gain. So they rally to the union.

See above: unions are against any changes because they are only interested in increasing their power. They don't care about the kids or the schools.

The amount of money spent each year per student in public schools has always risen and continues to rise to astronomical levels. Do we get great results for all that money? No, of course not, it's going to administrators and other "overhead" (including the unions) instead of to teachers and things the students need.

Hardly. How has the Union's power increased recently? Your unfounded generalizations aside, you do know that the unions do contain teachers who do care for the kids right?

I am pretty sure the overhead does not include payment to the union other than through dues collected from teachers. Otherwise I completely agree that too much goes to overhead

Just as an FYI, I've talked to some of the new teachers that work in the district. They're only clearing about $35,000 per year. Granted, where I live, the cost of living isn't very high. We're about 2 hours west of Detroit and 2 hours east of Chicago.

IMO it's becoming economically unviable to be a teacher. New teachers make about $35,550 in Michigan. Now, 3% goes to retirees health care. (-$1050) 20% of health care costs will be added as well which appears to be around $500. There is the proposed 5% pay cut (-$1750) and then pay freeze for 3 years.

So - you go to school for 4 years to start out making $32,255 for the next 3 years

Don't forget continuing education requirements - 18 credits every 5 years

 

[werepossum]

Yes - but the changes being proposed aren't going to fix the issue. The change isn't to the educational policy - it's not reversing bad teaching pracitses put in place for policital gain. So they rally to the union.



Hardly. How has the Union's power increased recently? Your unfounded generalizations aside, you do know that the unions do contain teachers who do care for the kids right?

I am pretty sure the overhead does not include payment to the union other than through dues collected from teachers. Otherwise I completely agree that too much goes to overhead



IMO it's becoming economically unviable to be a teacher. New teachers make about $35,550 in Michigan. Now, 3% goes to retirees health care. (-$1050) 20% of health care costs will be added as well which appears to be around $500. There is the proposed 5% pay cut (-$1750) and then pay freeze for 3 years.

So - you go to school for 4 years to start out making $32,255 for the next 3 years

Don't forget continuing education requirements - 18 credits every 5 years

Don't forget that this is for roughly nine months of work a year. Teachers who work more will earn more.

 

[MrEgo]

IMO it's becoming economically unviable to be a teacher. New teachers make about $35,550 in Michigan. Now, 3% goes to retirees health care. (-$1050) 20% of health care costs will be added as well which appears to be around $500. There is the proposed 5% pay cut (-$1750) and then pay freeze for 3 years.

So - you go to school for 4 years to start out making $32,255 for the next 3 years

Don't forget continuing education requirements - 18 credits every 5 years

Meh.. the health benefits here are absolutely incredible. There's also the pension plan, and the fact that you get summers off. That equates to a lot of other jobs that are making $45,000+ in salary without the excellent benefits or time off in the summer. Don't forget that if you get tenured, you'll probably see raises in your pay that exceed what the private sector would typically see.

I don't think it's becoming unviable, but I also don't think that teachers make what everyone believes they make.

 

[zsdersw]

I work year-round. Of course, that's in IT.

 

[Exterous]

Don't forget that this is for roughly nine months of work a year. Teachers who work more will earn more.

I think people underestimate how much work teachers who really care about the kids put into their day. I also think they put up with a ton more shit than people realize. This obvisouly varries by school but some of the stories I have heard from Battle Creek, Kalamazoo, DPS, Taylor, GRP...

I don't think it's becoming unviable, but I also don't think that teachers make what everyone believes they make.

Sorry - I should have been more clear - I think it's becoming unviable for new teachers. IMO we are going to lose a lot of potential teacher talent.

 

[werepossum]

I think people underestimate how much work teachers who really care about the kids put into their day. I also think they put up with a ton more shit than people realize. This obvisouly varries by school but some of the stories I have heard from Battle Creek, Kalamazoo, DPS, Taylor, GRP...

SNIP

I think people underestimate how much work people in the private sector put into our days. For instance, I began working on a project yesterday at about 2 PM. I worked all night on it, sending the files out about 9 AM this morning to meet a deadline. I do not get overtime pay, or comp time off, for this. There are no teachers anywhere who put in those kinds of hours. The better teachers I know tend to put in 7 to 9 hours a day. Some of them think nothing about it, others would have you believe they just crawled down off the cross specifically to tell you hard hard is their lot. The worse teachers I know put in maybe seven hours a day, tops. All of them have at least one open period a day; most of them have some help at least part time.

I agree about the crap they have to put up with though. If teachers were allowed to enforce discipline and actually kick out troublemakers, results would be much better.

 

[IGBT]

what are the terms and conditions of their "license"??

 

[dmcowen674]

I also work for a school district

Wow, all these guys admitting they are part of the problem bankrupting the country.

I worked for a school district for a couple of years too until they figured out they have no brains.

I was almost part of the bankrupting the country problem.

 

[Exterous]

I think people underestimate how much work people in the private sector put into our days. For instance, I began working on a project yesterday at about 2 PM. I worked all night on it, sending the files out about 9 AM this morning to meet a deadline. I do not get overtime pay, or comp time off, for this. There are no teachers anywhere who put in those kinds of hours. The better teachers I know tend to put in 7 to 9 hours a day. Some of them think nothing about it, others would have you believe they just crawled down off the cross specifically to tell you hard hard is their lot. The worse teachers I know put in maybe seven hours a day, tops. All of them have at least one open period a day; most of them have some help at least part time.

If you don't mind my asking - how much do you make? It's probably more than $33,000 a year after working 3 years at the same place. Part of it can be argued that this is your decision. This is where it gets into my opinion that we are going to lose teaching talent. Also - this is obvisouly very much my own opinion - dealing with the disrespectful little shits and the bigger shits that spawned them is significantly harder than most if not all jobs in the same pay range. I am willing to bet the office atmosphere at your work is significantly different since we make the Public Schools put up with stuff that would get most people fired from their jobs. Changing how dicipline is handled in school would go a long way to fixing the education system

I am curious to know what you mean about help part time? I know 2 teachers who co-teach and while that does leave two of them in the same room they get most to all of the ESL/Learning Disability kids as a result. The others have no classroom assistants.

 

[werepossum]

If you don't mind my asking - how much do you make? It's probably more than $33,000 a year after working 3 years at the same place. Part of it can be argued that this is your decision. This is where it gets into my opinion that we are going to lose teaching talent. Also - this is obvisouly very much my own opinion - dealing with the disrespectful little shits and the bigger shits that spawned them is significantly harder than most if not all jobs in the same pay range. Changing how dicipline is handled in school would go a long way to fixing the education system

I am curious to know what you mean about help part time? I know 2 teachers who co-teach and while that does leave two of them in the same room they get most to all of the ESL/Learning Disability kids as a result. The others have no classroom assistants.

Mid fifties - not bad for Tennessee, but I know several teachers who are younger and earn the same amount or more, sometimes quite a bit more.

Classroom assistants and co-teachers was what I was referencing.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I think people underestimate how much work people in the private sector put into our days. For instance, I began working on a project yesterday at about 2 PM. I worked all night on it, sending the files out about 9 AM this morning to meet a deadline. I do not get overtime pay, or comp time off, for this. There are no teachers anywhere who put in those kinds of hours. The better teachers I know tend to put in 7 to 9 hours a day. Some of them think nothing about it, others would have you believe they just crawled down off the cross specifically to tell you hard hard is their lot. The worse teachers I know put in maybe seven hours a day, tops. All of them have at least one open period a day; most of them have some help at least part time.

I agree about the crap they have to put up with though. If teachers were allowed to enforce discipline and actually kick out troublemakers, results would be much better.

Then you're a total fucking idiot.

Oh, you're also a lying sack, of ignorant, worthless shit. Fuck off.

 

[werepossum]

Then you're a total fucking idiot.

Oh, you're also a lying sack, of ignorant, worthless shit. Fuck off.

That actually made me laugh. Kind of sad too though, that some people can't even conceive of working particularly hard.

 

[Exterous]

Mid fifties - not bad for Tennessee, but I know several teachers who are younger and earn the same amount or more, sometimes quite a bit more.

Classroom assistants and co-teachers was what I was referencing.

Hmmm...it seems like Tennessee has about the same starting teacher salary (after adjusting for the Snyder changes) but TN ranks 1 or 2 on lowest cost of living while MI is around 20. You also have a higher teacher:student ratio. Perhaps you will see some of our teachers moving into your area

I don't know what its like in TN but, from what I have seen, classroom assistants/co-teachers are pretty rare in Michigan

Edit: In Michigan you won't get around $55,000 until about 8 years of experience or your masters +5 years of experience

 

[MrEgo]

Wow, all these guys admitting they are part of the problem bankrupting the country.

I worked for a school district for a couple of years too until they figured out they have no brains.

I was almost part of the bankrupting the country problem.

This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read.

So my effort in adopting Office 365 for Education so that all teachers can deliver their content online through SharePoint, students have their own district email address, 25GB of cloud storage space, free access to Lync so IM/Audio/Video collaboration can take place from anywhere in the world, Office 2010 Professional Plus for $24/year for up to 5 of their home computers, and the ability to harness their mobile smart phones to create/edit/submit homework is part of the problem of bankrupting the country?

Kiss my ass. I am proud to work for a school district where my hard work and dedication has an impact on 4,500 students every single year. Shitty teachers and shitty administrators are going to have shitty effects on the students, but the people who really want to be there and the people who genuinely want to improve the district's effectiveness are the ones that are worth their weight in gold.

What would you suggest, every K12 employee resign and just say fuck it?

 

[MrEgo]

Then you're a total fucking idiot.

Oh, you're also a lying sack, of ignorant, worthless shit. Fuck off.

I can tell exactly which teachers put in the hours and which ones don't. Some teachers around here are out the door like clockwork when that bell rings at 2:40PM M-F. Others are still here until 6:30-7:00PM on some nights. I would say that the low-end effort teachers stay in the building rougly 7 hours per day, while the high-end effort teachers will stay 9-10 hours per day.

I'm not part of the union, and I'm a salary worker for the IT department in the district. 50 hours per week is nothing to me, and I can sometimes see 60 hours if I have to spend a Saturday or Sunday troubleshooting some server problem or some other random problem. I don't get paid extra, and I don't bitch about it. It's accepted that you're on-call at any point when you decide to take on an IT career, but you generally cannot get a teacher to accept this kind of attitude.

I do think teachers in general overstate the demands of their job. Obviously, the teachers that put in the extra hours are living up to that talk, but the ones that are only staying 7 hours per day are likely to tell you how hard their job is.

 

[Double Trouble]

I'm as anti-union as they come even though I work for a school district, but I also recognize that the problems with public schools are more multi-faceted than just the unions. Administration, poorly thought-out requirements from the state and federal governments, bureaucratic nonsense, and idiotic, misinformed, and indifferent parents are also just as much of a problem.

To pin public schools' problems entirely on unions is to not see the forest for the trees.

Excellent post. There are lots of places to lay blame for the mess, and the union is one of them. It's certainly not the only problem. Teachers and their union are a little like a manager of a team with expensive players that's under performing. You can't just get rid of all the players, so you end up getting rid of the manager, even if the manager wasn't necessarily the main culprit. Unfortunately, the union with their "maintain our power no matter what" ways are not helping anything either.

 

[werepossum]

I can tell exactly which teachers put in the hours and which ones don't. Some teachers around here are out the door like clockwork when that bell rings at 2:40PM M-F. Others are still here until 6:30-7:00PM on some nights. I would say that the low-end effort teachers stay in the building rougly 7 hours per day, while the high-end effort teachers will stay 9-10 hours per day.

I'm not part of the union, and I'm a salary worker for the IT department in the district. 50 hours per week is nothing to me, and I can sometimes see 60 hours if I have to spend a Saturday or Sunday troubleshooting some server problem or some other random problem. I don't get paid extra, and I don't bitch about it. It's accepted that you're on-call at any point when you decide to take on an IT career, but you generally cannot get a teacher to accept this kind of attitude.

I do think teachers in general overstate the demands of their job. Obviously, the teachers that put in the extra hours are living up to that talk, but the ones that are only staying 7 hours per day are likely to tell you how hard their job is.

Excellent post. What we need is a system in place to reward those high effort, high return teachers and eliminate those low effort, low return teachers. Teachers' unions have traditionally opposed any effort to distinguish between good and bad teachers and reward or punish accordingly, but it seems like some may grudgingly be getting on board now.