You should stop hiding behind the "racism" label to ignore this. Mexican individuals do not represent a "race," they represent a culture. A culture that they bring to this country when they come over and do not assimilate. It is a culture which has led to absolute failure in the modern world where it is indigenous. It is absolutely unacceptable for this country to be guilted by false charges from people like you of racism/intolerance etcetera into allowing a culture such as this to destroy the cultural traits that helped make this country such a desirable place to live. The idea that it's simply "poverty" in a vacuum (usually coupled with the notion that somehow this poverty is our fault and our responsibility, ie, "just give them some money, just let them do whatever they want, come here") is pathetic and destructive, and a temporary non-solution that will NOT solve the problem.
You should stop hiding behind the "racism" label to ignore this. Mexican individuals do not represent a "race," they represent a culture. A culture that they bring to this country when they come over and do not assimilate. It is a culture which has led to absolute failure in the modern world where it is indigenous. It is absolutely unacceptable for this country to be guilted by false charges from people like you of racism/intolerance etcetera into allowing a culture such as this to destroy the cultural traits that helped make this country such a desirable place to live. The idea that it's simply "poverty" in a vacuum (usually coupled with the notion that somehow this poverty is our fault and our responsibility, ie, "just give them some money, just let them do whatever they want, come here") is pathetic and destructive, and a temporary non-solution that will NOT solve the problem.
It's the fact they they thumb there noses at our laws and use our own system against us.[/quote]
Who is they ? Most Hispanic people who come here come to work. You can point to a few bad apples here and there but I can do the same within our own society.
I agree that the border issue needs fixing so that there is a legal way that they can come here and work and be tracked and taxed. I am all for that as it will provide a certain amount of sanity that is needed in the border areas and prevent people from taking advantage of folks looking for any kind of a job and a better life.
I'd suggest you do the same and stop lumping everyone into the same pot. The fact is our economy depends on cheap labor either by jobs being exported aboard or via immigrant workers. A system needs to be put in place that protects our borders while still allowing for and protecting the much needed economic value brought by immigrants. You're reasoning and that of others is strictly based on fear of other races more then the so called border issue.
In the end there are three sides to this debate.
1.) Those who want open borders no matter what the cost.
2.) Those who want controlled borders to manage and know who comes in and out while maintaining the economic reasons and need for a immigrant labor force to survive in a global and competitive market.
3.) Those who want a closed border and no immigrants because they have a fear of being breed out by other races.
Oh and you still have not answered my questions in the prior post.
That is what they said about the Irish, Italians, Chinese, Jews, etc... back in the day. Please show me that Mexicans or any other Hispanic group do not intergrate in our society after the 2nd or 3rd generations. If anything from what I've read and experinced 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic families intergrate and end up being just as productive and succesful as most native born Americans in this country. You can point to poverty stricken areas with 1st generation families all you want but from what I know after the 2nd to 3rd generation they are no less American or productive then any other group that has come to this country.
Lets be honest here and say that guys like you don't want whites to be a minorty no matter what the legal residency of whatever the majority ethnic group is in the end. As I said before there are three sides to this debate and unfortunetaly the side which has hate and racism is the one that tends to be the most vocal in the secure border side.
Who is they ? Most Hispanic people who come here come to work. You can point to a few bad apples here and there but I can do the same within our own society.
I agree that the border issue needs fixing so that there is a legal way that they can come here and work and be tracked and taxed. I am all for that as it will provide a certian amount of sanity that is needed in the border areas and prevent people from taking advantage of folks looking for any kind of a job and a better life.
I'd suggest you do the same and stop lumping everyone into the same pot. The fact is our economy depends on cheap labor either by jobs being exported aboard or via immigrant workers. A system needs to be put in place that protects our borders while still allowing for and proctecting the much needed economic value brought by immigrants. You're reasoning and that of others is strictly based on fear of other races more then the so called border issue.
In the end there are three sides to this debate.
1.) Those who want open borders no matter what the cost.
2.) Those who want controled borders to manage and know who comes in and out while maintianing the economic reasons and need for a immigrant labor force to survive in a global and competitve market.
3.) Those who want a closed border and no immigrants because they have a fear of being breed out by other races.
Oh and you still have not answered my questions in the prior post.
[/quote]
Get over yourself already. Our prisons are full of those "few bad examples"
I did answer your question, listen carefully, IT"S NOT A RACE ISSUE!! You want to try and make it one because that's teh only defense you have. Tough tittie, I'm not playing you game.
Our economy depends on cheap labor?? Says who?? LMAO, ever hear of the expression "work smarter, not harder"? Cheap labor is just the easy way out for lack of managment.
[/quote]Get over yourself already. Our prisons are full of those "few bad examples"[/quote]
Again ....So you are sayig that if your friend were beaten up by a group of black guys you'd wouldn't have as big of a problem with it ? That if the plant manager ended up giving that job to a black guy willing to work for less then you then you would not of brought it up as a problem ?
[/quote]Our economy depends on cheap labor?? Says who?? LMAO, ever hear of the expression "work smarter, not harder"? Cheap labor is just the easy way out for lack of managment.[/quote]
How many items can you point out in a major electronic store, clothing store, etc...that were assembled and made in the US ? We are living in a global economy and the days of 100% tarrifs are over. We ethier adapt and change as a nation in pace with the world global economy or we stay stagnate and die.
The jobs I've been refering to in my example are poultry processing jobs in the heart of the country. They can't very well be "outsourced". Why should workers here have to work for a reduced wage caused by illegal workers?
I've already saw this happen in Minnesota (where my wife is from) over the last 10 years. They have a DelMonte plant that used to be a good part time job for college students, the farmers wife, kids who didn't know what they wanted to do yet, etc. Then they got so they wouldn't pay wages and brought in Mexicans to do the work. Crime went up all over the area, especially theft. I've personally spoken to people who had a carload of Mexicans pull into their farm and come up and knock on the door. If you answer it, they ask for some BS directions, if you don't they start going thru the sheds to see what they can steal. Well guess what, the same thing happened to me this summer at my farm.
I'm NOT saying we should ignore the problems stemming from illegal immigration, and there clearly are problems, I think we can all agree on that. But the reason I think this is a racism (or intolerance or whatever, pick your favorite word, there is not a good word for cultural bigot) issue is that people seem to have convinced themselves that the ONLY solution is to keep them all out. The idea that Mexican immigrants cannot or will not assimilate under any circumstances is silly, the fact is that nobody has really tried to make it work. The current situation in areas where Mexican immigrants (of both the legal and illegal variety) tend to collect, especially California, emphasizes exclusion and cultural isolation, THEY see themselves as seperate and WE see them as seperate, nobody is trying to make them part of our community. The idea that their culture holds nothing of value (is an absolute failure, in your words) IS bigotry, and it's not true. There is no uniquely American "cultural trait", our culture has come about because of the various other cultures past generations of immigrants brought to this country...I think Latino culture has just as much to bring to the table as, say, German culture did during the last century. Even if you think their culture is going to destory us, you should realize that the whole idea of a melting pot is that NEITHER culture is the same after coming together, usually something even better emerges. Latino culture, for example, places a lot of value on family and hard work...two things OUR culture could certainly do a better job of.
I never advocated just throwing money at the issue, although poverty IS a big problem for most immigrant groups when the first come to a new country, there are far better solutions than simple handouts...programs that train Mexican immigrants and teach them English would be far better uses of our efforts and money. And I DO admit that there are problems, but I think the reactions from people like you are extremely silly...you are freaking out for no good reason. Their culture is not going to destroy this country, if history is any guide, including yet another group will make us even better. Not that there aren't going to be problems, but they need to be addressed by rational people who can think through the various issues in a reasonable way instead of the fearmongerers screaming INVASION that dominate the debate today.
It's a numbers issue. I never made the claim that Mexican immigrants cannot or will not assimilate under any circumstances. That is a vastly exaggerated strawman and if you prefer to argue against your own invented counterarguments you will help none but your own ego. The rest of us are disserved by this type of behavior. Additionally, your continued desire to use pejorative labels such as "cultural bigot" to discredit a person, rather than honestly examining what they have to say, is a further failure of logic and honesty. I will not accept that type of horseshit, to be frank.
This is another strawman. I did not say "their culture holds nothing of value." That is an obvious falsehood that is easily proven wrong. I said that their culture has been an absolute failure with respect to producing a successful society in the modern world. If this were not the case, the situation in Mexico would not be so dire. Mexico has a great deal of natural potential. If it makes you feel better, it doesn't mean that Mexican culture is somehow "worse," it simply is not doing the particular job of being successful in the modern world, with how it is now structured. It does not work, simple as that. It's not a judgement of "value" or "race," it's a simple apparent fact of the matter.
There are uniquely American cultural traits, they are what has produced the society in which we currently live. You are again arguing with your own strawmen, not me. I never said that Latino culture does not bring anything of value, you did. (see above.)
It does have traits which are "valuable," if you define "valuable" as promoting success in our particular system in the US. However, their culture as a whole, where it is indigenous (in Mexico) has not produced this success, it has produced massive failure. (Hence the state of Mexico).
This is why assimilation is important. The current situation does not encourage this assimilation, and it must be corrected, and corrected properly. Setting up many social programs to further this is one approach that may or may not work. Slowing the influx however, will absolutely prevent a situation in which so many Mexican people live in concentrated areas and retain their native language and culture, which has not served them in the modern system. This is not acceptable. Which is why I favor a lessening of the illegal immigration as a good first step.
I don't think it's especially necessary to address the ego-stroking when you again label one set of people "fearmongers screaming invasion" while identifying yourself as the individual who is "rational" and "reasonable."
Your doing this is even more bothersome given your failures to address my ideas properly in this exchange here. (see strawmen and ad hominems throughout)
That is what they said about the Irish, Italians, Chinese, Jews, etc... back in the day. Please show me that Mexicans or any other Hispanic group do not intergrate in our society after the 2nd or 3rd generations. If anything from what I've read and experinced 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic families intergrate and end up being just as productive and succesful as most native born Americans in this country. You can point to poverty stricken areas with 1st generation families all you want but from what I know after the 2nd to 3rd generation they are no less American or productive then any other group that has come to this country.
[/quote]
Of course they are no less productive et al. The worry is that if the situation continues, the "1st generation" situation will become standard throughout successive generations.
Only if racism continues to exist when whites become a minority would it be a problem for whites. As of now, racism does exist, towards whites, from whites, etcetra. I can easily pass for Italian, (given that I am) so it's not a huge concern for me directly, all I need is some sun.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
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Good old race card, using it to defend the invasion of a country.
I don?t give a damn what color they are, that?s entirely irrelevant but you?re quick to play it to your advantage. They are nationals of other countries moving up from the south by the tens of millions and they carry with them more poverty and social tension than our country can handle. Both create violence and poverty here. This has had a massive impact in the quality of life in the south west, especially California.
The pot is boiling right now, you?ll hide it with increased taxes to cover the increased burden, but all you?re doing is staving off the inevitable break down. This is going to explode into a bloody conflict.
Perhaps I misjudged your views on the issue, but I tend to loose my patience discussing this issue for the 100th time with people unwilling to listen and eager to get their panties in a bunch (see Jackalas' post below yours, where he did in fact use the term "invasion"). However, that's not your fault, and I appologize for any assumptions I made that weren't quite accurate. But for what it's worth, they WERE mistaken assumptions, not strawmen attacks, I can argue with you just fine without those thank you very much
And to be fair, YOU are not exactly innocent of that sort of thing either, I was not hiding behind a pretend racial/tolerance issue and I don't believe I ever suggested we should just ignore the problem and/or throw money at the illegal immigrants...and let's face it, your condescending lecture was not exactly free of ego-stroking either After reading your post, I think our views on the issue are actually a lot closer than you or I initially thought. I tend to support the idea of controlling immigration, uncontrolled immigration is NOT a good idea in the long or the short run...but I also think our current system needs to do more to let people in who want to be here and want to work. If a Mexican wants to become a hard working, tax paying American citizen, I think the barriers to doing so should be pretty low. However, control, even in that kind of situation, is a must. I also, you might be surprised to learn, disagree very much with the "teaching in Spanish" policy that is a big part of the California school system. I realize that it may be difficult for the adults to learn English, but there is no reason to essentially prevent the kids from doing so...and I think starting from the younger generation like that will encourage it in adults as well.
My only point, and something it's entirely possible you might realize already, was that there ARE reasonable solutions to the problems of illegal immigration. While you may not be among this group, you have to admit that there is an increasingly large and vocal group in the US that seems to be advocating a war on Mexican immigration, so to speak, and for whom fear of some sort of Mexican takeover is the primary motivator. I'm not quite sure we're at that point, I think there is still a lot of room for a more moderate approach.
If we DO get a "bloody conflict", it will be as much the fault of people like you as it will be the fault of the illegal immigrants. Groups like the atrociously named "minutemen" aren't very far off from vigilante groups hunting down Mexicans, illegal or not, and I don't think it will take very much to push them (and you) over that edge.
I think any sane person would agree that the border needs to be controlled and regulated so that we know who is coming in and who is going out and to enforce our laws and prevent people from being taken advantage of because they are in legal limbo.
His statement kind of proves my point. It's not just a border issue to some it goes much deeper then this IMHO. For these guys it a racial/culture issue and the fear of change.
The real heart of the issue for some I fear is about keeping the majority the majority irregardless of the the condition of the border and limiting if not stoping any and all immigration. This is has been an old debate that has gone on for many years with other immigrant groups serving as a scape goats for all the woes our country faced/faces. Fortunetly as time goes on and the world gets smaller and smaller via technology and the increasing and growing world economy their points of view will be as outdated as the average socially relgious conservative Middle-Easterners views on womens roles in a society.
Agreed, border control is a definite must...I think people just disagree on the amount of control necessary.
As for the rest of it, I really do think there is an element of keeping our cultural makeup the same, even if people aren't admitting it. Every once in a while it slips by, usually with some off-the-cuff comment about keeping our "European heritage" or some KKK sounding crap. I'm not going to say that all, or even most, of the people worried about illegal immigration fall into that group, but it IS a part of that movement.
Wow! I see the tinfoilerz are really out in force trolling this thread. You know that bunch. They're the aluminumized bunch who say illegal aliens have a right to be here because they are just seeking the American dream.
BS. All of it.
Here's the reality about the illegal alien invasion. The only difference between them and aliens from some other Galaxy is they speak spanish or some other native Earth gibberish. Our Planet would not benefit from an influx of hundreds of millions of rejects from the far off planet of Zantar or whatever. Neither will the USA benefit from an influx of tens of millions of Mexican rejects.
Those of you always gabbering like baboonz about the USA needing 36 million cowards are full of BS. Every Nation on the planet has laws that control immigration. Even Mexico. Check out Mexico's immigration laws. They are some of the most harsh and viscious on Earth. They set the most disgusting double-standard on this issue imaginable.
Here's how you stop the current invasion. Kick out the 36 million aliens now here just like Eisenhower booted them all out in the 1950's during that invasion. Make the Scumlordz who are running Mexico and stealing all of it's wealth pay for it. If they don't, declare war on Mexico, invade it, occupy it and straighten that stinking mess out over there once and for all.
Did you realize that Mexico has 3 times the resource wealth of the lower 48 States? Where is all that wealth being diverted too? Why are 1% of Mexicans living like pompous royalty while the other 99% feed out of dumpsters and sleep in cardboard boxes? The people in poverty south of the border just don't have the courage to stand up as real men and right the wrongs in their own homeland. Cowards to a man, women and child. They want to flee to the USA where our Liberty has already been payed for by the courage of our Revolutionary war in 1770's America.
Mexico has the potential to triple the standard of living of every one of it's citizens than that of the USA. Our rejects would be crossing over from the USA into Mexico by the millions.
So now we go back to the current reality. Let's look at what has already come and still is flooding into the USA now. Freeloaders, loafers, rapists, murderers, gangbangers and their diseased. Their cowardly mass. That's what Vincente' Fox is giving to the USA. There are a few good Mexicans in that horde, ...sure. Maybe 10% who actually could contribute something. They should stand in line to get in like everyone else at our Immigration Service Offices. If we determine we could use more immigrants then let them in. If not tough. Stay out. The door is closed for a very good reason. Our American dream is being protected.
I'm not a cruel person. I'm a very humane person. I don't want to harm a single Mexican, black, chinese or whatever else is here illegally. Just don't feed me your BS that i'm supposed to love it when i read of the rapes, shootings, thefts and dopewarz all due to the uncontrolled USA Borders?
Do we have a deal? Speaking to the tinfoilerz now. Not my fellow loyal Americans.
BS. All of it.
Here's the reality about the illegal alien invasion. The only difference between them and aliens from some other Galaxy is they speak spanish or some other native Earth gibberish. Our Planet would not benefit from an influx of hundreds of millions of rejects from the far off planet of Zantar or whatever. Neither will the USA benefit from an influx of tens of millions of Mexican rejects.
Those of you always gabbering like baboonz about the USA needing 36 million cowards are full of BS. Every Nation on the planet has laws that control immigration. Even Mexico. Check out Mexico's immigration laws. They are some of the most harsh and viscious on Earth. They set the most disgusting double-standard on this issue imaginable.
Here's how you stop the current invasion. Kick out the 36 million aliens now here just like Eisenhower booted them all out in the 1950's during that invasion. Make the Scumlordz who are running Mexico and stealing all of it's wealth pay for it. If they don't, declare war on Mexico, invade it, occupy it and straighten that stinking mess out over there once and for all.
Did you realize that Mexico has 3 times the resource wealth of the lower 48 States? Where is all that wealth being diverted too? Why are 1% of Mexicans living like pompous royalty while the other 99% feed out of dumpsters and sleep in cardboard boxes? The people in poverty south of the border just don't have the courage to stand up as real men and right the wrongs in their own homeland. Cowards to a man, women and child. They want to flee to the USA where our Liberty has already been payed for by the courage of our Revolutionary war in 1770's America.
Mexico has the potential to triple the standard of living of every one of it's citizens than that of the USA. Our rejects would be crossing over from the USA into Mexico by the millions.
So now we go back to the current reality. Let's look at what has already come and still is flooding into the USA now. Freeloaders, loafers, rapists, murderers, gangbangers and their diseased. Their cowardly mass. That's what Vincente' Fox is giving to the USA. There are a few good Mexicans in that horde, ...sure. Maybe 10% who actually could contribute something. They should stand in line to get in like everyone else at our Immigration Service Offices. If we determine we could use more immigrants then let them in. If not tough. Stay out. The door is closed for a very good reason. Our American dream is being protected.
I'm not a cruel person. I'm a very humane person. I don't want to harm a single Mexican, black, chinese or whatever else is here illegally. Just don't feed me your BS that i'm supposed to love it when i read of the rapes, shootings, thefts and dopewarz all due to the uncontrolled USA Borders?
Do we have a deal? Speaking to the tinfoilerz now. Not my fellow loyal Americans.
So what revisionist version of history suits you best Thump553?
Russian gulags on the northwest Canadien border?
France or British or french/british split North America?
Mix and match it Thump553.
Just choose something besides a North American Indian controlled continant because first of all, most of the many seperate tribes hated each other's guts and genocided each other on a regular basis. Second of all, since no alliance of Native Americans was ever possible, no amount of revisionism could put them any higher today than where they currently are. Which is equal citizens of the 50 States plus seperate Nation status within our USA borders.
Rather than Alaska being Russian owned, it's Native American owned on a percentage basis now thanks to the 44 million acres they have from the 1972 Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. They have maybe 10% of the State. Sure they are in the USA still but i've been there and they live probably freer than anyone else in the World under our protection as the most powerful Nation in the world today. Canadien Native Indians are in great shape as well. Compare their situation to anywhere on any other Continant and i challenge you to find a better living arrangement other than perhaps New Zealand or some other South Pacific paradises. Anyhow we're talking about large land masses and no less than that.
So spin another clever anti-American web Thump553. I'm keeping a cordial tone to everyone else. The America haterz are just another group we all deal with here regularly.
...next tinfoiler.
QFT. And this isn't about protecting culture, heritage yada yada because I'm not even of European descent and my grandparents WERE immigrants that came here legally. It's about the illegal invasion of criminals across an unchecked border that has caused a visible disruption in our cities and neighborhoods. Just as a personal example, the neighborhood my parents used to live in was initially a nice quiet middle class one until large families of Mexicans started moving in and along with them came their illegal relatives that would drop by. Soon as that happened, we were graced with grafitti all over the neighborhood, trash and cars being stolen from peoples driveways. Furthermore, we know of a few Indian people who were killed running their convenience stores by Mexican illegals so those of you living in the comfortable and isolated suburbs of Maryland have no idea what's going on here in California but you will soon enough.
You know, that tirade might sound a LITTLE bit better if you had every done a damn thing to deserve living here other than being born here. And I'd be dollars to donuts that's the case.
That's not to say we don't need immigration reform, and immigration controls, but there is only one person with a tinfoil hat here...and *I'm* not the one acting like this is going to tear the fabric of the universe apart.
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