Michelin tire with 'Traction B' is rated higher than Michelin tires with Traction A??

[JEDI]

I bought the Michelin CrossClimate2 because of the great reviews.
it's ranked #1 on TireRack's charts: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=GTAS

But it's Traction is B?!
The next highest rated Michelin tire is Michelin Primacy Tour A/S with Traction A.

And the ranking isn't wrong.
I have no problems with slip/slide during heavy rain, just like my previous Michelin tire (same car).
And for jack rabbit starts, there was no tire spin in light rain. (didn't try on heavier rain)
But my old Michelin tires had tire spin for jack rabbiting on dry pavement.


So why did Michelin label it Traction B if it has great wet traction?!

 

[mindless1]

Your prior tires were the Primacy Tour? How old were they? Rubber compounds get harder as they age, can't really compare a few years old tire to a new one.

I don't put much stock in the owner tire ratings, people tend to be polarized and either like the tire and it taints their rating, or dislike and same thing. For example it's kind of absurd that any all season tire would get a rating above 7.5 for winter traction.

It's also possible that wear, esp. your jack rabbit acceleration is ragging out the vehicle (or fluid shear) so it has more torque loss than it used to.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

I bought the Michelin CrossClimate2 because of the great reviews.
it's ranked #1 on TireRack's charts: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=GTAS

But it's Traction is B?!
The next highest rated Michelin tire is Michelin Primacy Tour A/S with Traction A.

And the ranking isn't wrong.
I have no problems with slip/slide during heavy rain, just like my previous Michelin tire (same car).
And for jack rabbit starts, there was no tire spin in light rain. (didn't try on heavier rain)
But my old Michelin tires had tire spin for jack rabbiting on dry pavement.


So why did Michelin label it Traction B if it has great wet traction?!

The traction rating is based on a specific industry standard laboratory test and does not include testing wet traction.

It has a worse traction rating because it's a 3 peak mountain snowflake rated tire, which means the tread design and rubber compound are designed with lower temperatures and snow traction in mind.

The Primacy Tour A/S is a straight all season tire with no such specialization for snow and cold weather. While it may work decently for light snow and freezing temps, it has a different rubber compound and tread design that favors higher temps and dry traction. Essentially it fares better in the traction lab test due to this.


Your old tires must have been extremely worn and/or aged.

 

[JEDI]

The traction rating is based on a specific industry standard laboratory test and does not include testing wet traction.

It has a worse traction rating because it's a 3 peak mountain snowflake rated tire, which means the tread design and rubber compound are designed with lower temperatures and snow traction in mind.

The Primacy Tour A/S is a straight all season tire with no such specialization for snow and cold weather. While it may work decently for light snow and freezing temps, it has a different rubber compound and tread design that favors higher temps and dry traction. Essentially it fares better in the traction lab test due to this.


Your old tires must have been extremely worn and/or aged.

wait.. the traction rating is ONLY dry traction?!
wow, in all my decades of driving, i never knew that.

I only had 1 set of Traction B tires before and that was the Goodyear VIVA2 from last century.
slip/slide in medium rain.

since those tires, i always got Traction A tires then used Tirerack ratings and got the highest rated wet traction all season tire available from costco.

assumed all great wet traction tires were Traction A till i looked at the CrossClimate2 sidewall after the 1st rotate/wheel balance this month.

1) why doesnt the govt make manufacturers put on a wet traction rating as well?

2) so having a 3 peak symbol also means it's good in wet conditions?
3) and wow, i basically have a near winter tire with 60k mile tread

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

1) why doesnt the govt make manufacturers put on a wet traction rating as well?

No idea. However, you used the user reported subjective ratings, and you have no idea what experience these people have or how they are subjectively rating them. The only answer is real instrumented testing, which tirerack also does and publishes the results. Unfortunately they tend to only do shootouts of similar styles of tires that are cross-shopped. Since the CrossClimate2 is an all season focused on snow traction, they compared it to like tires and not to your previous tire.

Since they consider the CrossClimate2 to be Crossover/SUV + Grand Touring both tires fall under different testing categories are have been tested with different vehicles.

Tire Test Results : Testing Crossover/SUV and Grand Touring All-Season Tires 2021 (tirerack.com)
Tire Test Results : Testing the Best Grand Touring All-Season Tires (tirerack.com)

2) so having a 3 peak symbol also means it's good in wet conditions?

No, it means it passed requirements for winter traction, see below:

A 3-peak mountain snowflake rating indicates that the tire is approved by the Rubber Manufacturer’s Association as meeting the minimum requirements for performance in severe snow conditions. You can find the 3PMSF rating on both all-season and all-terrain tires, as long as they meet the testing criteria.

3) and wow, i basically have a near winter tire with 60k mile tread

Sorta, yeah. Unfortunately you may have gotten better wet and dry traction with a normal all season tire. I guess it depends on your climate if the improved snow traction is useful to you.

 

[JEDI]

Sorta, yeah. Unfortunately you may have gotten better wet and dry traction with a normal all season tire. I guess it depends on your climate if the improved snow traction is useful to you.

so far i like the wet traction.

but have yet to do the usual 30mph emergency brake test in light rain driving in center lane of empty 3 lane road that i do for all my other newly bought tires.

 

[JEDI]

The traction rating is based on a specific industry standard laboratory test and does not include testing wet traction.

It has a worse traction rating because it's a 3 peak mountain snowflake rated tire, which means the tread design and rubber compound are designed with lower temperatures and snow traction in mind.

The Primacy Tour A/S is a straight all season tire with no such specialization for snow and cold weather. While it may work decently for light snow and freezing temps, it has a different rubber compound and tread design that favors higher temps and dry traction. Essentially it fares better in the traction lab test due to this.


Your old tires must have been extremely worn and/or aged.

wiki says you're wrong:

Uniform Tire Quality Grading - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Traction grades, from highest to lowest, are AA, A, B and C.
They represent the tire's ability to stop on wet pavement as measured under controlled conditions on specified government test surfaces of asphalt and concrete.
The testing does not take into account cornering, hydroplaning, acceleration or stopping on a dry surface.


So back to my oringal question:
Why does the CrossClimate2 handle so well in rain yet only have a Traction B rating?

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

wiki says you're wrong:

Uniform Tire Quality Grading - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Traction grades, from highest to lowest, are AA, A, B and C.
They represent the tire's ability to stop on wet pavement as measured under controlled conditions on specified government test surfaces of asphalt and concrete.
The testing does not take into account cornering, hydroplaning, acceleration or stopping on a dry surface.

So it does. I was conflating the treadwear rating testing with the traction rating testing.

 

[pauldun170]

wiki says you're wrong:

Uniform Tire Quality Grading - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Traction grades, from highest to lowest, are AA, A, B and C.
They represent the tire's ability to stop on wet pavement as measured under controlled conditions on specified government test surfaces of asphalt and concrete.
The testing does not take into account cornering, hydroplaning, acceleration or stopping on a dry surface.


So back to my oringal question:
Why does the CrossClimate2 handle so well in rain yet only have a Traction B rating?

I'll answer your question directly

CrossClimate2 - Treadware 640 UTQGS A for temperature and UTQGS B for traction on a dry surface.
Michelin Primacy Tour A/S - Treadware 540 UTQGS A for temperature and UTQGS A for on a dry surface.

Why the difference in traction ratings between these 2 all season tires?
These Tires serve different purposes and the CrossClimate is designed for improved snow and ice traction over Primacy.
Block designed to handle snow typically sacrifice a bit of dry grip traction. Same holds true with wet perfromance. In the case of the Cross Climate, you gain a sizeable advantage in snow traction over the Primacy at the expense of some dry traction that results in the lowered traction rating.

Try and find the UTQGS rating for a Snow tire such as a Blizzak.
Tell me what you find (You will find nothing since Snow tires are excluded from those ratings)

Summary - Dry grip was sacrificed in the tread design to improve performance in bad weather. Dry grip in artificial tightly controlled conditions.
That's why it is called "Crossclimate"

 

[pauldun170]

A crossclimate 2 is good tire for real weather where you get manly seasons.
A Primacy is a better tire for those who get little wussy seasons.

Michelin was able to get the Primacy to due better in the UTQS test because they didn't have the design requirements on the primacy to handle manly weather.

 

[JEDI]

I'll answer your question directly

CrossClimate2 - Treadware 640 UTQGS A for temperature and UTQGS B for traction on a dry surface.
Michelin Primacy Tour A/S - Treadware 540 UTQGS A for temperature and UTQGS A for on a dry surface.

Why the difference in traction ratings between these 2 all season tires?
These Tires serve different purposes and the CrossClimate is designed for improved snow and ice traction over Primacy.
Block designed to handle snow typically sacrifice a bit of dry grip traction. Same holds true with wet perfromance. In the case of the Cross Climate, you gain a sizeable advantage in snow traction over the Primacy at the expense of some dry traction that results in the lowered traction rating.

Try and find the UTQGS rating for a Snow tire such as a Blizzak.
Tell me what you find (You will find nothing since Snow tires are excluded from those ratings)

Summary - Dry grip was sacrificed in the tread design to improve performance in bad weather. Dry grip in artificial tightly controlled conditions.
That's why it is called "Crossclimate"

wait.. you said traction for dry conditions?!
but the wiki says the Traction rating is for wet conditions???

also, if it's only for dry, how much worse can Traction B be compared to 'A' if i'm not going more than 10mph over the speed limit?

 

[pauldun170]

wait.. you said traction for dry conditions?!
but the wiki says the Traction rating is for wet conditions???

also, if it's only for dry, how much worse can Traction B be compared to 'A' if i'm not going more than 10mph over the speed limit?

The important bit is the their tread pattern for snow capability and the impact it has on traction. Most notably the lack of a center channel tread which may lead to the lack of steering responsiveness some people report
That's why Primacy's do better than the CrossClimate2 in UTQGS testing

If I have incorrect info on the UTQSGS procedure it's probably from me just skimming. I didn't bother review the exact test procedure itself because it's beside the point.

 

[pauldun170]

Now you got me curious on the whole UTQGS thing..

Poking around

Since manufacturers are expected to test their own tires, those test results can be skewed due to testing limitations and requirements. In fact, each manufacturer chooses their own baseline (Course Monitoring Tire (CMT)) tire against which they conduct their tests.

Understanding UTQG and its Limitations - Les Schwab

Understand the Uniform Tire Quality Grade Standards (UTQG) and what these tests can mean to you.

www.lesschwab.com

That rating grades the tire’s coefficient of friction with a locked-up tire, traveling 40 mph on a wet surface. A situation that used to happen in the days before anti-lock brakes when the driver would slam on the brakes in a panicked braking situation, essentially locking up the wheel and skidding to a stop. It was more a test of the tire’s materials than it was of the tire’s tread pattern since it was only testing a non-rolling tire. Back in those days, this was useful information about a tire. With the anti-lock braking systems in today’s modern cars, that rating is now antiquated and meaningless since tires are no longer subjected to those conditions. ABS prevents the tires from locking up, even when you push the brake pedal to the floor.

Michelin Cross Climate

⋯ The drive up is always shaded and gets very slick with rain, Please report us back on this with your new Michelin CrossClimate² which has “640 B A” UTQG as Michelin has given the poor “B” rating on (wet) traction for the tire.

mazdas247.com

So the question becomes, why do you care about the wet performance of a locked-up tired on a wet road?
Does your car not have ABS?


Note: The Defender has a traction rating of A

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=270

 

[JEDI]

Now you got me curious on the whole UTQGS thing..

So the question becomes, why do you care about the wet performance of a locked-up tired on a wet road?
Does your car not have ABS?

Note: The Defender has a traction rating of A

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=270

ok, the wet traction rating is outdated and only applies to cars without antilock brakes.
and all cars made after 2013 are required to have anti-lock brakes by law.

so doesnt apply to my 2015 car.
good to know to ignore the traction rating for future tires.

sidenote:
my old Michelin tires gave me 42mpg.
the crossclimate2 is only giving me 34 mpg.
30% drop.

or do tires near end of useable life give better mpg?

forgot which Michelin tire i had but it was at the top of TireRack's ratings when i bought them ~4yrs ago.

but dont know which category those tires were in... Touring, grand touring, or regular?
(i know it wasnt the Defender.)

 

[pauldun170]

ok, the wet traction rating is outdated and only applies to cars without antilock brakes.
and all cars made after 2013 are required to have anti-lock brakes by law.

so doesnt apply to my 2015 car.
good to know to ignore the traction rating for future tires.

sidenote:
my old Michelin tires gave me 42mpg.
the crossclimate2 is only giving me 34 mpg.
30% drop.

or do tires near end of useable life give better mpg?

forgot which Michelin tire i had but it was at the top of TireRack's ratings when i bought them ~4yrs ago.

but dont know which category those tires were in... Touring, grand touring, or regular?
(i know it wasnt the Defender.)

That's a huge drop. Bit extreme for going from one tire to another unless the old ones were over inflated and the new ones are under inflated

 

[JEDI]

That's a huge drop. Bit extreme for going from one tire to another unless the old ones were over inflated and the new ones are under inflated

old tires i did sidewall max of 44psi.
crossclimate2's sidewall max is like 55psi but i put it at 44psi. maybe i'll do 55psi and see ?

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

old tires i did sidewall max of 44psi.
crossclimate2's sidewall max is like 55psi but i put it at 44psi. maybe i'll do 55psi and see ?

Bruh, inflate them to the pressure specified on your driver door frame sticker by your vehicle manufacturer, not the sidewall pressure.

 

[Ajay]

I used to be a Michelin fan. Then I switched to Pirelli - but only the more expensive ones are good. This has nothing to do with this thread, but

 

[pauldun170]

old tires i did sidewall max of 44psi.
crossclimate2's sidewall max is like 55psi but i put it at 44psi. maybe i'll do 55psi and see ?

Never do that.
You are not supposed to do that with automotive tires
Always go by what your car specifies. Check your door jam or your owners manual.

 

[JEDI]

Never do that.
You are not supposed to do that with automotive tires
Always go by what your car specifies. Check your door jam or your owners manual.

why not?
did that the entire 70k miles of my old Michelin tires. it's only rated for 60k.
so no wear effects and i got better mpg to boot.

 

[pauldun170]

why not?
did that the entire 70k miles of my old Michelin tires. it's only rated for 60k.
so no wear effects and i got better mpg to boot.

Ignorance and luck is no way to go through life.

I'm going to save myself some typing and do a copy paste

The number on the tire sidewall is a maximum “burst” limit, never to be exceeded.
The right pressure is that pressure that produces the correct tire “footprint” on the pavement, given the weight of the car. The auto maker knows that; the tire manufacturer does not.

Summary: The number on the tire is the maximum pressure a tire can be inflated under ANY circumstances.
The number provided by the manufacturer of your car is what's applicable to your specific vehicle.

Read your owner manual.

 

[Meghan54]

ok, the wet traction rating is outdated and only applies to cars without antilock brakes.
and all cars made after 2013 are required to have anti-lock brakes by law.

so doesnt apply to my 2015 car.
good to know to ignore the traction rating for future tires.

sidenote:
my old Michelin tires gave me 42mpg.
the crossclimate2 is only giving me 34 mpg.
30% drop.

or do tires near end of useable life give better mpg?

forgot which Michelin tire i had but it was at the top of TireRack's ratings when i bought them ~4yrs ago.

but dont know which category those tires were in... Touring, grand touring, or regular?
(i know it wasnt the Defender.)

Actually, the bolded part is nonsense.

 

[Viper GTS]

why not?
did that the entire 70k miles of my old Michelin tires. it's only rated for 60k.
so no wear effects and i got better mpg to boot.

Over inflating tires increases susceptibility to damage, reduces your available grip, and murders ride quality. You may not notice it if you drive a slow/soft car and have the good fortune to never need to panic stop, but the difference can be substantial:

(PDF) Influence of tire pressure on the braking distance when driving on snow and asphalt

PDF | This paper studies the influence of different tire pressure values on the braking distance of a passenger vehicle when driving on different road... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Use the pressure recommended by your vehicle, it's there for a reason. Saving 15% on tire costs over 60-70k miles is essentially nothing, it's the wrong place to be cheap.

Viper GTS

 

[JEDI]

Over inflating tires increases susceptibility to damage, reduces your available grip, and murders ride quality. You may not notice it if you drive a slow/soft car and have the good fortune to never need to panic stop, but the difference can be substantial:

(PDF) Influence of tire pressure on the braking distance when driving on snow and asphalt

PDF | This paper studies the influence of different tire pressure values on the braking distance of a passenger vehicle when driving on different road... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Use the pressure recommended by your vehicle, it's there for a reason. Saving 15% on tire costs over 60-70k miles is essentially nothing, it's the wrong place to be cheap.

Viper GTS

from the paper:
wtf is 1.5 and 2.4 bars of tire pressure?!

also, my ~50psi tire pressure is in fall.
so in winter, it will be lower because of lower temps. (could also explain my lower mpg in winter.)

so i am essentially lowering my tire pressure in winter, thus increasing braking effectiveness in winter based on the paper

 

[Brainonska511]

from the paper:
wtf is 1.5 and 2.4 bars of tire pressure?!

also, my ~50psi tire pressure is in fall.
so in winter, it will be lower because of lower temps. (could also explain my lower mpg in winter.)

so i am essentially lowering my tire pressure in winter, thus increasing braking effectiveness in winter based on the paper

Why not just inflate to what your car says to inflate to, and just check every month? You don't need to overinflate in the fall to cover you through the winter... You can just inflate to the required pressure, and then adjust as needed when you do your monthly check.