Mich. ban on race in college admissions illegal

[mchammer187]

EDIT repost kinda just delete similar article here http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2175565

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-07-01-Michigan-race-gender-college-admission_n.htm

DETROIT -- A federal appeals court Friday struck down a state referendum that banned affirmative action in college admissions, employment and contracting, setting up another Supreme Court showdown on the issue.

"It's a tremendous victory," Detroit lawyer George Washington said shortly after a U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals panel ruled in a 2-1 decision that Proposal 2 was unconstitutional.

"Affirmative action is now legal in college admissions in Michigan and that means thousands of black, Latin and native American students who would have been excluded from our best undergraduate and graduate programs will now be admitted," Washington said.

The Michigan Attorney General's Office had no immediate comment, but Washington, who represents a coalition of organizations that fought the 2006 ballot proposal, said he expects the state to ask the entire U.S. 6th Circuit to review the decision and, if that fails, ask the Supreme Court to take up the issue.

Jennifer Gratz, who led the campaign for passage of Proposal 2 following the conclusion of her own lawsuit against the University of Michigan for using race-based admissions, said Friday she had not yet reviewed the appeals court decision.

But an appeal is almost certain, she said, and "I can't imagine this ruling will stand."

 

[Lithium381]

just like our police and fire fighting forces..... may the best man win..... oh i mean the top two scorers and if they're not black, take the top two black people that didn't make the cut because their skills weren't up to par

 

[a777pilot]

I certainly hope that if those judges get sick their doctor is only a doctor by the fact of the color of their skin.

Good job there Judges..............................................not.

 

[HendrixFan]

I certainly hope that if those judges get sick their doctor is only a doctor by the fact of the color of their skin.

Good job there Judges..............................................not.

Yes, only white doctors please!

 

[classy]

Repost

Lock it Up

 

[spidey07]

Repost

Lock it Up

Merge it up.

 

[a777pilot]

Yes, only white doctors please!

I did NOT say that, now did I?

I would think that any rational being would want their doctor, lawyer, pilot, etc. in those positions based solely on merit. I could be wrong.

 

[HendrixFan]

I did NOT say that, now did I?

I would think that any rational being would want their doctor, lawyer, pilot, etc. in those positions based solely on merit. I could be wrong.

What is merit? How do you define it?

Are you telling me that you think a poor black kid from the inner city who's mother was a junkie and never met his father and had a brother killed in a drive by but worked hard and studied and went to school everyday despite attending an innercity school that was run down and had ancient lab equipment to work with and didn't offer many higher level courses but still gave it his all and was able to scrape by and earn an SAT score that was just 50 points lower than a suburban child born in a two parent household where the mother didn't have to work and was able to spend plenty of quality time with him, all while sending him to numerous summer camps for fun and education, hire tutors to help assist with homework and have the best equipment around and top notch classes that earned dual credit for college while at their nice private school and was able to swing 50 more points on his SATs than the black kid; really doesn't merit the opportunity to get accepted to a school?

Is that solely based on merit to you?

 

[a777pilot]

What is merit? How do you define it?

Are you telling me that you think a poor black kid from the inner city who's mother was a junkie and never met his father and had a brother killed in a drive by but worked hard and studied and went to school everyday despite attending an innercity school that was run down and had ancient lab equipment to work with and didn't offer many higher level courses but still gave it his all and was able to scrape by and earn an SAT score that was just 50 points lower than a suburban child born in a two parent household where the mother didn't have to work and was able to spend plenty of quality time with him, all while sending him to numerous summer camps for fun and education, hire tutors to help assist with homework and have the best equipment around and top notch classes that earned dual credit for college while at their nice private school and was able to swing 50 more points on his SATs than the black kid; really doesn't merit the opportunity to get accepted to a school?

Is that solely based on merit to you?

Merit. Not skin color.

 

[ProfJohn]

If the difference was 50 points I'd give it to the black kid.
But I think the college admissions staff should have a piece of paper with all the stats without a name, race or sex attached. Just a meaningless number given to each student.


BTW in you scenario there are ways to determine which kid should get the chance beyond just color of skin.

The kid who went to fancy school will most likely finish lower in his class ranking and his SAT score will be lower than kids in his school too (not sure if that is reported)

While the poor kid will rank higher in his class and his SAT score will rank higher too.

 

[HendrixFan]

If you think AA for college entry is done on a checkmark basis for skin color, you are wrong. In the other thread you do have a point that throwing in people who are unable to perform at the college level won't fix anything. Colleges aren't interested in failing out students (it hurts their rankings), certainly not minorities. The questions you see on most college admissions these days are very much pointed towards determining those who overcome adversity, even if their scores aren't as high as other prospective students.

I helped a friend fill out her app a couple years back and one of the questions she was given the obvious opportunity to talk about growing up as a child born in the US to an illegal parent. Absent of any race checkboxes, the questions themselves lend heavily to determining such things. Colleges aren't looking for quotas though, they don't just find the top 500 SAT scores amongst blacks and call it a day.

I don't know your age Prof, but check out some recent admissions apps and the essay questions they have. Most schools have them online to check out. You'd see that there is plenty beyond skin color to determine which kids get in.

 

[HendrixFan]

Merit. Not skin color.

Which of those two has "merit"?

 

[gotsmack]

What is merit? How do you define it?

Are you telling me that you think a poor black kid from the inner city who's mother was a junkie and never met his father and had a brother killed in a drive by but worked hard and studied and went to school everyday despite attending an innercity school that was run down and had ancient lab equipment to work with and didn't offer many higher level courses but still gave it his all and was able to scrape by and earn an SAT score that was just 50 points lower than a suburban child born in a two parent household where the mother didn't have to work and was able to spend plenty of quality time with him, all while sending him to numerous summer camps for fun and education, hire tutors to help assist with homework and have the best equipment around and top notch classes that earned dual credit for college while at their nice private school and was able to swing 50 more points on his SATs than the black kid; really doesn't merit the opportunity to get accepted to a school?

Is that solely based on merit to you?

Than do it on socio economic status.

Guess what? They won't do that because it'll just give poor asians an edge. I don;t want to hear your sob story because there are lots of poor asians in inner cities with both parents that don't speak much english and both parents are at work all day. Lots of these kids test very well.

If you don't test well, maybe you should learn a trade. Because guess what? College is one test after another.

Letting in unqualified people just dumbs down the education system.

 

[woolfe9999]

I don't mind a college admissions office taking into consideration factors other than raw scores and grades, like overcoming disadvantages, and having those factors compensate for relatively modest statistical deficits. That, however, is not about race per se. A white kid in a given case could have been disadvantaged where the black kid was not. It may so happen that acknowledging those variables will boost minority admissions, but that is far different than a quota based affirmative action system which I think has no place in any system of college admissions, hiring, or anything else. Or even a system that isn't a quota per se but makes "race" in and of itself a plus factor, i.e. equivalent of x SAT points, which is again, not something that has any place. The focus should be on overcoming the disadvantage and the entire process should be color blind.

 

[JSt0rm]

What is merit? How do you define it?

Are you telling me that you think a poor black kid from the inner city who's mother was a junkie and never met his father and had a brother killed in a drive by but worked hard and studied and went to school everyday despite attending an innercity school that was run down and had ancient lab equipment to work with and didn't offer many higher level courses but still gave it his all and was able to scrape by and earn an SAT score that was just 50 points lower than a suburban child born in a two parent household where the mother didn't have to work and was able to spend plenty of quality time with him, all while sending him to numerous summer camps for fun and education, hire tutors to help assist with homework and have the best equipment around and top notch classes that earned dual credit for college while at their nice private school and was able to swing 50 more points on his SATs than the black kid; really doesn't merit the opportunity to get accepted to a school?

Is that solely based on merit to you?

^^ ownage

 

[fskimospy]

If you think AA for college entry is done on a checkmark basis for skin color, you are wrong. In the other thread you do have a point that throwing in people who are unable to perform at the college level won't fix anything. Colleges aren't interested in failing out students (it hurts their rankings), certainly not minorities. The questions you see on most college admissions these days are very much pointed towards determining those who overcome adversity, even if their scores aren't as high as other prospective students.

I helped a friend fill out her app a couple years back and one of the questions she was given the obvious opportunity to talk about growing up as a child born in the US to an illegal parent. Absent of any race checkboxes, the questions themselves lend heavily to determining such things. Colleges aren't looking for quotas though, they don't just find the top 500 SAT scores amongst blacks and call it a day.

I don't know your age Prof, but check out some recent admissions apps and the essay questions they have. Most schools have them online to check out. You'd see that there is plenty beyond skin color to determine which kids get in.

Pure, unadulterated pwnage.

 

[shortylickens]

Yes, only white doctors please!

Logic fail there buddy, just like affirmative action.

 

[Pulsar]

If you think AA for college entry is done on a checkmark basis for skin color, you are wrong. In the other thread you do have a point that throwing in people who are unable to perform at the college level won't fix anything. Colleges aren't interested in failing out students (it hurts their rankings), certainly not minorities. The questions you see on most college admissions these days are very much pointed towards determining those who overcome adversity, even if their scores aren't as high as other prospective students.

I helped a friend fill out her app a couple years back and one of the questions she was given the obvious opportunity to talk about growing up as a child born in the US to an illegal parent. Absent of any race checkboxes, the questions themselves lend heavily to determining such things. Colleges aren't looking for quotas though, they don't just find the top 500 SAT scores amongst blacks and call it a day.

I don't know your age Prof, but check out some recent admissions apps and the essay questions they have. Most schools have them online to check out. You'd see that there is plenty beyond skin color to determine which kids get in.

Hey buddy, newsflash for ya, but there are poor white kids, latino kids, asian kids, and every other type of too.

Being economically depressed and in a crappy school STILL has nothing to do with being black, white, yellow or red. Analogy fail. Post fail. Concept fail. You fail.

There is absolutely NO reason to take the color of people's skin into any type of consideration.

 

[Pulsar]

^^ ownage

Typical failure by JStorm. Being finanacially disadvantaged has nothing to do with color. Period.

 

[Double Trouble]

Pure, unadulterated pwnage.

More like pure unadulterated bullshit.

Merit can be defined in many ways, and we can discuss all day what the best ways are to do it. However, your race in and of itself should NEVER factor into merit since you can't control it or change it.

This will certainly get appealed, and hopefully tossed.

Racism in the hope of reversing the effects of past racism is not acceptable, and shouldn't be to anyone who isn't a racist.

 

[jackstar7]

Introduce me to your friends who aren't racist. I'd be excited to meet them.

 

[HendrixFan]

I agree that a white kid growing up in a low income environment is at a huge disadvantage versus anyone else. A black kid growing up in a low income environment is at an even worse disadvantage though.

I don't know of any AA policies at any university that are done on a quota basis, or neglect other factors. Being black is still a disadvantage in society, certainly here in the south.

I have met plenty of huge football fans and boosters for the University of Texas. I know the guy who donated the Earl Campbell statue a few years ago. These guys have tons of money and leave and breathe Texas football. They follow it like you wouldn't believe. Nearly all of them, despite loving everything Texas football, which is at least 85% black, would not be okay with their daughter dating a black guy. Does that make them racist? They certainly don't hate blacks, so what is it?

Blacks are not looked at the same, nor are they treated the same. These barriers do not give equal opportunity to blacks. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

 

[HendrixFan]

Typical failure by JStorm. Being finanacially disadvantaged has nothing to do with color. Period.

Why is the median household income lower for blacks than any other race? Significantly lower?

Why was Clinton referred to as the "first black president" by many as median household income for blacks went up 25% during his 8 years (though still a far cry less than the overall median)?

What is the correlation between skin color and being financially disadvantaged, because there is one even if you pretend it doesn't exist?

 

[JockoJohnson]

So it sounds like America is clearly racist. There can be no possible other reason for blacks to have a lower household median income at all....but where are all the lawsuits against the racist overlords? I mean, the ACLU and NAACP and Al Sharpton would be more than happy to jump in the spotlight on any one of these racist cases where blacks are not hired or paid less.

 

[HendrixFan]

So it sounds like America is clearly racist. There can be no possible other reason for blacks to have a lower household median income at all....but where are all the lawsuits against the racist overlords? I mean, the ACLU and NAACP and Al Sharpton would be more than happy to jump in the spotlight on any one of these racist cases where blacks are not hired or paid less.

What is the answer then? It is no statistical anomaly when you are dealing with millions of people and the median income is so much lower. Why is it lower?

In this country, we enslaved blacks for centuries. We legally declared them to be less of a person (3/5ths). When they were freed we continued with Jim Crow laws for another hundred years. You can't have all that happen then just flip a switch in the 60s and say we are all even.

The problem is much bigger, deeper and more ingrained into the fabric of our society than Tyrone from down the block getting paid less per hour for the same job as Kevin. Systemic issues have created a society in which blacks do not have the same opportunities as everyone else. It isn't overt racism, it is just lingering remnants from hundreds of years of state sponsored oppression that we haven't gotten out of our collective system.