Message To Big Pharms: Lying To The Public For Profit Will Backfire

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Vioxx was BETTER than Celebrex but neither was EVER approved by FDA for long-term (years) treatment. The scope of this problem is difficult to explain to people that lack general knowledge of FDA approval process or cardiovascular/cerebrovascular disease pathophysiology.

1) Most FDA drugs are approved based on short-term (several months) efficacy and safety studies through 3 phases. The few caveats have evolved from disasters. Due to the FenPhen debacle weight loss drugs are required to have 1-2yr safety data. Arguably, our next Wonder Drug (rimonabant) would be melting fat, stopping smoking, and cutting the ganja habit of millions of Americans already if not for questionable postmarket practices by others.

Despite being short-term trials that were NOT powered to PROVE CV safety, Merck aggressively marketed Vioxx to clinicians serving patients with high pre-existing risk of CV events. Yeah, your knees hurt but strokes and MIs kill. The troubling data was evident in at least one pre-approval study. Despite excluding people with significant CV risk, there was clear signal of increases morbidity and mortality.

In fact even the GI bleeds were reduced solely in comparison to high dose ibuprofen. Ibuprofen was indeed a standard therapy but it was also chosen b/c bleed risk is significantly higher than naproxen . . . ie drug companies always want their drug to look as good as possible.

Drug companies brag about safety data but the pre-approval dbase for Vioxx was 5000 patients. After approval Vioxx continued GI bleed trials since the earlier ones really didn't show a clinically significant improvement. It's a substantive distinction often lost on the general public that statistically significant differences often don't mean jack in the real world.

Anyway the VIGOR study was larger than all previous Vioxx trials combined. Naturally, it was for a new indication (rheumatoid) and it was now being compared to naproxen. But due to the fact they were now using more "typical" patients (instead of "ideal" premarket subjects), the real effects of VIOXX became apparent. Both long-term and mod/high dose Vioxx was clearly unsafe for general use.

Unfortunately, FDA/Merck settled for mediocre labelling revisions that few doctors read. Merck even argued (Feb 2001) the 5x increase in MI risk was due to a protective effect of naproxen. Even FDA didn't buy that one. In the FDA's defense, the true scope of Vioxx morbidity/mortality was not apparent . . . primarily b/c we have one of the weakest postmarket surveillance systems amongst developed nations.

Merck (MRK), on the otherhand, informed it's battalion of drug reps to avoid discussing the Advisory panel or results of the VIGOR study with MDs.

2) Once a drug is approved, that's when the real experiment starts. The truth is we really don't know how any particular person will respond to a drug. Sometimes we get lucky (say SSRIs) where even if the drug is overprescribed and overdosed . . . you pretty much have to swallow the bottle (the one it came in) to kill somebody.

Unfortunately, the consumers are barraged with DTC (direct to consumer) ads that scarcely resemble the product being advertised. They certainly fail to inform on practical issues of risk/benefit. That leads us to #3.

3) In a perfect world, knowledgable doctors would correctly diagnose their patients (100% accuracy) and select the most appropriate treatment based on that diagnosis AND individual patient characteristics. I want to believe it happens most of the time, hopefully overwelmingly so. But available evidence implies that isn't necessarily the case. Many clinicians are NOT aware of the basic pharmacology of the drugs they prescribe. Far too many rely on drug rep hype, what's in the sample closet, or a luncheon/dinner given by a peer (hosted by the drug companies). Even our conferences are underwritten by pharmaceutical companies. Admittedly, the food is universally good . . . I mean REAL good.

When you combine #1 (a process that was NEVER intended to test drugs under the "real world" conditions in which it would be used), #2 (ignorant public and bottomline driven companies), and #3 (arguably ignorance and duplicity amongst physicians) . . . you get Vioxx, Celebrex, Bextra, Lotronex, Serzone, Rezulin, and others.

IMO, all of these drugs should STILL be on the market. But FDA and the respective manufacturers mishandled the research, approval process, postmarket surveillance, and marketing of these medications. Yet, they still needed an ignorant public and weak doctors to create these "success" stories.
 

RichPLS

Senior member
Nov 21, 2004
477
0
0
Tort reform is wonderful isn't it. Everyone wins except for the victims. Reform designed and written by attorneys to limit damages to victims who allegedly were harmed in some way and are seeking compensation, which laws leave this up to a jury to decide (fair trail by the people for the people), yet blame of course falls on these victims, so lets limit monetary awards to them and carefully construct reform so victims get less yet attorneys get theirs as do big corporations are spared these costs.

I think that prescription drugs should not be marketed to the public, via television and magazine ads. Advertising in medical journals and publications geared towards the medical profession is fine.

I see no problem with having the data freely available at Dr's offices, internet RX sites, publications geared towards the medical profession and such.

The reason is that they entice people to try this new and improved medicine, and that is the Dr.'s job.
Advertise if you will to the Dr., not the patient.

Advertising to the public gets the average patient to hear the so called best case claims, and thus they ask Dr. for that type of drug advertised on TV.
Of course the Dr. can prescribe differntly, but if it could help, but there are better alternatives, many Dr.'s will prescribe it to appease patient, since there is a chance it will work and many times an alternative suggestion can dissapoint the patient.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: RichPLS
I think that prescription drugs should not be marketed to the public, via television and magazine ads. Advertising in medical journals and publications geared towards the medical profession is fine.

I see no problem with having the data freely available at Dr's offices, internet RX sites, publications geared towards the medical profession and such.

The reason is that they entice people to try this new and improved medicine, and that is the Dr.'s job.
Advertise if you will to the Dr., not the patient.

Advertising to the public gets the average patient to hear the so called best case claims, and thus they ask Dr. for that type of drug advertised on TV.
Of course the Dr. can prescribe differntly, but if it could help, but there are better alternatives, many Dr.'s will prescribe it to appease patient, since there is a chance it will work and many times an alternative suggestion can dissapoint the patient.


Hello and welcome to about five years ago and before...what you suggest is what used to be the case, however Doctors would favor some brands over others due to "perks" and what not, thus companies figured it would better to let the "customer" know that there are other options out there than just what their family physician suggests.

Personally as a consumer with access to the wealth of info on the net I would much rather know of the drugs available out there than just going off what my Dr. suggests....Dr's like everyone else aren't perfect, not saying I am but knowing your options is never a bad thing.
 

RichPLS

Senior member
Nov 21, 2004
477
0
0
Hello and welcome to about five years ago and before...what you suggest is what used to be the case, however Doctors would favor some brands over others due to "perks" and what not, thus companies figured it would better to let the "customer" know that there are other options out there than just what their family physician suggests.

I am not saying that the drug information should not be made available.
I just do not think it should be advertised on TV ads.

If you wish to search for drug info, it is online.

I just think that by pushing pills on TV encourages this type of lawsuits since patients hear the positive effects and gloss over the negative ones.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
71
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Bah, the drug industry is still profits over people. Has been that way for decades.

Let's see, a billion dollars for R&D, or a billion dollars to advertise dick pills on TV. That's an easy choice.

:thumbsup:
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
As for these "drugs" not being effective. Thats not true, the class of drugs were the most effective, of non-narcotics, for those suffering from arthritis or other forms of chronic pain.
I don't know why this stuff keeps cropping up. As a class, COX-2 inhibitors were NOT more effective than other NSAIDS (aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen) for the treatment of pain. There were indeed some patients that demonstrated superior pain control with COX2Is but it was a small minority.

As Hayabusa Rider noted, the primary benefit of COX2Is was the reduction in GI bleeds. The primary problem was that virtually all of the approved COX2Is struggled to consistently show a benefit in this regard compared to other NSAIDS.

The reasons MRK/PFE got away with GI bleed claims:
1) FDA regulatory division bites (although they did warn MRK in 2001 and force label revisions)
2) Drug companies sponsor studies that measure 20 different outcomes. They then publish (and publicize) the two items that favor their drug compared to a competitor. Bad science but it's how the game is played.
3) MDs bought the story, gave copious samples, patients reported favorably, and MDs wrote more 'scripts.

Apparently, some of you do not understand the scope of the Vioxx problem. The largest study was the VIGOR trial. People taking naproxen had a heart attack (MI) rate of 0.1% (1/1000). The rofexcoxib rate was 0.5%. If such results had been available pre-approval Vioxx would have gotten a black box warning and justifiably so.

When you factor in that women (over 45) are more likely to have osteoarthritis than men and are several times more likely to die from their FIRST MI . . . just wait 'til NOW gets ahold of MRK.

In the final analysis, MRK did this to themselves. Granted, the weak FDA and ignorant MDs were willing accomplices.

Possible good outcomes:
1) Dramatic reduction in direct to consumer advertising: FDA fiat or Big Pharma pinching pennies . . . either way DTC was/is a bad idea. It diverts billions each year from R&D (or increases the price of drugs), promotes excess drug consumption, and provides another source of unrealistic expectations in healthcare.

2) FDA resumes it's primary role as a regulator for the protection of the public versus Big Pharma "Yes" man.

3) Public takes a more active role in asking their MDs about risks and benefits of ALL treatments.

4) MDs take a more active role in learning about the risks and benefits of ALL treatments . . . instead of relying on drug luncheons, "carnival" conferences, and leggy drug reps. Yeah, there's guys and ugly women in the business . . . but the women that were easy on the eyes got more face time.