Meritocracy

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,878
33,954
136
We are seeing the patronage system making a comeback under Trump, replacing the meritocracy required under current law. There have been more than few posts here blasting the concept of meritocracy as being based on the background of the incumbent writing the job requirements and not on any objective measure of suitability for doing the job. My question is, what criteria should we use to fill government jobs?
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,903
30,709
136
We are seeing the patronage system making a comeback under Trump, replacing the meritocracy required under current law. There have been more than few posts here blasting the concept of meritocracy as being based on the background of the incumbent writing the job requirements and not on any objective measure of suitability for doing the job. My question is, what criteria should we use to fill government jobs?
Ability
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,087
12,299
136
Up until dipshit took office we had civil service exams for example.
The civil service system up until about 15 years ago, was so ridiculous in their documentation requirements. I would literally see people with huge loose leaf notebooks full of all of their records go before a board for a new job or promotion. As a person who only worked in the private sector, if you showed up with that for an interview I would tell to go home and summarize everything in 2 pages or less. Fortunately, or unfortunately, they changed over to some sort of phrase or word matching system that would advance you if you used the right magic words (a bit of an exaggeration) you could get your interview.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,643
15,831
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The civil service system up until about 15 years ago, was so ridiculous in their documentation requirements. I would literally see people with huge loose leaf notebooks full of all of their records go before a board for a new job or promotion. As a person who only worked in the private sector, if you showed up with that for an interview I would tell to go home and summarize everything in 2 pages or less. Fortunately, or unfortunately, they changed over to some sort of phrase or word matching system that would advance you if you used the right magic words (a bit of an exaggeration) you could get your interview.
My USAJOBS resume is like 12 pages. Just logged in again and it says they now won’t accept anything over 2 pages.

🤔
 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,631
2,026
126
We are seeing the patronage system making a comeback under Trump, replacing the meritocracy required under current law. There have been more than few posts here blasting the concept of meritocracy as being based on the background of the incumbent writing the job requirements and not on any objective measure of suitability for doing the job. My question is, what criteria should we use to fill government jobs?
I think the complaints are loaded with myth.

Maybe I'm distilling 30 years of experience as "understanding". I could even be wrong, but I think I'm more likely right than wrong.

Cabinet agencies require an enabling "charter" passed by Congress.

Among each agency's "purpose for existence", various statutes -- laws would've been passed which have some sort of objective -- outright enforcement, aid to state and local government with strings attached, the purchase of military hardware under reasonable contract selection and progress guidelines . . . the list would go on and on.

These laws generally require "regulations", or the translation of the statutes into specific requirements for action and execution, review and control, all the various things which become job descriptions for individual civil servants. And generally, the regulations are written and revised by a cabinet-agency's Office of General Counsel, which changes with each successive administration.

The job descriptions are then posted; applications are accepted; panels of existing civil servants review the applications; a selection process is hopefully pursued to completion.

Meanwhile, performance measures -- whatever can be quantified -- are drafted and approved along with the job descriptions. Performance Appraisals are issued periodically for this or that employee. There is an oversight and control mechanism to assure that the Law is fulfilled, the regulations are followed, and goals and results are pursued and completed.

A General Accounting Office and a Congressional Budget Office -- among other entities -- periodically checks and measures the benefits against the costs of following the Laws we have been talking about.

I agree that this personnel system is corruptible. Position descriptions can be written to accept minimal educational and other indicators in the job selection process. The outcomes of personnel selection can be influenced or overridden through political influence.

But wherever it was deemed essential to hold skill and experience over the other factors, it was more likely done that way as opposed to what Trump's people are trying to do now. All of his cabinet-level selections are obvious and demoralizing examples of people totally unprepared to do their jobs on behalf of the Constitution and the People. And NONE of those people have in mind any serious custodial effort to make their departments actually succeed at what they do, unless it has some personal value to -- you guessed it -- the sociopath, criminal, rapist and delusional President of the United States.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,087
12,299
136
I think the complaints are loaded with myth.

Maybe I'm distilling 30 years of experience as "understanding". I could even be wrong, but I think I'm more likely right than wrong.

Cabinet agencies require an enabling "charter" passed by Congress.

Among each agency's "purpose for existence", various statutes -- laws would've been passed which have some sort of objective -- outright enforcement, aid to state and local government with strings attached, the purchase of military hardware under reasonable contract selection and progress guidelines . . . the list would go on and on.

These laws generally require "regulations", or the translation of the statutes into specific requirements for action and execution, review and control, all the various things which become job descriptions for individual civil servants. And generally, the regulations are written and revised by a cabinet-agency's Office of General Counsel, which changes with each successive administration.

The job descriptions are then posted; applications are accepted; panels of existing civil servants review the applications; a selection process is hopefully pursued to completion.

Meanwhile, performance measures -- whatever can be quantified -- are drafted and approved along with the job descriptions. Performance Appraisals are issued periodically for this or that employee. There is an oversight and control mechanism to assure that the Law is fulfilled, the regulations are followed, and goals and results are pursued and completed.

A General Accounting Office and a Congressional Budget Office -- among other entities -- periodically checks and measures the benefits against the costs of following the Laws we have been talking about.

I agree that this personnel system is corruptible. Position descriptions can be written to accept minimal educational and other indicators in the job selection process. The outcomes of personnel selection can be influenced or overridden through political influence.

But wherever it was deemed essential to hold skill and experience over the other factors, it was more likely done that way as opposed to what Trump's people are trying to do now. All of his cabinet-level selections are obvious and demoralizing examples of people totally unprepared to do their jobs on behalf of the Constitution and the People. And NONE of those people have in mind any serious custodial effort to make their departments actually succeed at what they do, unless it has some personal value to -- you guessed it -- the sociopath, criminal, rapist and delusional President of the United States.
Well, when you work in a DOD environment, there are mostly veterans that apply for those jobs as they get special move to the front of the line privileges. I was in a situation where I applied to work at the shop I was a tech rep for and was basically excepted, and then I was asked where's your military record and I informed them that I was never in the military and that was the end of getting that job. Fortunately, it all worked out in the end, I was going crazy writing tech manuals in Anaheim at the home office and I had a talk with my supervisor that I can't do this anymore, and he says, hey, I got you signed up to take your old bosses job, because he's retiring. So I was back and in charge!

Edit: Vets get privileges for almost all government jobs, and I really have no problem with that. DOD is just cuckoo for vets.
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,298
12,862
136
As the old saying goes in Civil Service:

Its not who you know, Its who you blow.
What's with conservatives obsession with sex? do you have some kinks you need to work out in the literal sense? And you're just taking it out on the rest of the fucking country because you can't accept that part of yourself, lest you alienate every other conservative who secretly feels the same way?
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,360
4,976
136
What's with conservatives obsession with sex? do you have some kinks you need to work out in the literal sense? And you're just taking it out on the rest of the fucking country because you can't accept that part of yourself, lest you alienate every other conservative who secretly feels the same way?

LOL.

That saying goes back as far as I remember. Predates me by a lot.

Did you ever work in the government or civil service or military. If so it's hard to believe you never heard it before.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,339
9,715
136
Sounds great. Now how do we evaluate applicants ability in order to select one for a job?

-Past job performance.

Honestly the whole civil service should be a ladder, an honest to God career track like most jobs in the world.

You start at the bottom, gain knowledge, perform well, rank up, etc.

In only rare or extreme circumstances should anyone be nominated in.

Hell even "elected" positions would ideally work this way, with President being the endpoint for the executive Mayor > Governor > President pipeline while the same would apply to Council > State Rep/Senator > Federal Rep/Senator etc.

You have to demonstrate functional solutions and success in your current role to even have a shot at the next step up.
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,298
12,862
136
LOL.

That saying goes back as far as I remember. Predates me by a lot.

Did you ever work in the government or civil service or military. If so it's hard to believe you never heard it before.
yes i worked for the navy as a civilian. and no one ever said anything like that, ever.

now, if you're talking about "it's not what you know, it's who you know" then that is a very common phrase.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,631
2,026
126
-Past job performance.

Honestly the whole civil service should be a ladder, an honest to God career track like most jobs in the world.

You start at the bottom, gain knowledge, perform well, rank up, etc.

In only rare or extreme circumstances should anyone be nominated in.

Hell even "elected" positions would ideally work this way, with President being the endpoint for the executive Mayor > Governor > President pipeline while the same would apply to Council > State Rep/Senator > Federal Rep/Senator etc.

You have to demonstrate functional solutions and success in your current role to even have a shot at the next step up.
And so such was the intention of the career service as we knew it or know it. It can be corrupted and it can be renewed.

Around 1984, one of the senior staff down the hall from me had two college interns, assigned to do some of the routine work of the division. They spent their summer months "getting to know" the civil service. A wider application of that idea would be beneficial to society as a whole.

What has happened since January should have criminal aspects -- the outright firings, the compromise of citizen information -- much of the outrageous stuff that the cabinet secretaries and their assistants have done to damage their agencies or institutions. People should be held criminally responsible for violating the guard rails and ignoring the Merit System Protection Board, the FLRA or similar entities which supposedly protect the civil service.
 

dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,122
934
136
LOL.

That saying goes back as far as I remember. Predates me by a lot.

Did you ever work in the government or civil service or military. If so it's hard to believe you never heard it before.
The only time I heard it was from a misogynist who didn't like women in the workforce.
 
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