Mexifornia. The failure of open immigration.

[marincounty]

Not a bad article, considering the source. This guy is a neocon fool who works for the
(Herbert) Hoover Institution.
I did, however, find some inconsistencies.

Mexifornia came out during the ultimately successful campaign to recall California governor Gray Davis in autumn 2003. A popular public gripe was that the embattled governor had appeased both employers and the more radical Hispanic politicians of the California legislature on illegal immigration. And indeed Davis had signed legislation allowing driver?s licenses for illegal aliens that both houses of state government had passed. So it was no wonder that the book sometimes found its way into both the low and high forms of the political debate.

While politicians and academics assured the public that illegal aliens came here only to work and would quickly assume an American identity, the public?s own ad hoc and empirical observations of vast problems with crime, illiteracy, and illegitimacy have now been confirmed by hard data. Ever since the influx of illegals into our quiet valley became a flood, I have had five drivers leave the road, plow into my vineyard, and abandon their cars, without evidence of either registration or insurance. On each occasion, I have seen them simply walk or run away from the scene of thousands of dollars in damage. Similarly, an intoxicated driver who ran a stop sign hit my car broadside and then fled the scene.

Complete BS. Governor Davis was a decent man and a decent governor, he was recalled by group of rich Republicans that bankrolled it and then Arnold took advantage of his celebrity to hoodwink the easily misled voters.
I have lived in California since 1960 and was in favor of drivers licenses for illegals.
At least then we have their photograph, fingerprint, and a supposed address.
But no, Arnold and the Republicans were against that, and now an illegal can't get a license, or registration, or INSURANCE! This is costing the govt lots of revenue, and is costing California citizens more as the author points out.
The last time I checked, the border was a federal resonsibility. Republicans have been in charge for 18 of the last 26 years in Washington, and they have done nothing to stop the flow of illegals. You can blame Bill Clinton all you want, but at least he busted a few employers. The Bush regime record on this is horrible, complete failure to prosecute employers or stop the flow of illegals, and Reagan was worse.
What Mr. Hanson is finally beginning to realize is the dual right-wing strategies of open borders and misguided wars overseas has created an America under siege. The neocon elite will have abandoned the rest of America while they retreat to their gated communites and armored limos. I think the reason Mr. Hanson is upset is that he can't afford to move into a gated community.

 

[Rainsford]

Why do I care? Seriously, why in the flying hell do I care whether or not there are a lot of Mexicans living here? The whole anti-illegal immigration argument starts from that point, that a lot of Mexicans is a bad thing, but seems to do very little to actually say WHY that's a bad thing. If you object to the charge of racism (an unfair charge, I might add), consider that you're essentially arguing that illegal immigration is bad because we have a lot of Mexicans here. Why THAT is bad usually only goes without saying if you happen to think America belongs to white Europeans (an argument I've actually heard more than once), an inherently racist position to take.

Now I don't happen to think you're all a bunch of racists, but maybe you should explain just why the "threat" of a bunch of Mexicans pisses you off so much. People complain about multi-lingual documents, and I find myself wondering why I care as long as they are still in English as well. What harm does it do me for the airport announcements in English to be followed by the Spanish version? You might suggest I'm picking trivial examples, but they still manage to envoke the hatred of a huge segment of the American population...and I find myself asking "why?".

 

[wetech]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Yes, and calling everyone that disagrees with illegal immigration racist is a very mature argument. That is a very tired tactic, most of us opposed to illegal immigration could care less what the color of their skin is. You need to get a better argument and give up the strawman.

QFT. I also like how putting quotes around illegal somehow makes it no longer a crime.

 

[imported_dna]

Rainsford, did you actually read the article?

Fact is that the number of Mexicans here is indeed ridicilous -- there are so many illegal Mexicans, that are even hired as cheap help by illegal Chinese and others from Asia. That is why they get all the attention.

Now, if you consider it a normal thing for a country to export its poor, then fine, why not let a few tens of millions of Chinese to come over, and some tens of millions from Africa? I'm sure the USA can afford it.

I'd say it became an obvious "threat" when they took to the streets to demand legalization. Waving Mexican flags and all that doesn't exactly inspires much confidence.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dna
Rainsford, did you actually read the article?

Fact is that the number of Mexicans here is indeed ridicilous -- there are so many illegal Mexicans, that are even hired as cheap help by illegal Chinese and others from Asia. That is why they get all the attention.

Now, if you consider it a normal thing for a country to export its poor, then fine, why not let a few tens of millions of Chinese to come over, and some tens of millions from Africa? I'm sure the USA can afford it.

I'd say it became an obvious "threat" when they took to the streets to demand legalization. Waving Mexican flags and all that doesn't exactly inspires much confidence.

This is EXACTLY the kind of non-argument I'm talking about. You say " [the] fact is that the number of Mexicans here is indeed ridicilous" like the reason that's bad is self-evident. I'm saying that it's not, and that you guys NEVER seem to offer a reason why "so many illegal Mexicans" is something I should get my panties in the world-class bunch you guys have managed, much less even care about it at all.

 

[imported_dna]

Ehmm..... didn't you read the article? Haven't heard others talking about it?
Someone has to be paying for hospitals and schools, no?

Unless you'd like to argue that Mexico exporting all of its illiterate poors is a good thing for the USA?

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
California should just give the lower half of that state to Mexico and build a wall starting at Fresno and call it a wash.

Wow you guys give up easy...

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: jrenz

Originally posted by: Fern
Anybody else notice Steeplerot's absence?

I think he/she got a vacation fromt he mods not too long ago.

Fern

It's about time if he did... unfortunately, any ban is too short a ban for him.

Enjoy the quiet while its here

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Why do I care? Seriously, why in the flying hell do I care whether or not there are a lot of Mexicans living here? The whole anti-illegal immigration argument starts from that point, that a lot of Mexicans is a bad thing, but seems to do very little to actually say WHY that's a bad thing. If you object to the charge of racism (an unfair charge, I might add), consider that you're essentially arguing that illegal immigration is bad because we have a lot of Mexicans here. Why THAT is bad usually only goes without saying if you happen to think America belongs to white Europeans (an argument I've actually heard more than once), an inherently racist position to take.

Now I don't happen to think you're all a bunch of racists, but maybe you should explain just why the "threat" of a bunch of Mexicans pisses you off so much. People complain about multi-lingual documents, and I find myself wondering why I care as long as they are still in English as well. What harm does it do me for the airport announcements in English to be followed by the Spanish version? You might suggest I'm picking trivial examples, but they still manage to envoke the hatred of a huge segment of the American population...and I find myself asking "why?".

Whats it like to live in a fantasy world? Honestly. I want to know.....

 

[ayabe]

Thanks Specop that's probably the best article I've read summarizing what the real issues are and why something has to be done..

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

just because you are 'illegal' does not mean that you came here illegally. the whole problem with this issue is that you associate all illegals as mexicans who ran across the border and that is just plain wrong. i have many 'illegal' friends who arrived here legally, work 40 hours a week, pay taxes and do not milk the govt for anything, they just happened to have different situations where there status has expired. i agree with george bush on this issue (the only issue i agree with him on).

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

I don't associate with criminals, thank you.

and you are a saint who has never broken the law right? always drive the speed limit right?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Why do I care? Seriously, why in the flying hell do I care whether or not there are a lot of Mexicans living here? The whole anti-illegal immigration argument starts from that point, that a lot of Mexicans is a bad thing, but seems to do very little to actually say WHY that's a bad thing. If you object to the charge of racism (an unfair charge, I might add), consider that you're essentially arguing that illegal immigration is bad because we have a lot of Mexicans here. Why THAT is bad usually only goes without saying if you happen to think America belongs to white Europeans (an argument I've actually heard more than once), an inherently racist position to take.

Now I don't happen to think you're all a bunch of racists, but maybe you should explain just why the "threat" of a bunch of Mexicans pisses you off so much. People complain about multi-lingual documents, and I find myself wondering why I care as long as they are still in English as well. What harm does it do me for the airport announcements in English to be followed by the Spanish version? You might suggest I'm picking trivial examples, but they still manage to envoke the hatred of a huge segment of the American population...and I find myself asking "why?".

If the issue was racial, then why aren't these racists demanding we stop allowing Asians or Africans to immigrate? The only issue is Mexicans, and it's because it's the only 3rd world country we share a massive open border with. I didn't think the idea was difficult to grasp, but apparently you don't get it.

People aren't against immigration. We're against massive, unchecked, illegal immigration. And the only real source of that is Mexico. Stop being so dense.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

I don't associate with criminals, thank you.

and you are a saint who has never broken the law right? always drive the speed limit right?

Going over the speed limit and entering a country illegally are a little bit different don't ya think?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

just because you are 'illegal' does not mean that you came here illegally. the whole problem with this issue is that you associate all illegals as mexicans who ran across the border and that is just plain wrong. i have many 'illegal' friends who arrived here legally, work 40 hours a week, pay taxes and do not milk the govt for anything, they just happened to have different situations where there status has expired. i agree with george bush on this issue (the only issue i agree with him on).

If they only had a temporary visa, then why did they stay here beyond their welcome? If they want to become citizens, apply for citizenship and stay here legally. If you want to argue that obtaining citizenship is too hard for honest hard working foreigners, then make that argument. I might even agree. But don't advocate illegal immigration as the answer. No country on earth allows millions of people to flood across their borders unchecked, and for good reason.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

the problem we face with immigration is similar to others. Too many people want to turn the other cheek because facing a problem means having to make a decision.

They don't want to make a decision because too many weak minded fools are worried someone will be upset at them and thereby ruin their stupid illusion of how the world is supposed to be.

Find them, deport them. If they come back deport them again. Fine to hell and back anyone who employs them or sells shelter to them. What part of illegal don't these people understand?


As for the become a citizen by being born here, toss that too. Make the requirement that one of the parnets has to be a legal citizen first.


Giving licenses to illegals doesn't insure anything. It only shows a willingness to ignore a problem because solving it would not be fun

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

just because you are 'illegal' does not mean that you came here illegally. the whole problem with this issue is that you associate all illegals as mexicans who ran across the border and that is just plain wrong. i have many 'illegal' friends who arrived here legally, work 40 hours a week, pay taxes and do not milk the govt for anything, they just happened to have different situations where there status has expired. i agree with george bush on this issue (the only issue i agree with him on).

Do you honestly think that the millions of mexicans here illegally are all just victims of expired work visas? LOL

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

just because you are 'illegal' does not mean that you came here illegally. the whole problem with this issue is that you associate all illegals as mexicans who ran across the border and that is just plain wrong. i have many 'illegal' friends who arrived here legally, work 40 hours a week, pay taxes and do not milk the govt for anything, they just happened to have different situations where there status has expired. i agree with george bush on this issue (the only issue i agree with him on).

If they only had a temporary visa, then why did they stay here beyond their welcome? If they want to become citizens, apply for citizenship and stay here legally. If you want to argue that obtaining citizenship is too hard for honest hard working foreigners, then make that argument. I might even agree. But don't advocate illegal immigration as the answer. No country on earth allows millions of people to flood across their borders unchecked, and for good reason.

i never advocated illegal immigration. we all agree that our system is broken and needs to be fixed. i just dont agree with the 'build a giant wall' scenerio that seems so popular and ends up breeding hate (i will use that instead of racism to be fair). it also seems that most americans think all 'illegals' are mexican border jumpers (as JS50 has shown in the post above this one). i have experience in dealing with the INS/dept of homeland security and know first hand how broken the system is. there are quite a few 'illegals' that come here on either a work or school visa but it is very easy to have your status change for various reasons and you can not just apply for citizenship. we need a comprehensive solution like bush has proposed.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: JD50
Do you honestly think that the millions of mexicans here illegally are all just victims of expired work visas? LOL

i never mentioned mexicans

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: alien42
congratulations on your racist success

Blow it out your corn hole. Of course organizations like the Klan are going to try and use this issue as a recruiting tool for those simple minded enough to consider joining an organization like theirs. Anything can be spun to match a given agenda. Be careful, your blind ignorance to the hard facts suggests you might make a likely target for their recruiting campaign.

that was a real mature post. how many "illegals" do you know?

Well, living in LA I know a few. Your blatant use of race before argument speaks volumes of your maturity. Ive worked doing concrete with allot of folks who wernt here legit. I made as much as they did. Great for them, not so good for the locals. Whats wrong with being pro American citizen? Isnt that who we are? Isnt government what we implement to protect us through laws to govern by, decided by those who elect the government, you know.... citizens?

I dont care what color-creed you are, just come here legitimately. Thats all I ask. Have some respect...

just because you are 'illegal' does not mean that you came here illegally. the whole problem with this issue is that you associate all illegals as mexicans who ran across the border and that is just plain wrong. i have many 'illegal' friends who arrived here legally, work 40 hours a week, pay taxes and do not milk the govt for anything, they just happened to have different situations where there status has expired. i agree with george bush on this issue (the only issue i agree with him on).

If they only had a temporary visa, then why did they stay here beyond their welcome? If they want to become citizens, apply for citizenship and stay here legally. If you want to argue that obtaining citizenship is too hard for honest hard working foreigners, then make that argument. I might even agree. But don't advocate illegal immigration as the answer. No country on earth allows millions of people to flood across their borders unchecked, and for good reason.

i never advocated illegal immigration. we all agree that our system is broken and needs to be fixed. i just dont agree with the 'build a giant wall' scenerio that seems so popular and ends up breeding hate (i will use that instead of racism to be fair). it also seems that most americans think all 'illegals' are mexican border jumpers (as JS50 has shown in the post above this one). i have experience in dealing with the INS/dept of homeland security and know first hand how broken the system is. there are quite a few 'illegals' that come here on either a work or school visa but it is very easy to have your status change for various reasons and you can not just apply for citizenship.

I'd like to see something proving that most illegal immigrants are not border jumpers. I don't think that anyone believes that ALL illegal immigrants are border jumpers, but you'd have to be dillusional to think that most of the millions of illegal immigrants are here on expired work visas.

 

[alien42]

jd50, there are plenty of 'illegals' from europe, south america, africa, asia, etc that did initially come to this country legally.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: alien42
jd50, there are plenty of 'illegals' from europe, south america, africa, asia, etc that did initially come to this country legally.

I understand that, they are not the problem. The vast majority of the illegal immigrants that we have in this country are mexican border jumpers, they are the problem. I have yet to see a bunch of asians and europeans standing in front of my local home depot looking for work. I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[imported_dna]

What's all the fuss about legal-turned-illegal?

If you came here on a student or work visa, and stayed beyond the allowed date then you are in violation of the rules/law.

Furthermore, getting a work or student visa does not imply that you'll get citizenship sometime down the road.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: alien42
jd50, there are plenty of 'illegals' from europe, south america, africa, asia, etc that did initially come to this country legally.

I understand that, they are not the problem. The vast majority of the illegal immigrants that we have in this country are mexican border jumpers, they are the problem. I have yet to see a bunch of asians and europeans standing in front of my local home depot looking for work. I'm not sure what your point is.

you just proved my point i do not believe that you can clump all 'illegals' in the same bunch. i do not consider someone who comes to this country to go to school, work hard and experience the american dream to be a criminal. i would consider someone who is taking advantage of our systems and getting free healthcare and not paying taxes a criminal. the reason you do not 'see' the people i am referring to is that they blend in to our society. an example is one of my best friends is italian and came to the US on a work visa. unfortunately he got screwed by an immigration lawyer who just took his money and ripped him off. then his employer who was sponsoring him also took advantage of him because they had the power to. since then he quit that job and has started his own company, he already owns a house and pays taxes and i would consider him more 'american' then many of the slackers that were born here, yet by the law he is clumped in with all the border jumpers.